quote:

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Originally posted by MasterWolf:
He's not my buddy. I just have honestly never had a problem buying from his site for 2 years and I feel like everyone ganged up on him and basically trashed his whole rep because he made a mistake or because of this one screw up. I would have said the same thing if you had come on here and trashed SCG or Coolstuff or Gunslinga. I never meant to sit here and have to defend the dude all day. I just wanted to mention that there might have been another side to the story and then I got attacked like it was me who was doing something wrong. Jesus. It's not even all that big of a freaking deal and yet everyone is ready to lynch someone.

Look at my first post. I said I had dealt with him before and he seemed like a pretty nice guy. Then I got attacked as if I was stealing money or something. Yeash.

---

__________________
There's no need to fear, UNDERDOG is here!

All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

Report rules violations.

nder: Because, as I've been trying to say from the very beginning, I've been doing business for years and NOT having a problem. So of course I will use them in the future. Just cause Viper had a problem this one time does not define someone. I don't judge people that quickly.

Businesses can operate however the heck they want. If I don't like it, they won't get my business. The only point I was making the whole daggum thread was that maybe he ran out of product rather than was trying to screw Viper, and that we shouldn't jump to conclusions and judgement at the drop of a hat.

I for one will continue to use their site because I have never had any problems. I no longer care what anyone else does.

You are a Canadian, and so I recommend that you file a suit with the Office of Consumer Protection. No doubt they're an American-based company, and so the Office will likely have very little clout. Still, you were verbally abused (that alone is sufficient for a case), and cheated on your order.

Like I said, it's entirely possible that not much will happen. But you will have at least signalled this business to the Office, and the Office may decide to put them on their blacklist. In this way, a maximum number of people would be notified.

Of course, in the best case scenario, they can actually do something about the case. While the store might be able to wriggle out of the cards, they are still liable for the verbal abuse.

But again, the Department of Consumer Affairs is best placed to advise you, and to handle to situation. Fill out one of their forms, and send an email to them with all relevant information (emails, order confirmation, archived versions of this thread [if you need them, I've saved them so that nobody can wriggle out], etc.). Be very clear about the wrongs that were done to you, and the restitution that you expect (even if it's unlikely that you'll get it). Then CC whatever contact email address AR Games uses.

That's your best bet.

__________________
"I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.
I do not think they will sing to me."
-T.S. Eliot

The only path to victory in the “war on terror” is the moral high ground. Sadly, it's buried beneath the rubble of your nation.

But you guys are crucifying this guy and his business because he made ONE mistake. When did we start playing 1 strike and youre out? Whats eventually going to happen is you find something wrong with EVERY SINGLE MAGIC DEALER and do the same thing to all of them. Who ya gonna buy cards from then?

I personally would buy from this guy if i bought cards from dealers because its not like he stole from Viper. He had an inventory malfunction and then a lapse in good manners. He is a person, hes fallable JUST LIKE ALL OF YOU. If he took his money and didnt give it back thats one thing. Viper is out nothing except a good deal.

Lastly, Id like to point out that you guys are chastising him for his rude manners/poor customer service BUT you did the exact same thing. Instead of giving someone the benefit of the doubt you blasted him(with exception of masterwolf). Is one mistake really worth ruining someones life OR business over?

*gets off soapbox*

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hooskdaddy:
Wow. This whole thread has made me want to close my website immediately. Im not even joking. If this is the cross-section of the MTG community and how they treat people who try to offer cards to the community(even if for profit) then i think its time to get out.
While I agree that Jims reaction to Viper was uncalled for, Viper also overreacted. But where is the Better Customer Bureau?
As someone who both owns a website AND sets up at premier events, I can attest that it is very difficult to keep your inventory accurate if you dont have 2 seperate inventories(1 for show, 1 for website). Mistakes DO happen.
Now if he chose not to sell them to him because he wanted to make more money I agree thats kinda shady. But if he was truly out then it happens. Get over it already. BTW, Whatever happened to taking someones word when they tell you "so and so happened". When did we become so GD paranoid to think there arent trustworthy people in this business or anywhere for that matter?

But you guys are crucifying this guy and his business because he made ONE mistake. When did we start playing 1 strike and youre out? Whats eventually going to happen is you find something wrong with EVERY SINGLE MAGIC DEALER and do the same thing to all of them. Who ya gonna buy cards from then?

I personally would buy from this guy if i bought cards from dealers because its not like he stole from Viper. He had an inventory malfunction and then a lapse in good manners. He is a person, hes fallable JUST LIKE ALL OF YOU. If he took his money and didnt give it back thats one thing. Viper is out nothing except a good deal.

Lastly, Id like to point out that you guys are chastising him for his rude manners/poor customer service BUT you did the exact same thing. Instead of giving someone the benefit of the doubt you blasted him(with exception of masterwolf). Is one mistake really worth ruining someones life OR business over?

*gets off soapbox*

And no, I WASNT joking. Im seriously considering giving up my website because of this thread. Its a pretty freaking thankless job.

---

When I was actively dealing I got a lot of thanks.

This isn't an isolated incident - you are giving him by far too much benefit of doubt.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hooskdaddy:
Wow. This whole thread has made me want to close my website immediately. Im not even joking. If this is the cross-section of the MTG community and how they treat people who try to offer cards to the community(even if for profit) then i think its time to get out.
While I agree that Jims reaction to Viper was uncalled for, Viper also overreacted. But where is the Better Customer Bureau?
As someone who both owns a website AND sets up at premier events, I can attest that it is very difficult to keep your inventory accurate if you dont have 2 seperate inventories(1 for show, 1 for website). Mistakes DO happen.
Now if he chose not to sell them to him because he wanted to make more money I agree thats kinda shady. But if he was truly out then it happens. Get over it already. BTW, Whatever happened to taking someones word when they tell you "so and so happened". When did we become so GD paranoid to think there arent trustworthy people in this business or anywhere for that matter?

But you guys are crucifying this guy and his business because he made ONE mistake. When did we start playing 1 strike and youre out? Whats eventually going to happen is you find something wrong with EVERY SINGLE MAGIC DEALER and do the same thing to all of them. Who ya gonna buy cards from then?

I personally would buy from this guy if i bought cards from dealers because its not like he stole from Viper. He had an inventory malfunction and then a lapse in good manners. He is a person, hes fallable JUST LIKE ALL OF YOU. If he took his money and didnt give it back thats one thing. Viper is out nothing except a good deal.

Lastly, Id like to point out that you guys are chastising him for his rude manners/poor customer service BUT you did the exact same thing. Instead of giving someone the benefit of the doubt you blasted him(with exception of masterwolf). Is one mistake really worth ruining someones life OR business over?

*gets off soapbox*

And no, I WASNT joking. Im seriously considering giving up my website because of this thread. Its a pretty freaking thankless job.

---

i am not sure where people get the idea that selling cards through a website is a piece of cake.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hooskdaddy:
Wow. This whole thread has made me want to close my website immediately. Im not even joking. If this is the cross-section of the MTG community and how they treat people who try to offer cards to the community(even if for profit) then i think its time to get out.
While I agree that Jims reaction to Viper was uncalled for, Viper also overreacted. But where is the Better Customer Bureau?
As someone who both owns a website AND sets up at premier events, I can attest that it is very difficult to keep your inventory accurate if you dont have 2 seperate inventories(1 for show, 1 for website). Mistakes DO happen.
Now if he chose not to sell them to him because he wanted to make more money I agree thats kinda shady. But if he was truly out then it happens. Get over it already. BTW, Whatever happened to taking someones word when they tell you "so and so happened". When did we become so GD paranoid to think there arent trustworthy people in this business or anywhere for that matter?

But you guys are crucifying this guy and his business because he made ONE mistake. When did we start playing 1 strike and youre out? Whats eventually going to happen is you find something wrong with EVERY SINGLE MAGIC DEALER and do the same thing to all of them. Who ya gonna buy cards from then?

I personally would buy from this guy if i bought cards from dealers because its not like he stole from Viper. He had an inventory malfunction and then a lapse in good manners. He is a person, hes fallable JUST LIKE ALL OF YOU. If he took his money and didnt give it back thats one thing. Viper is out nothing except a good deal.

Lastly, Id like to point out that you guys are chastising him for his rude manners/poor customer service BUT you did the exact same thing. Instead of giving someone the benefit of the doubt you blasted him(with exception of masterwolf). Is one mistake really worth ruining someones life OR business over?

*gets off soapbox*

And no, I WASNT joking. Im seriously considering giving up my website because of this thread. Its a pretty freaking thankless job.

---

Sounds to me like you can't handle customer complaints, in which case i strongly advise you to get out of business. Not just this one, but all business. You have no place.

And yes, I do operate on a one strike and you're out deal. If a business screws up and fails to compensate for that screw up, they don't deserve my business. Period, end of. Hell, even McDonald's and Long John Silver's will give you something free if they screw up- and without the cussing! That's their way of saying "We messed up. We admit it. Please understand we try to make you happy so you'll come back and buy more stuff later."

You also fail to realize that, if this were a US citizen against a US firm, he would have a case to challenge Jim on false advertising. He put up a price, said cards were available at that price, then failed to deliver. Since his e-mails make no indication that he had sold out, and evidence (the fact that they're still listed on his site, at a higher price) suggests that he was not out, Jim's only real case is "Why are we in court over a $29 discrepancy?" It's a weak defense.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hooskdaddy:
Wow. This whole thread has made me want to close my website immediately. Im not even joking. If this is the cross-section of the MTG community and how they treat people who try to offer cards to the community(even if for profit) then i think its time to get out.
While I agree that Jims reaction to Viper was uncalled for, Viper also overreacted. But where is the Better Customer Bureau?
As someone who both owns a website AND sets up at premier events, I can attest that it is very difficult to keep your inventory accurate if you dont have 2 seperate inventories(1 for show, 1 for website). Mistakes DO happen.
Now if he chose not to sell them to him because he wanted to make more money I agree thats kinda shady. But if he was truly out then it happens. Get over it already. BTW, Whatever happened to taking someones word when they tell you "so and so happened". When did we become so GD paranoid to think there arent trustworthy people in this business or anywhere for that matter?

But you guys are crucifying this guy and his business because he made ONE mistake. When did we start playing 1 strike and youre out? Whats eventually going to happen is you find something wrong with EVERY SINGLE MAGIC DEALER and do the same thing to all of them. Who ya gonna buy cards from then?

I personally would buy from this guy if i bought cards from dealers because its not like he stole from Viper. He had an inventory malfunction and then a lapse in good manners. He is a person, hes fallable JUST LIKE ALL OF YOU. If he took his money and didnt give it back thats one thing. Viper is out nothing except a good deal.

Lastly, Id like to point out that you guys are chastising him for his rude manners/poor customer service BUT you did the exact same thing. Instead of giving someone the benefit of the doubt you blasted him(with exception of masterwolf). Is one mistake really worth ruining someones life OR business over?

*gets off soapbox*

And no, I WASNT joking. Im seriously considering giving up my website because of this thread. Its a pretty freaking thankless job.

---

I think you're grossly misunderstanding why people are so upset at the website. Yeah, mistakes happen, and if they were truly out of stock, that's understandable. I don't for a minute believe that to be the case, as there is no evidence at all to hint at that, but that's neither here nor there. It's what happened after the order was placed that things went to hell in a handbasket. What should have happened at that point is an email to the effect of "Oops, sorry, we're out of stock on that item, our bad, we have to cancel" or even "Oops, we don't have our crap together and didn't bother to raise the price properly, and so we'll be weasels and cancel the order and make you pay a much higher price for said cards. Sucks to be you." Neither of those things happened, just a simple "order canceled" with no explanation. When the inevitable question of why the order was canceled, the first question they asked was if they ordered the $20 Vampires for $3 each, indicating that they knew full well it was a misprice and they still failed to even hint that it was an out of stock problem, suggesting to anyone with half a brain that it was solely for price reasons, but still refusing to actually explain themselves. Upon further questioning and pointing out the bad business practices therein, and asking if the order would still be honored, in a relatively civil tone, and when being told no, simply informed them that they would be passing on the story about such disappointing customer service, the store went into a completely disgusting tirade that was utterly unwarranted in the first place. These are the reasons that the store is rightfully being flamed, not for some simple mistake in inventory.

Bottom line, don't be a complete and utter d-bag and treat people like crap, and you have nothing to worry about.

__________________
There's no need to fear, UNDERDOG is here!

All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

Report rules violations.

Hooksdaddy: I am not a big time supplier and barely consider myself a vendor. I moved to an area that had none and saw an opportunity to do so. People who I sell to here in Montana or on here ( including Brad aka Viper ) appreciate what I do. I have made some mistakes, but I do go above and beyond to make it right. The vendor in question seems like an idiot. Nder got it right.... people are flaming because of the after the face situation.

quote:

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Originally posted by When I was actively dealing I got a lot of thanks. This isn't an isolated incident - you are giving him by far too much benefit of doubt. There was no reason for the owner to be such a jerk. At the very least he should have issued a brief apology and left it at that. Seems to me he didn't even pretend.:
[b][/b]

---

+1

quote:

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Originally posted by Tranderas:
Sounds to me like you can't handle customer complaints, in which case i strongly advise you to get out of business. Not just this one, but all business. You have no place.

And yes, I do operate on a one strike and you're out deal. If a business screws up and fails to compensate for that screw up, they don't deserve my business. Period, end of. Hell, even McDonald's and Long John Silver's will give you something free if they screw up- and without the cussing! That's their way of saying "We messed up. We admit it. Please understand we try to make you happy so you'll come back and buy more stuff later."

You also fail to realize that, if this were a US citizen against a US firm, he would have a case to challenge Jim on false advertising. He put up a price, said cards were available at that price, then failed to deliver. Since his e-mails make no indication that he had sold out, and evidence (the fact that they're still listed on his site, at a higher price) suggests that he was not out, Jim's only real case is "Why are we in court over a $29 discrepancy?" It's a weak defense.

In the state of Michigan, a store that fails to honor its printed price must return triple the discrepancy or $5, whichever is less, per item. A store that fails to do so can be fined $100 per item. So yes, it's a very big deal. Add to it the fact that he started cussing at Viper for absolutely no justifiable reason and you have a terrible business that everyone should avoid.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hooskdaddy:
It seemed as though the guy was trying to come on here and explain his side and even apologized for him being a d-bag. Give the guy some credit for facing his accuser(s). That in itself is not an easy task ESPECIALLY here. It would have been easier for him to just ignore it and it dissapate but he didnt, he took a stand and was the bigger man for admitting he did wrong and apologizing.

---

I honestly don't know how you read any of that into the posts they made. There was one extremely sorry attempt at apologizing (after 2 other posts making seemingly false accusations that the original poster was making horrible threats and flooding his inbox, and not making any attempt to prove or dispute the contrary evidence posted by Viper shortly thereafter) that came off more as "sorry I got blasted on the internet" than "sorry I was a complete and utter tool."

There's absolutely no way he gets any credit in the least for the posts that he made here. It was clearly a sad attempt to try and discredit the accuser, then when his attacks on Viper failed, he made a pathetic excuse for an apology and disappeared. It's a classic example of the kind of behavior that should put a company out of business, and few people would tolerate such actions.

Sure, everyone has an occassional problem when dealing on the internet, and you can't please everyone, but to approach this as if it was some upstanding person who is being wronged is just plain silly. The issues you had and how you handled yourself are night and day compared to this instance, so I don't understand your concerns about it happening to you. There is never ever a valid or even acceptable reason for what happened in this case, and it honestly scares me that there are people so willing to jump to their defense or not realize that the response to this is not an overreaction, but the proper response to such reprehensible behavior.

__________________
There's no need to fear, UNDERDOG is here!

All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

Report rules violations.

The very next day the prices were raised to $95 for the box and, get this, $49 dollars for the lot of 150 lands. When I picked up my pre-orders they were there and I was happy. If you were in charge I'm sure you would have cancelled my order and lost a customer for life (though I acknowledge pre-orders are slightly different then just orders) .

That is how you run a business, I will order from them till the day I die and they will get money from me over and over. There are two sides to every coin, try flipping yours over once and awhile.

Sean aka enemyzero

quote:

---

Originally posted by enemyzero:
Quick story: I pre-ordered a box on Zendikar and a lot of 150 of the full framed lands from coolstuffinc.com, a local and internet store around here. The box was $85 dollars and the lot of lands was $9.99.

The very next day the prices were raised to $95 for the box and, get this, $49 dollars for the lot of 150 lands. When I picked up my pre-orders they were there and I was happy. If you were in charge I'm sure you would have cancelled my order and lost a customer for life (though I acknowledge pre-orders are slightly different then just orders) .

That is how you run a business, I will order from them till the day I die and they will get money from me over and over. There are two sides to every coin, try flipping yours over once and awhile.

Sean aka enemyzero

---

Bottom line:

It is NEVER ok to speak to customers the way the shop owner replied.

I don't care if the customer has called you every name in the book. It's unprofessional and childish and honestly reflects badly on you as a store owner.

quote:

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Originally posted by enemyzero:
Quick story: I pre-ordered a box on Zendikar and a lot of 150 of the full framed lands from coolstuffinc.com, a local and internet store around here. The box was $85 dollars and the lot of lands was $9.99.

The very next day the prices were raised to $95 for the box and, get this, $49 dollars for the lot of 150 lands. When I picked up my pre-orders they were there and I was happy. If you were in charge I'm sure you would have cancelled my order and lost a customer for life (though I acknowledge pre-orders are slightly different then just orders) .

That is how you run a business, I will order from them till the day I die and they will get money from me over and over. There are two sides to every coin, try flipping yours over once and awhile.

Sean aka enemyzero

---

this pretty much sums up my take on these situations in general, keep customers happy and they will keep coming back to your business

To the store: not only was that a morally deficient response to a customer inquiry which shows that you are completely lacking any sort of character, it was a business blunder to refuse to fill his order. You are going to lose way more than the extra $50 you're going to make off of your 3x Vampire Nocturnus in business. In fact, Viper himself would have probably given you more profit over the course of the next couple years, not to mention anyone who's reading this, except this MasterWolf guy, is never going to buy from you again. You don't need a degree in Economics to understand the opportunity profit you're forgoing here. But hey, I've got one, so take it from me.

To MasterWolf: Are you serious? Let's see... You've had a good experience with this store the few times you've bought from them. You find out they did something idiotic and unprofessional, and you brush it off because "they weren't so bad before"? A business is bad if it practices bad business. The 3 times you've dealt with them aren't sufficient to establish it's a good business. The one bad experience Viper had, however, does establish it as a bad business. Try to find a McDonald's owner that insults his customers.

__________________
Email me if you have any Counterspells for trade!

quote:

---

Originally posted by MasterWolf:
1) Viper you're starting to really blank me off. I don't take insults very well, and there is no reason to take your anger out on me.

nder: Because, as I've been trying to say from the very beginning, I've been doing business for years and NOT having a problem. So of course I will use them in the future. Just cause Viper had a problem this one time does not define someone. I don't judge people that quickly.

Businesses can operate however the heck they want. If I don't like it, they won't get my business. The only point I was making the whole daggum thread was that maybe he ran out of product rather than was trying to screw Viper, and that we shouldn't jump to conclusions and judgement at the drop of a hat.

I for one will continue to use their site because I have never had any problems. I no longer care what anyone else does.

Just like Jesus in the GD, if you go against the popular opinion on this site you get lynched too. Better to just not have an opinion.

---

That's not the point. Just because they've been good to you before doesn't mean they won't shaft you later on.

For example(stay with me now, this may not apply directly to you, but you get where I'm going with this.) You are shopping for some high dollar cards so you can play in a PTQ in a couple weeks. Your #1 store has them listed at $5 lower than the others so you buy from them. A week and a half later, you haven't received, you ask why, they say they canceled the order, now you've not enough time to aquire those cards from an online store. Obv. if you knew they would cancel the order, you wouldn't have bought the cards in the first place, right? Time is of the essence in getting these cards. Now your forced to pay event prices if you want to play that deck at the PTQ.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tranderas:

And yes, I do operate on a one strike and you're out deal. If a business screws up and fails to compensate for that screw up, they don't deserve my business. Period, end of. Hell, even McDonald's and Long John Silver's will give you something free if they screw up- and without the cussing! That's their way of saying "We messed up. We admit it. Please understand we try to make you happy so you'll come back and buy more stuff later."

You also fail to realize that, if this were a US citizen against a US firm, he would have a case to challenge Jim on false advertising. He put up a price, said cards were available at that price, then failed to deliver. Since his e-mails make no indication that he had sold out, and evidence (the fact that they're still listed on his site, at a higher price) suggests that he was not out, Jim's only real case is "Why are we in court over a $29 discrepancy?" It's a weak defense.

In the state of Michigan, a store that fails to honor its printed price must return triple the discrepancy or $5, whichever is less, per item. A store that fails to do so can be fined $100 per item. So yes, it's a very big deal. Add to it the fact that he started cussing at Viper for absolutely no justifiable reason and you have a terrible business that everyone should avoid.

---

I haven't agreed with you much lately, but I'm 100% behind you here. At the very least, I demand that when errors occur, the people I'm dealing with should not dissemble, and should remain polite.

I recently went through massive hassles with my computer, and eventually had to enlist the aid of the Office of Consumer Protection. I had made use of the business in question in the past, but this time, I never received status updates on my computer until I came down myself (a one hour trip), none of those updates were accurate (I got a whole different story when I called my computer's manufacturer to inquire about their parts shipments), it was in there far too long (six weeks) at a time when I needed it desperately (thesis), and no effort was made to accomodate me. There were a number of other problems with this business, but the bottom line is that my computer's manufacturer quickly solved my problem when the OCP got involved: my computer was fixed and ready to go within four hours. One of the keys on my keyboard still doesn't work, and I can't unlock my touchpad, but the main repairs were completed, and I'm much happier now: but I'll never go back to Zycom Technologies.

Long story short: it doesn't take much to make me happy, as a customer, but it does take responsible and professional service, and a willingness to resolve disputes.

__________________
"I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.
I do not think they will sing to me."
-T.S. Eliot

The only path to victory in the “war on terror” is the moral high ground. Sadly, it's buried beneath the rubble of your nation.

-1 potential customer.