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Author	Topic: hard ruling scenarios that stumps judges
ImOldGreg Banned	posted May 14, 2011 12:48 PM Can someone give me an example of a rule problem that even gives the top head judges problems??? Like, are there rulings that are so convoluted with the stack, priority, etc... that players just cringe at the scenario? Thanks, Daniel
sdematt Member	posted May 14, 2011 01:47 PM Anything with Humility. -Matt
coolio Member	posted May 14, 2011 02:01 PM quote: Originally posted by sdematt: Anything with Humility. -Matt with the layering now? not really © __________________ Since it is obviously inconceivable that all religions can be right, the most reasonable conclusion is that they are all wrong. -Christopher Hitchens Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. -Seneca the Younger
Myy Member	posted May 14, 2011 02:16 PM that weird Interaction Junichi gave us with a Kicked Rite of replication, and a Precursor Golem So many people had a hard time coming to a conclusion. that even MWS froze. [Edited 1 times, lastly by Myy on May 14, 2011]
AlmostGrown Member	posted May 14, 2011 05:45 PM quote: Originally posted by Myy: that weird Interaction Junichi gave us with a Kicked Rite of replication, and a Precursor Golem So many people had a hard time coming to a conclusion. that even MWS froze. Cast a Rite of Replication kicked on a Precursor Golem on MTGO. Then do it again. That crashes MTGO. __________________ send ref checks, paypal payment or any questions to the email in my profile! Serra Angel Count: 274 Nightmare Count: 107 DCI Rules Advisor PlasteredDragon - Gone but not forgotten
FlashFrozen Member	posted May 14, 2011 06:10 PM It's really hard to stump a judge after they adjusted the layering system. IPG questions are probably the most difficult right now.
AlmostGrown Member	posted May 14, 2011 06:11 PM quote: Originally posted by FlashFrozen: It's really hard to stump a judge after they adjusted the layering system. IPG questions are probably the most difficult right now. And even then it's up to their interpretation. __________________ send ref checks, paypal payment or any questions to the email in my profile! Serra Angel Count: 274 Nightmare Count: 107 DCI Rules Advisor PlasteredDragon - Gone but not forgotten
coolio Member	posted May 14, 2011 07:28 PM quote: Originally posted by AlmostGrown: Cast a Rite of Replication kicked on a Precursor Golem on MTGO. Then do it again. That crashes MTGO. no it doesnt.. ive tried.. mtgo doesnt create more than a hundred tokens also..the answer is over a few mil last i recall __________________ Since it is obviously inconceivable that all religions can be right, the most reasonable conclusion is that they are all wrong. -Christopher Hitchens Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. -Seneca the Younger [Edited 1 times, lastly by coolio on May 14, 2011]
TimeBeing Member	posted May 14, 2011 08:18 PM Top judges make the rules so usually no. "Your Graveyard has 5 creatures and a Golgari Grave-Troll in it. You Remanimate Golgari Grave-Troll. How many token does it come into play with?" Is a common stumper they pass out these days to low level judges. EDIT: sorry my bad counters not tokens. was writing this fast [Edited 1 times, lastly by TimeBeing on May 15, 2011]
Sovarius Member	posted May 14, 2011 09:36 PM quote: Originally posted by TimeBeing: Top judges make the rules so usually no. "Your Graveyard has 5 creatures and a Golgari Grave-Troll in it. You Remanimate Golgari Grave-Troll. How many token does it come into play with?" Is a common stumper they pass out these days to low level judges. So are you supposed to answer 5 and you meant to say counters, or is a trick question about the distinction between tokens/counters?
Tha Gunslinga Moderator	posted May 14, 2011 09:48 PM 6. It counts itself. __________________ Ebay problems? File a claim, leave a neg, buy on MOTL. I'm looking for an Italian foil and Italian nonfoil Broodstar.
JoshSherman Member	posted May 14, 2011 09:51 PM quote: Originally posted by coolio: also..the answer is over a few mil last i recall Sure is __________________ MafiaBassJoshweekLetter Bombs!Logout Mottle Salvation- a new place to play Mafia and WW
Sovarius Member	posted May 14, 2011 11:56 PM quote: Originally posted by Tha Gunslinga: 6. It counts itself. Ha! Interesting. I did not know that. I read the rulings on it but that makes no sense to me >.> In relation to the confusing scenarios though, i do remember back in the day Eye of the Storm lead to a lot of confusion. I'm sure, like anything, people get used it. Even if you add in Djinn Illuminatus, Maelstrom Nexus, Isochron Scepter and Storm cards people will figure it out. Like someone said, the people who make rules know what they're talking about and to be a high level judge you will probably know about or just as much.
FlashFrozen Member	posted May 15, 2011 02:02 AM I'll shoot this question out there. See if you can answer before consulting documents. You're judging at a grand prix. Two players call you over and one says while he was searching for his marsh flats trigger, he accidentally shuffled his graveyard back into his library. Both players agree that it was a complete accident. Nothing has happened since the shuffle and there is no way to distinguish the cards that were in the graveyard. Whats the infraction, whats the penalty and whats the fix (if any)? Also does the situation change if both players can agree on what was in the graveyard at the time? [Edited 1 times, lastly by FlashFrozen on May 15, 2011]
TimeBeing Member	posted May 15, 2011 02:04 AM quote: Originally posted by Sovarius: Ha! Interesting. I did not know that. I read the rulings on it but that makes no sense to me >.> Yep its 6. The Troll is still in the graveyard when it is entering the battle field so it would count it self. There is no "stack/area" between the two, its in play or it is in the graveyard. "Can you wasteland a Vesuva naming Island" is another good one (and stumped a high level judge briefly at one point too)
Tha Gunslinga Moderator	posted May 15, 2011 05:34 AM quote: Originally posted by TimeBeing: "Can you wasteland a Vesuva naming Island" is another good one (and stumped a high level judge briefly at one point too) Well, it becomes an Island, right? So my thought would be no. __________________ Ebay problems? File a claim, leave a neg, buy on MOTL. I'm looking for an Italian foil and Italian nonfoil Broodstar.
AlmostGrown Member	posted May 15, 2011 06:47 AM quote: Originally posted by Tha Gunslinga: Well, it becomes an Island, right? So my thought would be no. But it doesn't have the super type "basic", so it can still be wastelanded. Like how Magus of the Moon makes Seat of the Synod into "Artifact Land - Mountain". At least, thats what I think. __________________ send ref checks, paypal payment or any questions to the email in my profile! Serra Angel Count: 274 Nightmare Count: 107 DCI Rules Advisor PlasteredDragon - Gone but not forgotten [Edited 1 times, lastly by AlmostGrown on May 15, 2011]
NukeMoose Member	posted May 15, 2011 07:45 AM quote: Originally posted by AlmostGrown: But it doesn't have the super type "basic", so it can still be wastelanded. Like how Magus of the Moon makes Seat of the Synod into "Artifact Land - Mountain". At least, thats what I think. Yes it does. When a copy effect happens it copies everything written on the card/oracle. It's treated as a gasp copy of that card. Magus/Bloodmoon effects are not copy effects. They are type changing affects, and leave the name, color, casting cost, supertypes, etc alone.
yukizora Member	posted May 15, 2011 07:55 AM Thing is that all rules are (Nornally) covered by a unique answer. The only big difference with higher level judges is policy knowledge. The IPG covers most but not all cases. I got a good one though. Usually it's the kind of trick you ask to a fellow L3+ instead of answering it. A plays leyline of the void and activates helm of obediance, player B has progenitus in his library. What happens, and what are the choices possible? (This might seem easy to answer, but fully explaining it is a bit more difficult.)
Cyno Member	posted May 15, 2011 08:04 AM I'll give it a go. LotV + HoO exile all the cards in the library until they hit proggy. Proggy's owner chooses which of the replacement effects takes precedence, most likely shuffling it back. This is repeated until all cards in the library are gone, excluding proggy itself. An infinite loop is created which can only be broken by the player owning the progenitus, therefor he has to choose a number of iterations to repeat the loop, and then has to let progenitus get exiled. I'm not a judge, so you can't sue me if I'm wrong
sdematt Member	posted May 15, 2011 08:44 AM What are the abbreviations for HoO and LotV? I'm blanking right now. -Matt
Zakman86 Member	posted May 15, 2011 08:45 AM quote: Originally posted by sdematt: What are the abbreviations for HoO and LotV? I'm blanking right now. -Matt Helm of Obedience/Leyline of the Void. Either way, he's correct, if something creates an infinite loop and there is a way to stop said infinite loop by making a decision, that decision must be made.
yukizora Member	posted May 15, 2011 10:35 AM Seemed easy, but it wasn't Only non-mandatory actions should be stopped to avoid an infinite loop. There is no optional (Or "may do..." )effect there, only a mandatory, binary choice to be made, exile or shuffle. So, if the player owning progenitus wants, he can make the game end in a draw.
Omega Member	posted May 15, 2011 01:16 PM Yesterday, my opponents called the judges 3 times, concerning Humility. So I will have to go with humility. Its just so complex -.- Also, is it true that modual creature (say arcbound worker) is a 2/2? (comes into play with a +1/+1 counter) Robert
yukizora Member	posted May 15, 2011 02:09 PM quote: Originally posted by Omega: Yesterday, my opponents called the judges 3 times, concerning Humility. So I will have to go with humility. Its just so complex -.- Also, is it true that modual creature (say arcbound worker) is a 2/2? (comes into play with a +1/+1 counter) Robert Yup. First it's 1/1 because of humility. Then you add the counter.

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