Now, saying that. I wanted to bring up another point that I haven't really researched much, but wanted to throw out there.

Let's say Jace AoT is going to be a key player in standard and modern. Even then 50$ is steep. If we look at some of the other good cards that see play we've got

Tarmogoyf: high 80s
Dark Confidant: Mid 30s
Vendilion Clique: 30
Thoughtseize: 30

all of which are modern legal. All of these cards are also played in legacy. My point being that for a card to remain high in price is has to span the formats and I just don't seeing Jace AoT doing this.

You may say, well he does have two years in standard. Agreed, but then we can just go back to the whole overhype/planeswalker argument. Most cards, even if they are very good are severely inflated for a period after release.

I believe Tamiyo was 50 when she came out and for the following month or so.
I watched a man at my local store pay 25 for tibalt on release day (tibalt is awful but still maintained the 20 price for a while after release)

Jace is a different animal in the sense that he is good, but...

well I think I've said my peace for the night.

Mythics seem to hold a higher price just BY being a mythic...odd but true, least when they are playable.

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Originally posted by Lord Crovax:
Problem with the examples you made, they all predate Mythics...

Mythics seem to hold a higher price just BY being a mythic...odd but true, least when they are playable.

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This is all beside the point. I disagree with Coolio's notion that the control decks are even capable of optimizing against the field. Control still has issues against zombies, but zombies is getting hammered by the sheer volume of centaur healer/thragtusk decks, which is what the jace decks prey on.

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Originally posted by Zeckk:
This is all beside the point. I disagree with Coolio's notion that the control decks are even capable of optimizing against the field. Control still has issues against zombies, but zombies is getting hammered by the sheer volume of centaur healer/thragtusk decks, which is what the jace decks prey on.

We should know by now that it only takes 1 or 2 effective hoser cards to drop the playability of any given card. If something comes along in gatecrasher with an effect similar to gaddock teeg, or more hexproof playables turn up, then control gets put in a tight spot.

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from what I can tell zombies has problems with control....

Terminus, O-Ring, Detention Sphere, Thragusk (If Green), Pillar of Flame (If Red), etc...

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Originally posted by Lord Crovax:
from what I can tell zombies has problems with control....

Terminus, O-Ring, Detention Sphere, Thragusk (If Green), Pillar of Flame (If Red), etc...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Zeckk:
Lifegain on bodies is more of a problem for zombies than a non-miracle terminus or detention spheres, which is entirely why control is even having success. If midrange didn't have to maindeck centaur healers and pillar of flame, control would have a lot more pressure maindeck. That goes back to the point earlier about jaces price - he's an archetype staple, not a format staple. Thragtusk at 20? I can unsderstand that, since he's showing up across multiple archetypes. Jace isn't really viable outside of control - he's not a win condition or control-killer the way JTMS was in next level bant.

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Originally posted by GenghisTom:
Am I missing something?

[url=http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jace-Architect-of-Thought-x4-CHEAP-/271080674223?pt=Trading_Card_Games_US&hash=item3f1daad3af&nma=true&si=fWnVUsbqRIWGSCAJA2cjO9ea%2Btw%3D&orig_cvip=tr ue&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557]Jace x4 on Ebay[/url]

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People artificially bidding it up...

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Originally posted by Lord Crovax:
People artificially bidding it up...

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Originally posted by xaretnapx:
But why? If you go look at the bid history you can see where some low feedback person is bidding stupid numbers. But ultimately doesn't someone have to still pay that $406? So what could possibly be the purpose to artificially bid it this much?

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Make it so the auction doesn't sell...

quote:

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Originally posted by Zeckk:
Lifegain on bodies is more of a problem for zombies than a non-miracle terminus or detention spheres, which is entirely why control is even having success. If midrange didn't have to maindeck centaur healers and pillar of flame, control would have a lot more pressure maindeck. That goes back to the point earlier about jaces price - he's an archetype staple, not a format staple. Thragtusk at 20? I can unsderstand that, since he's showing up across multiple archetypes. Jace isn't really viable outside of control - he's not a win condition or control-killer the way JTMS was in next level bant.

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1.Zombies has problems with a few decks...and this is why I prefer B/R Zombies over B/G. B/R gives you outs game 1, and reach with Aristocrat, Bump, Spear, and Brimstone Volley. Then SB options with Slaughter Games to turn off Thragtusks, and Dreadbore to hit planeswalkers. G/B has no game...but G/B is better equipped(from what I've been told) to beat R/B zombies 0_o ... strange, I know.

I personally think with Gatecrash and the addition of Watery Grave your going to get a Grixis Zombies list, because the Zombie Captain from DA seems nuts with Blood Artist and Aristocrat. It's also just good by itself, as it lets all of your dorks trade 1-1.

2.Back to Jace.....I disagree. It's a format staple. It's the only true blue draw engine in the format, and it's a good one at that. There is already talks about bant control/midrange decks that use the best two cards in the format...Jace, and Thragtusk. The format is early, and the only thing I can promise you is...nobody has put together a truly brilliant deck that is heads above the rest. The nice thing is, I really can't see one either. This looks like a VERY balanced format. I just wouldn't dismiss Jace so easily. It's the best card in Ravnica, it's the one of the best in standard....I'm not alone in this boat. Many pros share this same train of thought. Do a bunch of nobodys on a meeasge board think they figured out Jace is bad and will tank before the pros? I HIGHLY doubt that.

Is Jace worth $50? Maybe....possibly. Is it worth $35-40, certainly. Will it drop to below $20-25? Highly doubtful.

Why don't I go and buy out MOTL @ $35?......bc I own 6 already and I'm probably going to own a lot more once redemption on MODO hits because that's how I normally get all my playsets of cards...from drafting and redeeming, yet somehow I already have a TON of this stuff from drafting like crazy IRL and making good trades.

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Originally posted by daner:
1.Zombies has problems with a few decks...and this is why I prefer B/R Zombies over B/G. B/R gives you outs game 1, and reach with Aristocrat, Bump, Spear, and Brimstone Volley. Then SB options with Slaughter Games to turn off Thragtusks, and Dreadbore to hit planeswalkers. G/B has no game...but G/B is better equipped(from what I've been told) to beat R/B zombies 0_o ... strange, I know.

I personally think with Gatecrash and the addition of Watery Grave your going to get a Grixis Zombies list, because the Zombie Captain from DA seems nuts with Blood Artist and Aristocrat. It's also just good by itself, as it lets all of your dorks trade 1-1.

2.Back to Jace.....I disagree. It's a format staple. It's the only true blue draw engine in the format, and it's a good one at that. There is already talks about bant control/midrange decks that use the best two cards in the format...Jace, and Thragtusk. The format is early, and the only thing I can promise you is...nobody has put together a truly brilliant deck that is heads above the rest. The nice thing is, I really can't see one either. This looks like a VERY balanced format. I just wouldn't dismiss Jace so easily. It's the best card in Ravnica, it's the one of the best in standard....I'm not alone in this boat. Many pros share this same train of thought. Do a bunch of nobodys on a meeasge board think they figured out Jace is bad and will tank before the pros? I HIGHLY doubt that.

Is Jace worth $50? Maybe....possibly. Is it worth $35-40, certainly. Will it drop to below $20-25? Highly doubtful.

Why don't I go and buy out MOTL @ $35?......bc I own 6 already and I'm probably going to own a lot more once redemption on MODO hits because that's how I normally get all my playsets of cards...from drafting and redeeming, yet somehow I already have a TON of this stuff from drafting like crazy IRL and making good trades.

Still...I might start buying these @ $35, you never know. This card has staying power, and for those hoping to get them cheaper...well, I can honestly say I think you all missed the Jace boat again.

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So much of this..

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Originally posted by Zeckk:
There's already a jace + thrag deck. Its called bant control, and I suggest you start looking at SCG Open results. Its a good deck, but its hardly unbeatable, and jund midrange actually spanks that deck if it starts maindecking rakdos return.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Zeckk:
You have no idea what a format staple is.

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And you do? I'm just going to go back to my argument and side with all the pros who have commented on the power of this card.

...but from your standpoint they are all wrong, right?

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Originally posted by gaeacradle:
I can confirm this. Jund Midrange just totally dominate Bant Control.

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quote:

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Originally posted by daner:
And you do? I'm just going to go back to my argument and side with all the pros who have commented on the power of this card.

...but from your standpoint they are all wrong, right?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Zeckk:
Is English not your first language? I said jace is an archetype.staple, but not a format staple. He's a good card for control, no more, no less. That's also what the pros have been saying. I literally have no idea why you posted, implying that the pros are saying otherwise.

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"the three best cards in the format: Thragtusk, Restoration Angel, and Jace, Architect of Thought" ~ Patrick Chapin

So far evidence is leaning towards the latter, which will explain his price.

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Originally posted by Lord Crovax:
Key Point is either he is a Niche card for control or a staple in anything playing blue.

So far evidence is leaning towards the latter, which will explain his price.

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Originally posted by Zeckk:

I don't see jace making delver viable. In fact, jace just isn't seeing play outside of blue control. If he was worth playing in UW humans, I could see the 40 price tag being justified, but as I've said more than a few times, he's just a control card that potentially has modern applications. That's also explaining why he's down to 32 a pop on eBay. Wouldn't be surprised at all to see him at 25-27 on eBay by the time gatecrash rolls around.

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