quote:

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Originally posted by Bwatson513:
Shock lands are random jank now? This is the first of the new block and want be rotating in a while. Long enough for either the cards to rise or fall based on next sets.

You are assuming my cards are rotating tomorrow. Of course my cards will be less value way later down the road. But what about the use til then? Why do cards even have a value if they arent determined til after rotation? Im sorry but if Im giving a strand in premium based on my pile vs his and its still not enough you guys are clearly dillusional and just premium mid range legacy cards just because you can . I bought 2 heath last night for 30 each NM i would be dumb to come to this site only to ask 80 in trade on them.

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Lets see pile of junk that WILL drop (Time frame isn't a issue) vs 3 cards that have shown they WILL only go up in value (Again time frame isn't a issue)...

I really don't get how you don't understand how this works. Prices aside your stuff is super easy to get while the 3 fetches are not.

In fact out of your T2 pile

Abrupt Decay
2 Angel of Serenity

Those are the only things that probably will go up in value long term as they are both heavily Legacy playable, but even with that said, fetch lands they do not equal.

but all of this said, you don't like it, then stop trading, as you will find most people wont treat you well if you keep asking for insanely lopsided deals.

Standard for standard, legacy for standard, it all varies.

It someone wants a card bad enough, they will go higher than a price that is based on ebay or mot or wherever.

I recently traded a dual land away for what some of you might call legacy or modern jank. What it boils down to, I wanted those cards bad, I didn't need to put a premimum on the dual as I wanted the cards bad enough.

There is always gonna be someone who wants more for their cards as well as someone who will fulfill the above person's wish.

Just my thoughts.

~Revenger

__________________
Motl member since November 1, 2000

Your 2008 & 2010 Siskel & Ebert award winner!

32nd in refs on Motl!

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Originally posted by revenger:
It really depends on what an indivdual values a card at.

Standard for standard, legacy for standard, it all varies.

It someone wants a card bad enough, they will go higher than a price that is based on ebay or mot or wherever.

I recently traded a dual land away for what some of you might call legacy or modern jank. What it boils down to, I wanted those cards bad, I didn't need to put a premimum on the dual as I wanted the cards bad enough.

There is always gonna be someone who wants more for their cards as well as someone who will fulfill the above person's wish.

Just my thoughts.

~Revenger

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I'm fine with that. But the OP is not. He got mad, made this post, then called me "an idiot" and" worst kind of trader".

I totally understand where he is coming from (cuz I turn them down every day, AND would love to do the deal he proposed), but he refuses to acknowledge where I, along with several others, are coming from.

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Originally posted by gaeacradle:
I'm fine with that. But the OP is not. He got mad, made this post, then called me "an idiot" and" worst kind of trader".

I totally understand where he is coming from (cuz I turn them down every day, AND would love to do the deal he proposed), but he refuses to acknowledge where I, along with several others, are coming from.

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I see where both are coming from. And both have legitimate beefs. Unfort, I do not think it would be resolved in this thread. It's the long asked question of "how much do you value that card(s) at?" and "what is a good premimum for (this)(that) trade."

I am not choosing a side. Just my thoughts.

~Revenger

__________________
Motl member since November 1, 2000

Your 2008 & 2010 Siskel & Ebert award winner!

32nd in refs on Motl!

quote:

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Originally posted by gaeacradle:
I'm fine with that. But the OP is not. He got mad, made this post, then called me "an idiot" and" worst kind of trader".

I totally understand where he is coming from (cuz I turn them down every day, AND would love to do the deal he proposed), but he refuses to acknowledge where I, along with several others, are coming from.

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Originally posted by Bwatson513:
Shock lands are random jank now? This is the first of the new block and want be rotating in a while. Long enough for either the cards to rise or fall based on next sets.

You are assuming my cards are rotating tomorrow. Of course my cards will be less value way later down the road. But what about the use til then? Why do cards even have a value if they arent determined til after rotation? Im sorry but if Im giving a strand in premium based on my pile vs his and its still not enough you guys are clearly dillusional and just premium mid range legacy cards just because you can . I bought 2 heath last night for 30 each NM i would be dumb to come to this site only to ask 80 in trade on them.

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Originally posted by Bwatson513:
My intentions aren't to call you a bad trader and I apologize for that. But my thing is where is the line drawn on what's considered a premium card? Are aether vials and therapys premium? Any card that doesn't fluctuate in a eternal format is liable to be considered 20-30 more than standard cards? I agree cards will go down and go up, but to say they have no worth to a fetchland is ridiculous. How much in standard stuff does it take to get to 2 deltas and a strand in your eyes?

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Since the Deltas/Strands are $140, it would take about $210 for me to start considering the offer. Even then, I have to actually what is in the offer. Most of T2 will drop to 50% or more after their rotation. Shocks, however, will be treated differently since I believe they will not go down that much, and actually will be going up slowly after the initial drop from rotation. But RTR stuff are still being opened a lot, AND we haven't even made it to the MTGO redemption period (which T2 cards drop 10-25% due to massive influx of supply).

Now, not every Eternal cards are treated the same way. Cabal Therapy and Aether Vial are stable, Eternal cards, but they have not increased in prices lately. I wouldn't mind trading a Therapy for a Dreadbore, or a Vial for an Overgrown Tomb. But the Strands and Deltas are completely different from Therapy/Vial. The fetches DOUBLED from about 2 years ago (or even less), and there is no indications of them going back down barring a reprint.

So again, why should we trade you cards that are just going to keep increasing versus cards that are GUARANTEED to go down substantially? And that's just the premium for trading T2 to Legacy.

There is another premium that I mentioned, and that is trading a bunch of lower cards for a higher card. I don't think most people here will take 4 Aether Vials for a Flooded Strand UNLESS they need the Vials. So again, you need to compensate the guy with the Strand for that.

As for people who don't believe in premium, just think of it as "payment for you to do all the work of listing the cards, haggling with buyers, packing up the cards, sending the cards, hoping nothing goes wrong or there is no dispute, waiting for everything to clear, then buying the cards that you want". Is that a lot of work? You bet it is. So again, don't go complaining to us if we can give you straight across trades when you don't want to compensate us for that trouble.

Please note that the premium that I speak of is the same as if you want to sell all of your collection right away. You would need to take a 20% hit at the minimum, and probably more than that. Certainly, you can make more money selling the cards individually, but then you ACTUALLY have to do all the work. The "discount" you are giving the buyer is merely your payment for him to do all the selling for you.

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Originally posted by rats60:
This trade would be a big win for you. You get to move a bunch of random stuff to someone who needs it. In a few months when he tries to get rid of it, he will wish he had his fetches back. Go sell your cards and see what you can get for them. I doubt that you will be able to buy those 3 fetches with your proceeds.

He is not asking an outrageous premium, it is a perfectly reasonable premium. You are not giving up 100+ in premiums, you are giving up about 10% which is perfectly reasonable. If you offered me those cards for my fetches, I would tell you NO!! I would much rather have the 3 fetches. The fact that you can't see that is the problem here.

Gaeacradle and I are two of the most active traders on this site. We both have over 600 references. You are new here and not an experienced trader. You should listen to us. If you are wanting to trade your Type 2 and get back Legacy staples, expect to give a premium. If you don't think a premium is needed, trade with me. I have pretty much every Type 2 card. I will be happy to trade them for fetches, duals and other Legacy staples straight up.

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Ugh, between this post and the one complaining about Modern Masters for no reason, take some basic economic classes, learn about supply and demand, and then come back with something worth posting about.

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Originally posted by Bwatson513:
Had some guy earlier today in trade. No joke this is what he wanted to do for a trade

2x Syncopate (Foil)
Mutilate
Isperia, Supreme Judge
Armada Wurm
Olivia Voldaren
Abrupt Decay
Dreadbore
1x Azorius Charm
3x Temple Garden
2x Overgrown Tomb
2 Angel of Serenity
3 Hinterland Harbor

For 2 delta and 1 strand.

I understand the reasoning behind premiums, But I feel people are asking a premium on nearly any card that sees play in legacy. I watched a guy literally deny a trade because he wouldnt "give enough premium" on standstills or aether vials.

Premiums I look at are, NM Duals/Power any card that is extremely hard to get or not traded very often AKA foil branstorms Non english FoW's things like that.

Guy comes in my thread and offers me delta/strands for my standard stuff, and when I make a reasonable offer says "thats cool but where is my premium"? Do people turn around on this premium for profit? whats to stop this guy from taking my 80-90$ in premium I offered and reselling on ebay and just buying strands at 45-50$ each.

I'm sorry if im not understanding everything correctly, but Too many people are looking at a modern/legacy staple under $100 and expecting to just cash out in standard via premiums. I would never ask for a premium of over 10-15$ in cards for my jitte/aether vials.

Another example is this guy wanted to trade for 3 of my foil Hallowed fountains (RTR) I wanted a jace TMS and a couple other things. He says "sorry I dont value those foils near my Jace, Those foils will drop in x months" Thats cool and all, but guess what they are at that price NOW. and if you are trading for value they wont be in your binder long enough to deppreciate.

/endrant

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Originally posted by stu55:
Why is this even a post? I swear, people are complaining more and more about the stupidest stuff. Seriously, if you don't like the offer, the trick to online trading is DON'T ACCEPT IT and the next rule is DON'T POST ABOUT IT BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE DON'T CARE ABOUT IT.

Ugh, between this post and the one complaining about Modern Masters for no reason, take some basic economic classes, learn about supply and demand, and then come back with something worth posting about.

And by the way, your cards not worth more because they are your cards

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This, so much of this.

Seriously people these days worry me.

quote:

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Originally posted by stu55:
Why is this even a post? I swear, people are complaining more and more about the stupidest stuff. Seriously, if you don't like the offer, the trick to online trading is DON'T ACCEPT IT and the next rule is DON'T POST ABOUT IT BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE DON'T CARE ABOUT IT.

Ugh, between this post and the one complaining about Modern Masters for no reason, take some basic economic classes, learn about supply and demand, and then come back with something worth posting about.

And by the way, your cards not worth more because they are your cards

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Can you please point my in the direction I said my cards are worth more because they are mine? I'm simply wondering if people just slap premium on things just to profit and rebut their cards. I'm sorry highschool restricts this site and you had to post your immature comment when the bus took you home

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Originally posted by mtglover:
Well, since he needs it for his own deck and he wants to play constructed, if the op doesn't trade with him and if nobody else does at that offer, he would have to pay with his own money, which is worse than trading his fetches. The basic assumption of the people who has older stuff is that they already have the new cards cause they can afford them and can therefore sit on his older cards and wait for people who wanted his cards more than he wants theirs. However, is obviously not the case.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bwatson513:
Can you please point my in the direction I said my cards are worth more because they are mine? I'm simply wondering if people just slap premium on things just to profit and rebut their cards. I'm sorry highschool restricts this site and you had to post your immature comment when the bus took you home

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Originally posted by rats60:
Except there are people lining up in this thread to trade their overpriced Type 2 for fetchlands. He won't have any problem turning those 3 fetches into those cards. The OP, on the otherhand, will struggle to trade his Type 2 for fetches because he won't give a premium. Then when I ask him if he would trade his fetches for Type 2, he says he wants a premium. Stu has it right, this is just a case of someone who wants to value his cards higher because they are his cards. The one thing Stu missed was the people crying over Commander's Arsanal because they think it is their right to buy it a MSRP.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bwatson513:
Can you please point my in the direction I said my cards are worth more because they are mine? I'm simply wondering if people just slap premium on things just to profit and rebut their cards. I'm sorry highschool restricts this site and you had to post your immature comment when the bus took you home

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How long till this one gets himself banned?

Ready every post where you said prices were low, or your heath was X more or some nonsense.

Deltas and Strands have no new supply coming in, and demand has been increasing rapidly. RTR is being opened like it's people's godgiven right, and while the demand is there now, it will quickly peak and decline in the coming months. I would rather move $180 of standard value for $140 of legacy value anyday, because it's pretty clear, based on historical price changes, that standard cards lose their value quickly (1-2 years).

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Originally posted by nylarotep:
Just to play devil's advocate, anybody think the original fetch lands will be reprinted at some point in time? The blue ones are around low-level dual lands in value and none of them are on the reserved list. Also, not like they have set-specific names to them.

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Originally posted by Vegas10:
Yes, and probably in a standard legal set again at some point so they can make them modern legal as well and fetches are fine in standard? when would be a guess, maybe third set of rtr, but only if they do all 10 (the zendi's included) to line up with guilds, but since Zen fetches arn't that old yet, I think it's more likley down the road all 10 land up together in somthing

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I'm guessing they will be reprinted in 2016. I remember reading somewhere that Wizards like do things in cycle of 7 years. 2002 is when Onslaught came out, and 7 years later, we got Zen fetches. The Mirrodin blocks were also 7 years apart.

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Originally posted by nylarotep:
Just to play devil's advocate, anybody think the original fetch lands will be reprinted at some point in time? The blue ones are around low-level dual lands in value and none of them are on the reserved list. Also, not like they have set-specific names to them.

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They might but if the focus is on making Modern viable moving forward then there is no reason for them to reprint the originals unless they care about Legacy or getting them into the hands of kitchen table players.

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Originally posted by stu55:
How long till this one gets himself banned?

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AT this rate, I give him a week.

Also, yea Old fetches will eventually get reprinted....just in what I don't know.

1. The tendency to justify X premium based upon the value of the cards Y years from now. This is occurring from people on both sides of the debate, and it's absolutely ridiculous. Standard is a format, people. It's also the most popular paper format. I know we all like to complain about how overpriced XYZ cards can be if they are the hotness in standard, but using the argument that a trade will be bad 2 years from now barely even qualifies as a strawman argument. People play PTQs, FNMs, and GPs, and I heard that a lot of those events involve the standard format. The "future vs. established value" argument gets tossed around way too often, and it's done incorrectly if the guy trading for standard stuff actually needs the standard stuff.

What's even more troubling is people taking for granted that the guy receiving the standard stuff is somehow now stuck with that standard stuff until it rotates. I have literally traded to assemble a deck for modern and standard tourneys, then flipped those cards back for less volatile cards during the same event. Trading standard is not difficult, and it's not a money sink unless you have a mental block prohibiting you from A) using those cards to win prize support or B) trading/selling those cards for value once you are done using them.

2.

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Originally posted by Lord Crovax:
In fact out of your T2 pile

Abrupt Decay
2 Angel of Serenity

Those are the only things that probably will go up in value long term as they are both heavily Legacy playable, but even with that said, fetch lands they do not equal.

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Why trade then, ever? I know that the OP framed this discussion in terms of a rant, especially without giving much context, but please don't ever generalize cross-format trading in such a way. It's asinine. You don't know the future. Onslaught fetches could be in M14, or they could never see a reprint. WOTC could suddenly ban dual lands from legacy if they felt it would keep the format from dying. There are a million different factors that can influence the price of the current cards, but the biggest factor is simply the current value, and the current playability of a card.