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Author Topic:   This "Premium" stuff is out of control
Bwatson513
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posted October 24, 2012 12:54 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Bwatson513 Click Here to Email Bwatson513 Send a private message to Bwatson513 Click to send Bwatson513 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Bwatson513's Have/Want ListView Bwatson513's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Zeckk:
2 things that bug me about the discussion in this thread.

1. The tendency to justify X premium based upon the value of the cards Y years from now. This is occurring from people on both sides of the debate, and it's absolutely ridiculous. Standard is a format, people. It's also the most popular paper format. I know we all like to complain about how overpriced XYZ cards can be if they are the hotness in standard, but using the argument that a trade will be bad 2 years from now barely even qualifies as a strawman argument. People play PTQs, FNMs, and GPs, and I heard that a lot of those events involve the standard format. The "future vs. established value" argument gets tossed around way too often, and it's done incorrectly if the guy trading for standard stuff actually needs the standard stuff.

What's even more troubling is people taking for granted that the guy receiving the standard stuff is somehow now stuck with that standard stuff until it rotates. I have literally traded to assemble a deck for modern and standard tourneys, then flipped those cards back for less volatile cards during the same event. Trading standard is not difficult, and it's not a money sink unless you have a mental block prohibiting you from A) using those cards to win prize support or B) trading/selling those cards for value once you are done using them.

2. Why trade then, ever? I know that the OP framed this discussion in terms of a rant, especially without giving much context, but please don't ever generalize cross-format trading in such a way. It's asinine. You don't know the future. Onslaught fetches could be in M14, or they could never see a reprint. WOTC could suddenly ban dual lands from legacy if they felt it would keep the format from dying. There are a million different factors that can influence the price of the current cards, but the biggest factor is simply the current value, and the current playability of a card.

I'm no stranger to speculative trades, but gross generalizations indicate to me that a potential trader is either lazy or incompetent. If a guy balks on trading away his angel of serenity at current value because "it's seeing more copies in top 8s than Jace 4.0", it's reasonable, because it's verifiable and has sound reasoning. But simply saying "standard for legacy? better throw in your first born child too, bro" is a cop out, especially when many dealers make their bread and butter by getting rid of stagnant eternal staples and moving high-velocity standard stock.


Someone who gets it. I am trading my standard cards to someone who is in NEED of standard to play T2. He isnt just "getting another playset just to have it" and I Certainly didnt offer the trade. He chose those cards from my list and said I have 2 deltas and a strand. I said I am more than willing to do that trade and then went on to ask for more premium and me to add to the trade because they were legacy staples.

Thats what bugs me. When do you use "premium" to get more out of your cards? If he had a abundance of shocks and Standard and was trading "just because he can" then I can see the point everyone is making, but no he wanted standard cards then proceeded to practically buylist my standard stuff because he happened to offer me legacy staples I had in my want list.

The fact that you guys parade premium around makes me think you all are the people everyone hates at a LGS. a bunch of extremely expensive cards that laughs at kids wanting cards for EDH or modern, but when offered standard cards sticks his nose up saying how much better your cards will be x years from now and his stuff will be garbage. NEWS FLASH if you are letting the EXACT standard cards I traded you sit in your binder to deppreciate I would laugh at you.

We both know those cards will be gone in a few days. Stop acting like you will be stuck with them forever.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Bwatson513 on October 24, 2012]

 
Kwas
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posted October 24, 2012 04:07 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Kwas Click Here to Email Kwas Send a private message to Kwas Click to send Kwas an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Kwas's Have/Want ListView Kwas's Have/Want List
Fetches (especially blue ONS) will ALWAYS have premium considering most of the items you are shipping for his LEGACY, CUBE, VINTAGE and EDH STABLES are "These fit into a good, recent" standard archetype.

Obviously you have to make the deal heavily in his favor, otherwise no one that's slightly interested in trading and selling will ever be interested in doing this trade.

besides: I think you are the scumbag here. You are trying to grind as much value as you can, not considering one month from now.

 
stu55
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posted October 24, 2012 04:07 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for stu55 Click Here to Email stu55 Send a private message to stu55 Click to send stu55 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bwatson513:
Someone who gets it.


Well, unfortunately that is not you. You come in here with this stupid rant, and then bash a large portion of the members of this site? Why don't you leave and not come back.

You can betcha I am going to want a premium on trading super easy to move, high demand older cards for in print newer cards. There is more to think about than dollar signs, but I wouldn't expect you to understand that.

 
marriedwithchildren
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posted October 24, 2012 01:14 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for marriedwithchildren Click Here to Email marriedwithchildren Send a private message to marriedwithchildren Click to send marriedwithchildren an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View marriedwithchildren's Have/Want ListView marriedwithchildren's Have/Want List
Unfortunately peoples percieved "value" of a card and getting a primium often leads to getting gouged worse than at lgs, who has real overhead. Id rather take a loss on my cards to the somewhat lgs than most of you. I do understand both points of view. I choose the high road, I barely ever post a list, trade to the lgs, and buy what I need when I find it in my price range. it beats hagglingover $2
 
trying2playagain
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posted October 24, 2012 02:29 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for trying2playagain Click Here to Email trying2playagain Send a private message to trying2playagain Click to send trying2playagain an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Since this has been brought up. From what i have read everyone who has posted including my self execpt for the op agress that is not to much for oop leagcy cards.
I was just wandering how many people would do this one

my
2x bonfire of the damned
2x thragtusk
3x overgrown tomb
1x omnisicience
1x nicolebolas m13
1x chandra fire brand
1x each charm rtr with the izzet being foil

for
1x karakus english ex

 
gaeacradle
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posted October 24, 2012 02:36 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for gaeacradle Click Here to Email gaeacradle Send a private message to gaeacradle Click to send gaeacradle an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View gaeacradle's Have/Want ListView gaeacradle's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by trying2playagain:
Since this has been brought up. From what i have read everyone who has posted including my self execpt for the op agress that is not to much for oop leagcy cards.
I was just wandering how many people would do this one

my
2x bonfire of the damned
2x thragtusk
3x overgrown tomb
1x omnisicience
1x nicolebolas m13
1x chandra fire brand
1x each charm rtr with the izzet being foil

for
1x karakus english ex


I have a Karakas like that, and yes, I would do that trade all day long.


[Edited 1 times, lastly by gaeacradle on October 24, 2012]

 
trying2playagain
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posted October 24, 2012 02:41 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for trying2playagain Click Here to Email trying2playagain Send a private message to trying2playagain Click to send trying2playagain an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
thanks for letting me know i was told that was not enough for a oop leagacy card
 
gaeacradle
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posted October 24, 2012 02:47 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for gaeacradle Click Here to Email gaeacradle Send a private message to gaeacradle Click to send gaeacradle an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View gaeacradle's Have/Want ListView gaeacradle's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by trying2playagain:
thanks for letting me know i was told that was not enough for a oop leagacy card

Well, here's the thing. Just like the housing market/economy, even trading is localized. I can easily turn these cards locally into a lot more values. The other person may not feel that way, or may not be able to accomplish what I can. And yes, I always take into account of what I can get rid of locally if I'm getting T2 stuff.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by gaeacradle on October 24, 2012]

 
WeedIan
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posted October 24, 2012 03:23 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for WeedIan Click Here to Email WeedIan Send a private message to WeedIan Click to send WeedIan an Instant MessageVisit WeedIan's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View WeedIan's Have/Want ListView WeedIan's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by trying2playagain:
Since this has been brought up. From what i have read everyone who has posted including my self execpt for the op agress that is not to much for oop leagcy cards.
I was just wandering how many people would do this one

my
2x bonfire of the damned
2x thragtusk
3x overgrown tomb
1x omnisicience
1x nicolebolas m13
1x chandra fire brand
1x each charm rtr with the izzet being foil

for
1x karakus english ex


Yup all day long!

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bigballashotcaller
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posted October 24, 2012 03:26 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for bigballashotcaller Click Here to Email bigballashotcaller Send a private message to bigballashotcaller Click to send bigballashotcaller an Instant MessageVisit bigballashotcaller's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View bigballashotcaller's Have/Want ListView bigballashotcaller's Have/Want List
You're delusional if you think your crappy Standard cards are going to hold their value. That's a fair trade in every sense of the word, especially if you're not trying to speculate, and will actually play the cards.
 
Zeckk
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posted October 24, 2012 05:17 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Zeckk Click Here to Email Zeckk Send a private message to Zeckk Click to send Zeckk an Instant MessageVisit Zeckk's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Zeckk's Have/Want ListView Zeckk's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by bigballashotcaller:
You're delusional if you think your crappy Standard cards are going to hold their value. That's a fair trade in every sense of the word, especially if you're not trying to speculate, and will actually play the cards.

/facepalm

 
caquaa
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posted October 24, 2012 06:10 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for caquaa Click Here to Email caquaa Send a private message to caquaa Click to send caquaa an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View caquaa's Trade Auction or SaleView caquaa's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by trying2playagain:
Since this has been brought up. From what i have read everyone who has posted including my self execpt for the op agress that is not to much for oop leagcy cards.
I was just wandering how many people would do this one

my
2x bonfire of the damned
2x thragtusk
3x overgrown tomb
1x omnisicience
1x nicolebolas m13
1x chandra fire brand
1x each charm rtr with the izzet being foil

for
1x karakus english ex


I'd take that for my karakas no problems. lets see... 2x bonfire ~$25 ea, 2x thrag ~$18ea, 3x tomb $10 ea...
math says duhhhhhhh. However if someone was offering me 1:1 standard for karakas it would have to be high end standard so all shocks, thrags, angels or such and I might consider it. Start throwing in junk like chandra and 1:1 would go out the window. It really comes down to how easy it is to move the cards imo. Top end standard stuff moves easy and if the trade is quick its preferable at times.

 
Mr.C
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posted October 24, 2012 08:12 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Mr.C Click Here to Email Mr.C Send a private message to Mr.C Click to send Mr.C an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Mr.C's Have/Want ListView Mr.C's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by caquaa:
I'd take that for my karakas no problems. lets see... 2x bonfire ~$25 ea, 2x thrag ~$18ea, 3x tomb $10 ea...
math says duhhhhhhh. However if someone was offering me 1:1 standard for karakas it would have to be high end standard so all shocks, thrags, angels or such and I might consider it. Start throwing in junk like chandra and 1:1 would go out the window. It really comes down to how easy it is to move the cards imo. Top end standard stuff moves easy and if the trade is quick its preferable at times.

Bingo. Half of what the OP offered was not top shelf stuff. Olivia Voldaren? Talk about unstable, for example.

 
lordofthepit23
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posted October 25, 2012 05:14 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for lordofthepit23 Click Here to Email lordofthepit23 Send a private message to lordofthepit23 Click to send lordofthepit23 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I went ahead and posted the OP's trade on an "A vs. B" thread from another forum. It gets pretty low volume, but two people preferred the fetchlands compared to one for the Standard crap (which is one more than I expected).

It's fine if you prefer the Standard stuff. It's okay to say no, or even ask to cut back on some of what you're giving. But to act all indignant that he gave you a bad offer--let alone moaning about it on this thread--is ridiculous.

By the time the trades arrive in the mailbox, any nominal value in favor of the Standard pile will likely already have gone away, even without a premium. If anyone asks for the name of the other party, it isn't to shame them: it's because they likely would want to take him up on his offer that you feel is insulting.

 
Bagbokk
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posted October 25, 2012 06:48 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Bagbokk Click Here to Email Bagbokk Send a private message to Bagbokk Click to send Bagbokk an Instant MessageVisit Bagbokk's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I don't fault anyone at all for wanting a large premium, nor would I fault anyone for declining to give such a large premium. Honestly, it depends how much free time I have to spend on Magic. Right now, it's near zero.

Therefore, I'm generally going to take (a) the cards that are going to retain their value over time and/or (b) the pile with less cards in it to have to move. In this case, the fetches pile. And if I'm trading off something like those fetches, it better be for a lot of value, or for equally desired/easy to move/low-quantity-high-quality stuff. I'd be fine trading fetches for Jace, AOT for example.

Of course, some trades are a little too lopsided to really pass up. Like the Karakas example above: that's what, $115 of fairly easily moved stuff (and then like another $10 in crap) for a $70 card? You could take a huge hit and probably buylist off those Standard cards and still be up.

Also, while it depends on what the cards are, Standard stuff is often much easier to move than Legacy stuff.

 
FleeceItOut
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posted October 27, 2012 11:25 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for FleeceItOut Click Here to Email FleeceItOut Send a private message to FleeceItOut Click to send FleeceItOut an Instant MessageVisit FleeceItOut's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
all the time you wasted arguing could have been used to sell your pile and then bought whatever you wanted
 
walkerdog
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posted October 28, 2012 12:18 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for walkerdog Click Here to Email walkerdog Send a private message to walkerdog Click to send walkerdog an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View walkerdog's Have/Want ListView walkerdog's Have/Want List
Generally a small premium (10-15%ish) is fine with me if I'm trading small stuff for big, new for old, etc, but much past that and I'll lol atcha.
 
gaeacradle
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posted October 28, 2012 12:21 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for gaeacradle Click Here to Email gaeacradle Send a private message to gaeacradle Click to send gaeacradle an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View gaeacradle's Have/Want ListView gaeacradle's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by walkerdog:
Generally a small premium (10-15%ish) is fine with me if I'm trading small stuff for big, new for old, etc, but much past that and I'll lol atcha.

And we would lol right back atcha

 
mm1983
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posted October 30, 2012 01:41 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for mm1983 Click Here to Email mm1983 Send a private message to mm1983 Click to send mm1983 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View mm1983's Have/Want ListView mm1983's Have/Want List
That's why I buy most of what I need for legacy staples. They can't argue with premium when only cash is involved. Occasionly if I wanted a legacy card valued at $60 and if they wanted $100 in many lower valued cards for it I would do it because I can't get rid of the cards anywhere else and it saves me the work of trying to trade those cards or to sell them off to buy the $60 card I want.
 
choco man
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posted October 30, 2012 03:02 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for choco man Click Here to Email choco man Send a private message to choco man Click to send choco man an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View choco man's Have/Want ListView choco man's Have/Want List
At the LGS, how ppl amass good standard cards in-mass (all by the 1st week, jeezzz!!!!) is by being a scumbag and hovering over all the newbs as they're opening a new booster box with the anticipation of ripping them off for all their good pulls.

If you got so many awesome new cards (a playset of Abrupt Decay already!!!) at such a discount, why does it even matter that you give up a measly 10-20% for legacy cards. Especially since ripping off newbs is easily +25-50%.

 
MagixDK
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posted October 30, 2012 03:19 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for MagixDK Click Here to Email MagixDK Send a private message to MagixDK Click to send MagixDK an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by choco man:
At the LGS, how ppl amass good standard cards in-mass (all by the 1st week, jeezzz!!!!) is by being a scumbag and hovering over all the newbs as they're opening a new booster box with the anticipation of ripping them off for all their good pulls.

If you got so many awesome new cards (a playset of Abrupt Decay already!!!) at such a discount, why does it even matter that you give up a measly 10-20% for legacy cards. Especially since ripping off newbs is easily +25-50%.



Welcome to real world. This isnt magic specific, but happens in all transactions. Its human nature I guess.

It even happens to you. You just know magic well enough to see it and understand, in other facets of life, not so much.



[Edited 1 times, lastly by MagixDK on October 30, 2012]

 
Lord Crovax
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posted October 30, 2012 04:40 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Lord Crovax Click Here to Email Lord Crovax Send a private message to Lord Crovax Click to send Lord Crovax an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MagixDK:

Welcome to real world. This isnt magic specific, but happens in all transactions. Its human nature I guess.

It even happens to you. You just know magic well enough to see it and understand, in other facets of life, not so much.


This.....you think your not getting ripped when you go grocery shoping or to walmart...lol

Just people accept those, never understood why people get so mad when it happens with magic.

__________________
I shall have the souls of all who defy me. "Lord Crovax"

 
AGO
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posted October 30, 2012 07:12 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for AGO Click Here to Email AGO Send a private message to AGO Click to send AGO an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View AGO's Trade Auction or SaleView AGO's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Crovax:
This.....you think your not getting ripped when you go grocery shoping or to walmart...lol

Just people accept those, never understood why people get so mad when it happens with magic.


Like that steak that gave me diarrhea. Worst $8 spent ever...

 
choco man
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posted October 30, 2012 10:53 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for choco man Click Here to Email choco man Send a private message to choco man Click to send choco man an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View choco man's Have/Want ListView choco man's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Crovax:
This.....you think your not getting ripped when you go grocery shoping or to walmart...lol

Just people accept those, never understood why people get so mad when it happens with magic.


-1, I don't think the grocery store example works.

For instance,if I had to dedicate time and effort into making my own soap, I'll bet it'll cost more than $0.50 a bar. Especially if I want nice soap that doesn't dry up my skin Paying a margin is definitely worth it.

In Idaho, it'd be pretty hard getting some foods year round without a grocery. Paying a margin not the same as a rip.

Asking a premium for your stuff also isn't a rip.

But ripping little kids definitely is. It does irk me when little kids get ripped-off. And in my opinion, it's a pretty legitimate way to feel when that happens. At my LGS, that was pretty much how guys amassed standard singles quickly.

I'll trade for standard cards and mostly have older stuff. When a trade didn't work out, you could be sure it wasn't me that was upset. It's almost always the guy with the new stuff who wants the old stuff that's miffed.

 
hilikuS
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posted October 31, 2012 05:53 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for hilikuS Click Here to Email hilikuS Send a private message to hilikuS Click to send hilikuS an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View hilikuS's Trade Auction or SaleView hilikuS's Trade Auction or Sale
If you can always get a premium on Legacy stuff, why not just buy Legacy stuff and trade it for the Standard crap you need at the premium? A bit of work but you get all the things you need at a discount.

You can always find the Legacy schwag at market price, and it seems like you shouldn't have a problem finding someone who will want it, and give you the extra.

I did this sort of thing for awhile to acquire cheap rares that a dealer site was buying. It worked out pretty well.

[Edited 2 times, lastly by hilikuS on October 31, 2012]

 

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