__________________
Mort was already aware that love made you feel hot and cold and cruel and weak, but he hadn't realized that it could make you stupid.

All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

Report rules violations.

quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
Why should we be respectful and courteous to them if they can't be respectful and courteous to us and make lists that are nothing short of an insult? I have no tolerance of people who are only in it to make money and feel that fair trades are beneath them. I see no problem in encouraging them to change their ways or find somewhere else to take advantage of people.

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I agree completely. Far too many people show up on this board thinking they can take people for a ride, offering way under current values for cards and everything else. The thread you're posting this in response to was fully justified and it was only a matter of time before that moron got a good pwning from the general populace.

Yes, people can be a little harsh behind the anonymity of the Internet. But, there's not always something wrong with that. When people attempt to do something we should have every right to call them out for it. If they can't handle it, then they shouldn't have tried to pull that stuff off in the first place.

I've been called out for underpricing things before, and I just let it go. It wasn't the end of the world. I learned from it and moved on. If people have a problem with the justified comments left by others, then they can delete the list and try again with more realistic requests/prices. Easy enough solution.

__________________
Get "it" now

If users make fun of really bad prices it alerts the noobies and keeps them from being ripped.

I have seen dealers come and go (due to bad pricing). Remember, this is a TRADE site, not a dealer site. Dealers who understand this do fine here.

What I find unacceptable is the reaction of some of these "dealers". The latest one posted a death threat to another member's list. THAT can not be tollerated.

It makes no sense to me that we would condone ridicule (especially en masse) when this is meant to be a serious and respectful trading community and family site. It makes no sense to be respectful in our posting everywhere else, but as soon as someone's prices are off, we have free license to troll and put down. Whether or not the person in question has quoted relevant prices is irrelevant; if we engage in or condone cyber-bullying, we are only compounding the problem. There are better and more respectful ways to ask a person to revise his/her price quotes: simply say something along the lines of "Dude, your prices are way above/below the going online rates. You may want to revise them; the internet market is vastly different from real-life local markets." That's all it takes, and it sends all the desired signals to both buyers and the seller him or herself in a calm, controlled, and respectful manner that nullifies the opportunities for trolling.

This being said, I'm glad to say that I have not witnessed the kind of ganging up referred to both here and in the rule; nevertheless, I feel that it should be edited, lest it give the wrong impression. If you were a parent screening the forums to see if you should sign that permission slip for your child, you probably wouldn't be too impressed with that rule, regardless of the incidences of occurence.

There's no reason not to have fun and kid around on the boards, but there are places where this is appropriate, and places where it is not. The TA forum is among the latter, I think.

quote:

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Why should we be respectful and courteous to them if they can't be respectful and courteous to us and make lists that are nothing short of an insult? I have no tolerance of people who are only in it to make money and feel that fair trades are beneath them. I see no problem in encouraging them to change their ways or find somewhere else to take advantage of people.

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Respect starts at home; you have to give if you wish to receive. Sure, some people aren't very good at giving themselves, but they will learn or they will leave. We needn't stoop to their level to get the message across. I agree that people who won't trade/sell/buy fairly are a real turn-off (I've been running into an unusual number recently, and it irks me no end, believe me), but in a mature and respectful community, this should not give me license to do the same in return. It's old and cliché, but an eye for an eye leaves us both blind.

Again, while I haven't seen this happening frequently, I firmly believe that the wording should be more tactfully chosen. Condoned ridicule is simply unacceptable if we wish to create a safe family environment.

__________________
"I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.
I do not think they will sing to me."
-T.S. Eliot

"Between that promise and the reality, there is an ocean. That ocean is called the Liberal Party." (Duceppe)

Glitch-Banned/Unbanned 18/03/06

RIP Ari

I fail to see how running off the dealers and wanna-be dealers who are only here to rip off kids who don't know better makes MOTL less safe or family-unfriendly.

__________________
Mort was already aware that love made you feel hot and cold and cruel and weak, but he hadn't realized that it could make you stupid.

All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

Report rules violations.

quote:

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Originally posted by BoltBait:
If people who don't agree with rediculus prices simply press the back button and move on, no0bies could be taken advantage of simply because they don't know any better.

If users make fun of really bad prices it alerts the noobies and keeps them from being ripped.

I have seen dealers come and go (due to bad pricing). Remember, this is a TRADE site, not a dealer site. Dealers who understand this do fine here.

What I find unacceptable is the reaction of some of these "dealers". The latest one posted a death threat to another member's list. THAT can not be tollerated.

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Exactly. It's one thing for a person to learn from their mistakes but it's another thing to be taken advantage of by the wanna-be dealers on here. Some people, even with looking at priceguides, don't play Magic competitively enough to know what cards are really playable or automatically assume that an expensive card is a good card.

Oh, and that death threat along with bypassing the autocensor is still on my thread.

__________________
GøÐÐ맧
MOTL Queen 2006

D≡P≡CH≡ MOD≡

370HSSV-0773H

quote:

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Originally posted by cyclonus23:
N,ppl dont have to buy from anyone they dont want to man,bottom line.And not all folks who visit/are members of motl are kids.That guy could have been a kid for all we know,just a dumb kid.All im saying is that a little politeness wouldent hurt and mabye we may get more positive responces and actual changes if we just ask folks to change there prices or go you to them saying:"Hey man,sorry to be bothering you but I noticed your prices are a little higher than most folks around here.Its my opinion that your bussiness may improve if you lower them a little.Imo.Thanks."
see?now Ill bet anyone would react better to that instead of ridiculeing and harrassment.

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Of course no one is forced to buy from any particular person. That's why the mature smart people don't buy from the morons. Unfortunately, the younger kids who don't know better sometimes get suckered by these scum, which is why they're here in the first place. Besides, the guy claimed to be a store, meaning he's either full of crap, or old enough to know better. Either way, we're better off without someone like that around.

As I've already pointed out, being polite has been tried before, and doesn't do a thing. Politely asking the person robbing you at gunpoint to stop isn't effective. More drastic measures are needed.

__________________
Mort was already aware that love made you feel hot and cold and cruel and weak, but he hadn't realized that it could make you stupid.

All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

Report rules violations.

quote:

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Originally posted by cyclonus23:
I think you folks are going a little off topic here,this thread is not about death-threats ,Its about showing respect and curtesy not only to another human being ,but to a fellow Magic player.It is rediculus to assume everyone or even half of all traders who who have "unfair"trading practices are capable of what that one was,never-the-less,I agree with the action that was taken reguarding that gentleman,but we are talking about this specific rule.
What exactly would drive a trader who,supposedly,had otherwise good intentions to fly off the handle like that?I think the answer lies in what he endured and was put through.It is my opinion that it is not Motl's job or anyone else's,other than the individual,to determine wether or not a specific card value is fair.Motl says list prices,say I put my collectyion up for sale at $10,000.Well,I was told to put a price on it,a price I feel is fair.How can any of us determine what someone else may perceive is fair.
Personally in my trades and bussiness here I have found Motl's prices off somewhat,but that remains besides the point.
The point is if you show another human curtesy to begin with,your more likely to receive results when your looking for that same curtesy in return.
It is ALSO IMO,that this specific rule is,and pardon me,absolutly ignorant of common decency.I feel that any moderator or "leader"of this forum sould not pretend to enforce such an outlandish ruling against an innocent member,who otherwise,would have good intentions of doing bussiness.Now im not speaking of anyone specific,for I certainly have no connections with anyone here,and I do not wish to offend anyone,but this is the suggestion forum.And once more,thats my two cents.
EDIT:Also,anyone who wishes to stand behind me on this issue I ask to post here,prehaps if we get enough members to fight against this,we can prevail in AT LEAST some sort of revision of this ruleing.

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Here, I'll be kind.

Your lack of spacing hurts my head. Can you please try to type in a legible manner so I can actually get through one of your long posts without having to strain my eyes?

I don't think you're going to convince any of us to change our minds in how we handle this. Typically forum n00bs do get a warning shot. Their poorly priced threads don't become a hot spot until they respond in a manner such as Giggles did. Once they start taking shots at members and refuse to adjust their prices (as he did), then there's no reason it shouldn't be fair game.

EDIT: btw, the internet does makes it easier for people to be mean. However, it also makes it easier for people to try and scam the uninformed out of their money/cards.

__________________
Get "it" now

Im reasonably certain that harrassing people is not how you get what you want in life.Its not what life's about,and it is most certainly not what Magic's about.

quote:

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Originally posted by cyclonus23:
Again, we are not discussing that specific individual Iccarrus,we are discussing motl's rule.

Im reasonably certain that harrassing people is not how you get what you want in life.Its not what life's about,and it is most certainly not what Magic's about.

Since we are on the topic of kids being on here,is that truly a logistical teaching to be giving them?Harrass others=get what you want,the sad part is,it's the FORUM'S ruleing.

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But this specific example is what prompted the discussion in the first place. You can't say it has no bearing on the topic at all. It does. The reason why that rule exists is because of the many members EXACTLY like him that came before him.

You've been on this forum for under two months, so I'm cutting you some slack here. For those of us who have been on here for several years, have done dozens (if not hundreds) of deals through here, and plan to be here for some time to come...we know these people as soon as they make a post in the T/A forum. We know where it's going to go and we know why they are here. These people are not looking to become a part of the MOTL community. They are here to try and make a quick buck.

I don't want that to be a blanket statement. I'm sure there are some people who have done something stupid in their first attempted sale/buy thread. I'm sure they were ribbed a little bit about it and either took down the list or fixed the prices. I'm sure there's a few people still here who can say that.

But for those individuals who don't learn, that is why we have the "ridicule" rule. We don't want them here. They are against everything the quality reputation of MOTL as a safe trading site stands for.

__________________
Get "it" now

You've been around a very short time. Those of us who have been around a very long time know that "being polite" doesn't stop the predators from picking off the new guys around here. The rule was created long after people gave up trying to nicely convince the scammers and idiots to play nice and be fair. For the eleventy-bajillionth time. It. Does. NOT. Work.

__________________
Mort was already aware that love made you feel hot and cold and cruel and weak, but he hadn't realized that it could make you stupid.

All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

Report rules violations.

quote:

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Originally posted by cyclonus23:
Harrassing others,imo,does not promote a "quality reputation",it promotes ignorence and hatred.

Ive actually been on motl a few years back for about a year,under another name,and I plan on being here for awhile.Onthis issue my friends,I will be a constant fighter of,and a thorn in this rules side,for as long as I am here/the rule's around.

Hey your entitled to your opinion Iccarus...I will always treat you with the same respect you treat me,because I was raised that way.Isent that nice?

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Well, it's clear you have a nice respect for all rules...since you are violating one by admitting to having another username.

__________________
Get "it" now

Would it be so wrong for a mighty forum such as this to change such a ludacris policy?or would that be to humbling for some?These questions must be answered intelligently,before this is resolved.

quote:

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Originally posted by cyclonus23:
Hold on one second friend,That name was taken 2 years ago by me.I lost internet access and my computer.I dident know my old password when I tried to return AND consulted a Moderator on the issue.They told me to go ahead and create another username.Dont turn this into a personal war against me friend,im quite reputable here.I only wish to see a ridiculus rule abolished.

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Well, then you're clear on that count. Not trying to turn it personal, just trying to make a point.

You can feel free to argue against this rule all you want...but I have a strong feeling that it stays. Two mods have clearly already offered their support for it, and I'm sure other current and former mods who still post here would do the same.

__________________
Get "it" now

quote:

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Originally posted by cyclonus23:
Hold on one second friend,That name was taken 2 years ago by me.I lost internet access and my computer.I dident know my old password when I tried to return AND consulted a Moderator on the issue.They told me to go ahead and create another username.

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Please send me the details on this.

__________________
Mort was already aware that love made you feel hot and cold and cruel and weak, but he hadn't realized that it could make you stupid.

All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

Report rules violations.

quote:

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Originally posted by cyclonus23:
Hatred and harrassment simply get 0 results.You can argue against that until the cows come home Nder,in the end,kindness and respect do alot better...at the very LEAST for motl's rep.Do you see that kind of rule anywhere else?Would Salvation tolerate that?Certainly not.Nor would half the other respected forum's.I stand by my resolve.

EDIT:my responce to you Nder has been pm'ed.

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In my experience, that's absolutely positively wrong. You can say it all you want, but it doesn't make it true. People wanting to rip kids off will ignore politeness all day, but will usually give up when their scams are mocked openly.

__________________
Mort was already aware that love made you feel hot and cold and cruel and weak, but he hadn't realized that it could make you stupid.

All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

Report rules violations.

quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
Serious and respectful trading is for serious and respectful people. I simply don't see a reason to condone people trying to take advantage of others on this site.

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1.) The poster is innocent until proven guilty--there is no reason to say that s/he is trying to take advantage of people unless it has been proven. Some people just value cards a little differently, and others don't actually know the going rates. There is no official standard for valuing cards, which means that people's prices are going to differ. Hell, why does the Value forum exist if not to elucidate discrepancies in value (notably between real mean value and the MOTL price guide's values)?

2.) Nobody is saying that MOTLers should not be warned about possible threats: we are merely saying that there is no reason to be disrespectful about it. We have suggested a number of alternatives (we've given sample posts, and you can even email/PM respondents to warn them to be careful). Ridicule is not essential.

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It's been proven time and again that people simply stating "Your prices are way off" only leads to whining and complaining from the offending idiot that if they don't like the prices, leave. They don't learn.

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1.) "Your prices are way off" is not the most tactful way to put it.

2.) If you think that "your prices are way off" angers people and leads to complaints and whining, what do you think that "you're stupid, your cards are worth more/less" is going to do? All you're doing is making the problem worse by engaging in personal attacks and cyber-bullying.

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I fail to see how running off the dealers and wanna-be dealers who are only here to rip off kids who don't know better makes MOTL less safe or family-unfriendly.

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This isn't about protecting MOTLers, it's about creating a space that feeds the egos and post counts of certain more established members. If it was really about creating a friendly and safe family environment for everyone, then we would deal with these people respectfully and ask for the same in return. Members should not be taking [or be encouraged to take] the law into their own hands. If someone really crosses the line, then a mod should get involved and ask the offender to clean up his act or face the consequences.

And let's not forget that these "dealers" that you're running off could just as easily be young children who don't know any better, children whose eyes were larger than their stomachs, so to speak.

The problem is that you're allowing for the creation of an unfriendly and unsafe space, and you haven't even taken the time to delimit it. There is no official standard for pricing, so where do we draw the line? If a person values his/her cards one or two dollars above/below average, do we ridicule him/her? Does it need to be more? And if you can ridicule someone for being stupid about prices, why can't you ridicule people in other forums when they say something stupid (such as in a serious discussion)?

Again, disrespect merely compounds problems and sets bad examples for other members to follow.

Ridicule is completely uncalled for. Challenging prices should be fine, but ridicule need not enter into it. Again, if you're a parent trying to determine whether or not to allow your child to surf MOTL, that rule is not going to sit well.

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Unfortunately, the younger kids who don't know better sometimes get suckered by these scum, which is why they're here in the first place.

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I'm sorry, but I simply do not see how ridiculing the seller helps the potential buyers any more than a respectful post would.

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Either way, we're better off without someone like that around.

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That argument doesn't work in the real world, and it doesn't work here. Mob justice is not justice at all. Maybe we are better off without him/her, maybe not; but the ends do not and should not justify the means.

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As I've already pointed out, being polite has been tried before, and doesn't do a thing.

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I'm sorry, but how does insulting a person help potential buyers more than a polite and respectful warning post to all potential buyers does?

quote:

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Politely asking the person robbing you at gunpoint to stop isn't effective. More drastic measures are needed.

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1.) Your analogy is flawed, because the whole point of a non-buyer posting is not so much to ask the seller to stop and reconsider as it is to warn people in the vicinity that the seller is often asking for too much.

2.) Your analogy is also flawed because it implies that the people being robbed (and remember, you're an outside poster, so that's not even you) are justified in killing the robber, dismembering him, and hanging up his torn limbs as a warning to all potential robbers; something which is unacceptable. You simply cannot take the law into your own hands, or you are reduced to that same level which you condemn.

quote:

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Originally posted by iccarus: But this specific example is what prompted the discussion in the first place. You can't say it has no bearing on the topic at all. It does. The reason why that rule exists is because of the many members EXACTLY like him that came before him.

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1.) This thread concerns the rule, not specific instances of its application. If specific instances are relevant to the discussion/your point, you should link to them and explain why it is relevant. In this instance, I have not seen the post in question so I cannot comment on it, but if a member was ridiculed, then I do not doubt that there was an easier and more mature means of dealing with it.

quote:

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But for those individuals who don't learn, that is why we have the "ridicule" rule. We don't want them here. They are against everything the quality reputation of MOTL as a safe trading site stands for.

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So ban them, close the thread, or warn their potential buyers. If MOTL cannot deal with problems and problem traders in a mature and adult fashion, then MOTL cannot and should not pretend to be a safe family environment.

quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog: You've been around a very short time. Those of us who have been around a very long time know that "being polite" doesn't stop the predators from picking off the new guys around here. The rule was created long after people gave up trying to nicely convince the scammers and idiots to play nice and be fair. For the eleventy-bajillionth time. It. Does. NOT. Work.

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Cyber-bullying is not any more effective than respecfulness. Sure, you can't run someone off if you're respectful--but we shouldn't be trying to run people off in the first place. If we really want to create a safe family and trading environment, then we must not stoop to the levels that we condemn. As cyclonus said, ridicule and harrassment do NOT produce a respectable, quality reputation. There are other ways of dealing with disrespectful members.

Indeed, nowhere does it say on MOTL that dealers are unwelcome and should not be here--if it did, then the most effective strategy would be to ban them outright when they cropped up. At least it would be more legitimate (given the framework of law that we have created for ourselves) and less hypocritical than the means currently employed.

Once again, I would like to suggest a revision of the rule that is more in keeping with MOTL's stated mission. Currently, it reads as follows:

quote:

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There is, however, one exception to this rule. If a thread is sufficiently laughable, you may post to ridicule the poster. For example, someone offering to buy cards at half market value or selling at twice market value, or someone with zero refs demanding everyone send first, or an obvious rip attempt may all be safely ridiculed. Try not to be too mean.

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I propose that it read as follows:

There is, however, one exception to this rule: if a thread swings to an extreme (i.e. prices are much too high/low when compared to the prices in MOTL's Price Guide, a single post may be made to warn both the seller and potential buyers that the prices listed are currently unreasonable. This should not be treated as a means of increasing your post count, and you should not engage any party in an argument over it--save it for PMs/email.

The other thing that I find absolutely and fundamentally stupid is the notion that it's OK to ridicule new members with zero refs who are unwilling to send first. That IS a case of running off new members, and it should not be tolerated. If you do not wish to send first to someone, there is a respectful manner in which to do so, and it is more likely to produce a favourable long-term result than outright ridicule. If nothing else gets changed, this must be.

EDIT: Fixed a typo, added closing a post as an option.

__________________
"I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.
I do not think they will sing to me."
-T.S. Eliot

"Between that promise and the reality, there is an ocean. That ocean is called the Liberal Party." (Duceppe)

Glitch-Banned/Unbanned 18/03/06

RIP Ari

On the other hand, I think it is perfectly acceptable to tell someone that their prices are unreasonable and that you would be interested if they lowered the prices. I do not think it is necessary to make fun of them for their prices, as strange as they are.

Who is to say MOTL prices are the absolute. While I personally follow MOTL prices, someone else may value cards differently. Even if they seem ridiculous to you, they may have a reason for the high prices. Most likely they are trying to get a good steal, but it is not a foregone conclusion. In fact, they may be the noob that doesn't know any better.

I just think that if you see a post of this nature either:

1.) Tell them you are interested if they lower their prices.
2.) Hit the back button and chuckle to yourself over your thoughts on their prices.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to advise people that some members will try and take advantage of people who don't understand current prices. Provide a link to the MOTL price guides as MOTL's recommended guide to prices. This can be done either when a member signs up, or added to the rules area of the trading sections.