posted December 16, 2003 12:16 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Zoelef!:
Dear Magicalgenie1:
Are you really that dumb, or are you just using the same debate tactics that all your Rush-Rightist brethren use?

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Again with the name calling? Would you like to come to my pajama-hot chocolate-tickle fight slumber party too?

I used the above illustration of Plastered simply because I know where he's coming from, and he knows where I'm coming from. I assume you disagree with me as well, but I have yet to make an assesment as to whether or not you are a flag-burning commie, so you will note, that I, unlike you sir, have not labeled you.

However, just know that I heart you.

posted December 16, 2003 12:44 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by magicalgenie1:
Come on, we all know I am a nazi-goose stepping follow George Bush into the fiery pits of hell kind of guy

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Were that really the case (and it isn't), then I wouldn't dislike you. It's hard to blame someone for parroting propaganda when they are a moron. That's why, though I may have thwacked Deathling on a regular basis, I did not dislike him. You on the other hand are a different matter. I may accuse you of being a propagandist but I would never accuse you of being a moron.

The fact that you are undeniably intelligent, and *choose* to resort to debating tricks and self contradiction in order to promulgate propaganda, is what makes me dislike you. It's one thing to passionately believe something, it is quite another to arrogantly and self-servingly disregard and disrespect the opinions of others, no matter how valid. Ultimately it is disengenuous, and this is I think, the core of what cause me to dislike you and only you out of all the MOTL'ers I've chatted with over the years. Deathling may have been moronic and annoying, but at least he was honestly so.

quote:

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Originally posted by magicalgenie1:
and you are a flag-burning sandal wearing I heart Commie Dean kind of guy

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I don't burn flags, wear sandals, and neither myself or Howard Dean are communists. I also know you are smart enough not to think so, but then what you say and what you think are two different things.

quote:

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Originally posted by magicalgenie1:
so are these postings really gonna to change either of our opinions? Methinks not.

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If you didn't begin from that assumption you might succeed in changing my opinion. Nobody is etched in stone, and I don't consider allowing oneself to be convinced a sign of weakness. We should all aspire to being critical thinkers who can have our ideas challenged, and change our ideas in the face of evidence and compelling argument.

That said, even if these postings DON'T change either of our opinions, they are still valuable as a vehicle for seeing things from the other side's perspective, and in that way understanding the other side (provided of course, the other side is being honest, and actually interested in what you think.)

Such understanding is the first step to the compromise and agreement upon a middle ground that is so sorely lacking in our country today.

quote:

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Originally posted by magicalgenie1:
So in the meantime, lets make up, put on our PJ's, have a slumber party, drink hot chocolate and have a tickle fight to bury our differences.

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Genie, you're very sweet. Facetious, but sweet. I'll agree to separate my dislike of how you choose to conduct yourself from my opinion of you as a person, if you'll agree to second-guess yourself more often and make an honest attempt to see things from other people's points of view without trying to pigeonhole everyone into neat little boxes (a la "I love commie Dean flag burning, sandal wearing, hippies" and "goose-stepping Bushies".) Very few of us are so easily classifiable, and it does us all a disservice to assume otherwise. Honest, thoughtful discussion is very enlightnening and satisfying.

__________________
-- PlasteredDragon A.K.A. Chuck Seggelin
* ebayID: PDragon616

THE STONE RAIN PROJECT: I want your foreign or unusual Stone Rain cards!

posted December 16, 2003 01:11 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
It is with some fondness that I recall the time he assured us all that once in Iraq we would find stashes of chemical warheads with "Made In France" stamped on the side.

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LOL!! I missed this one at this time!

Magicalgenie1, you're so funny, please post .. less.

Eric.

posted December 16, 2003 01:23 PM            

Instead I find this trash. It's sick. Please stop. Go troll in the post for stuff rather than in a serious discussion topic.

posted December 16, 2003 02:02 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Goaswerfraiejen:
Wow, I came in here seeing two whole new pages since last night. Yippee, I thought, Many new, thoughtful posts, people trying to rip me to shreds along with everyone in the meantime... a real discussion, what.

Instead I find this trash. It's sick. Please stop. Go troll in the post for stuff rather than in a serious discussion topic.

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You have my formal apologies for my off-topic blather. Please explain why you believe Saddam should not be tried in an Iraqi court when he is guilty of the murders of countless Iraqis?

__________________
-- PlasteredDragon A.K.A. Chuck Seggelin
* ebayID: PDragon616

THE STONE RAIN PROJECT: I want your foreign or unusual Stone Rain cards!

posted December 16, 2003 02:11 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
You have my formal apologies for my off-topic blather. Please explain why you believe Saddam should not be tried in an Iraqi court when he is guilty of the murders of countless Iraqis?

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Plastered, the earth moved I think. If I'm reading you right, you think Saddam should be tried in Iraq..and....I do too.

The arguments I have heard against such is that absolutely no would could he get a fair trial in Iraq, blah,blah. Furthermore, anyone who would defend him is either dead, locked up, or on the run. Frankly, I could care less. I think some swift Arab justice is just what the doctor ordered.

The Hague? What a joke. Three years into Milosovich and they are no where closer.

And trying him in Guantanemo ... as much as I'd love it, I don't think politically that's what the US needs right now.

posted December 16, 2003 02:17 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by magicalgenie1:
Plastered, the earth moved I think. If I'm reading you right, you think Saddam should be tried in Iraq..and....I do too.

The arguments I have heard against such is that absolutely no would could he get a fair trial in Iraq, blah,blah. Furthermore, anyone who would defend him is either dead, locked up, or on the run. Frankly, I could care less. I think some swift Arab justice is just what the doctor ordered.

The Hague? What a joke. Three years into Milosovich and they are no where closer.

And trying him in Guantanemo ... as much as I'd love it, I don't think politically that's what the US needs right now.

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He does have a point. But then agian who, in their right mind, would defend saddam? And what defense would they use?

__________________
"If I'm not wasted; the day is."

posted December 16, 2003 02:21 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by super324:

He does have a point. But then agian who, in their right mind, would defend saddam? And what defense would they use?

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Certainly Saddam still has pockets if not a fairly large number of supporters in Iraq, and its not that big of a step to believe many of them are educated upper society who could serve as defense.

posted December 16, 2003 04:04 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
Please explain why you believe Saddam should not be tried in an Iraqi court when he is guilty of the murders of countless Iraqis?

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We-ell, let me first state that I don't believe an American trial is the way to go. I think we all agree on that.

Now, the international community did NOT support this war. The US and Great Britain sought our support (our being the international community) and didn't receive it. However, the US and Great Britain would like international help in rebuilding Iraq. Which is certainly a good idea. However, it's a bit like asking Mum to clean yer room after you trashed it, no? Anyway... the point is that Saddam was not removed through international agreement. Instead, America acted unilaterally, using the UN merely as a tool for legalizing warfare. However, if the UN is going to play Mum's role and clean up the room, then it should start with Hussein's trial, don't you think? Isn't that one of the primary messes?

Besides which, (it'll sound corny, I know) Hussein SHOULD be entitled to a fair trial, if he is to be tried at all. Which will mean an international judging panel, not an American-appointed Iraqi panel. Any Iraqi defense he might possibly have is either dead or on the run anyway. That sure doesn't make for an equitable trial. Besides... the "crimes" he committed in Iraq weren't crimes at the time. If the government allowed it, it was legal. Which amde them legal.

Ig his trial ISN'T fair, then he might as well have been summarily executed without one. It's when we jury-rig such affairs that we fall close to the pit of authoritarianism. A jury-rigged trial is just like a jury-rigged referendum: it's just an attempt to add legitimacy to somethign that will happen anyway. And that's what the US has effectively made of the UN: A tool for the legalization of warfare. Which is wrong and immoral, yes. But it's also a pity.

Fair enough for you?

posted December 16, 2003 07:16 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Goaswerfraiejen:

Which will mean an international judging panel,

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Unfortunatly when people mention international judging/trials it means no death penality. I think the Iraqis that watched their children murdered, wives raped
or entire family erased by Saddam and his regime should get their own brand of justice. Let Islamic law judge him.

posted December 16, 2003 07:19 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Wagamer:
Let Islamic law judge him.

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That would be a negative. You really want another "Islamic" nation on Earth? We have our hands full with the ones that are around now.

__________________
"If I'm not wasted; the day is."

posted December 16, 2003 07:24 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by super324:
That would be a negative. You really want another "Islamic" nation on Earth? We have our hands full with the ones that are around now.

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Who said another "Islamic" nation? Iraq will do just fine.

posted December 16, 2003 07:27 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Wagamer:
Unfortunatly when people mention international judging/trials it means no death penality. I think the Iraqis that watched their children murdered, wives raped
or entire family erased by Saddam and his regime should get their own brand of justice.

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And yet, if it ISN'T an international panel, death will be the sentence. There will be no question about it --- he will be sentenced to death. And that's precisely what shouldn't be happening. If death is to be the outcome anyway, he might as well be executed now, rather than ridiculing the whole process of law, turning it into the type of tool used by authoritarian regimes.

You don't always get what you want in life. That's a given. Saddam has been toppled. Let's let it rest at that, why don't we? Of course, nobody will. But if you try and please everyone all at once, then you won't please anyone. So you know what? I think that it's enough that Saddam is gone from power. I see no need to execute him.

And yes, I realize that what I want doesn't matter. So nobody start up on that tangent.

EDIT: Typo.

posted December 16, 2003 07:43 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Wagamer:
Who said another "Islamic" nation? Iraq will do just fine.

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Except that "Iraq" isn't really a country. It's just a pile of people rounded up and placed in a country, and the British stamped it. It would also be kind of hard to try him under Islamic law, because there are so many different types of Islam (Sunni, etc.). He will be executed. I agree that he shouldn't be, but the planet isn't yet at the state of affairs where it can allow something like that to happen.

posted December 16, 2003 07:54 PM            

And Iraq's leadership was appointed by the U.S.
Hmm, they'd be unbiased, I'll bet...

A nice lonely cell in the middle of nowhere sounds good to me.
Heh, and I'm pro-death penalty. Go figure.

posted December 16, 2003 07:56 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Porejide:
Except that "Iraq" isn't really a country.

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Have you looked at a world map lately, Iraq is most definately a country.

posted December 16, 2003 08:03 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Wagamer:
Have you looked at a world map lately, Iraq is most definately a country.

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Thanks for making it glaringly obvious that you you didn't read or understand his post

__________________
http://www.lennalf.com/clan/ for all your warcraft III guild needs

posted December 16, 2003 08:13 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Tab:
Thanks for making it glaringly obvious that you you didn't read or understand his post

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Obviously you have no idea what I read or understand, but you do show you ignorance, so let me explain to you. He didn't agree with me & I didn't agree with him, ergo my response to his post followed the same lines that his response to mine did...nonsense

posted December 16, 2003 08:15 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Wagamer:
Obviously you have no idea what I read or understand, but you do show you ignorance, so let me explain to you. He didn't agree with me & I didn't agree with him, ergo my response to his post followed the same lines that his response to mine did...nonsense

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Ergo spam. Stop spamming the bloody topic. Please.

posted December 16, 2003 09:04 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Kluckers:

A nice lonely cell in the middle of nowhere sounds good to me.

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Sounds like Napoleon on St. Helena.

__________________
A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money. -- G. Gordon Liddy

posted December 16, 2003 09:10 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Wagamer:
Who said another "Islamic" nation? Iraq will do just fine.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Wagamer:
Unfortunatly when people mention international judging/trials it means no death penality. I think the Iraqis that watched their children murdered, wives raped
or entire family erased by Saddam and his regime should get their own brand of justice. Let Islamic law judge him.

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Islamic law implies a Islamic state. You really want another Egypt, Syria, Saudia arabia, Iran type state existing in the world?

__________________
"If I'm not wasted; the day is."