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Author Topic:   Trading Tips
nderdog
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posted December 18, 2005 05:57 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for nderdog Click Here to Email nderdog Send a private message to nderdog Click to send nderdog an Instant MessageVisit nderdog's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View nderdog's Have/Want ListView nderdog's Have/Want List
I've been working on some updated safe trading information, and wanted to get some comments and suggestions on it.

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Many of the cases of people being ripped off arise because lots of traders have a lack of knowledge of how to properly protect themselves when trading online. Here are some tips and tools to use to help you.

1. Always search the Bad Trader Alert and Confirmed Bad Traders lists, using http://forums.magictraders.com/search.cgi?action=intro&default=3 Don't just search for a name or email address as both are easily changed. Always begin your search with the last name, street name, city and zip code, then see if the address of the person you are trading with is in one of the search results. One reason for this is that a ripper may intentionally misspell a city and/or street name or swap a couple digits in the zip code, relying on the postal service to catch the mistake and deliver it while not getting caught on a BTA/CBT search. When searching, do NOT use the "Search by User Name" option. This will only find posts that the specified username has posted on. Many rippers never respond to their own BTA threads, so this option isn't very effective. Use the "Search Words:" box, and type their username in there for more complete results.

2. Check their references. Do they have more than 1 or 2 poor refs? How many bad references do they have compared to the overall number? Are the bad references from a long time ago, and they've learned from past mistakes, or have they been a good trader until recently? Review the comments made and decide for yourself if they were warranted. Look at the dates of the references. Do they have none or very few from the past year or so? Be wary of a hacked account. Use the "Send e-mail to 10 randomly selected, confirmed references" link at the top of the reference list. It's there for your convenience!

3. For email-only offers where they claim to be a MOTL member, check to make sure the email address actually matches the user. Pay special attention to the difference between 0 (zero) and O (capital o), 1 (one) and l (lower-case L) and I (capital i), which are commonly used tricks of rippers. I always copy the email address and paste it into the MOTL member search just to be sure. Also watch for slight misspellings (maybe a doubled-up or non-doubled-up letter, or underscore or something) in the email address. Make sure the domain matches (username@yahoo.com vs. username@hotmail.com)

4. Be sure to check both the confirmed list and the Bad Trader Alerts Forum. If they are confirmed do NOT trade! If they are in the Bad Trader Alerts then use your best judgment after fully reading any and all cases against them. If there is more than one, that should serve as a red flag. See if they were posted for sending late on a trade, backing out of trades, or ripping.

5. If you feel uncomfortable with a trade even though you can't find them on our list, I would recommend using a 3rd Party trader. This is done by finding a trustworthy impartial person. They will collect both parts of the trade, and when they receive the cards from each of you, they will send the cards on. This usually will cost a little extra to compensate them for the extra shipping, but it's a small price to pay to insure you don't get ripped off. Do be wary of those who demand that you use "my friend so-and-so" as the 3rd Party trader. The whole idea is to select someone that you both feel comfortable with and trust. You may also use an escrow service such as www.escrow.com for large deals.

6. If things just don't feel right after all of that, even if they aren't listed in the CBT or BTA, and they either decline 3rd Party, or you can't both agree on a 3rd Party, simply decline the trade and move on. There are plenty of other traders out there for you to deal with.


The items listed below are things that may raise suspicion. Honest traders may do the same things, though, so don't jump to any conclusions because of these things. Just be a bit more careful.

1. When replying to emails, they don't keep the text of old emails, so trade details aren't included. This is sometimes the result of an email provider, though.

2. The trader won't give a real name, only their MOTL handle or something in the address, such as:
The Bad MoJo,
123 Nowhere Road
Somewhere, OR 12345

3. The offer is heavily in your favor. Remember, if it sounds too good to be true, it almost certainly is.

4. They don't have any trading lists posted.

5. They always seem to have just the cards you need, particularly better ones that aren't on their trade lists.


How to be a responsible trader:

1. Spend some time looking through the Bad Trader Alerts forum. Read through cases, and you'll get ideas of how rippers operate, what bad trading practices people are getting in trouble for and how cases are resolved. The more of these you read, the better informed you'll be.

2. Send your packages with insurance. Per MOTL rules, the sender is responsible for ensuring that their package arrives at it's destination safely. Costs increase significantly when sending overseas for this type of service and aren't always available, so you may want to check on this before agreeing to a trade with someone from another country.

3. Keep all emails of trades at least until the deal is fully completed. Without these, you won't have the evidence necessary to post a BTA case should you need to. I would recommend permanently keeping emails in a "MOTL Completed Trades" folder for reference. You never know when you might get someone asking about a specific trader and your deal with them or need to verify someone's address.

4. Make sure to exchange addresses with the other party before sending. The address exchange is confirmation of the trade. If one party is sending first, then the deal is confirmed when that party receives the other's address and when the cards will be sent. Note that if money is being paid through PayPal, giving the PayPal address is a sufficient substitute for a physical address since nothing will actually be sent to the real address.

5. Before exchanging addresses, ask the other party to confirm the editions, conditions and language of the cards you are to receive. Do not assume that all cards are English and near-mint condition. When discussing condition, be sure to agree to a common standard. Your idea of NM may be entirely different than someone else's. A scale such as this with pictures and descriptions can be helpful. Scans are good, but can be misleading, so be careful.

6. Many members choose to trade with members with a high number of refs until their own ref count is high enough to not have to send first to those with very few references.

7. Make sure to confirm the trade by email if the deal was worked out by instant messenger, MOTL PMs or other mode. This provides a more reliable record of the trade for reference, and given the ever-increasing size limits of online mail systems, should provide ample storage for all of your trades over time so you can refer back to them later when you receive an email from someone checking up on references of someone they are planning to trade with or just to see who you've had good trading experiences with and would like to try and trade with again.

If you get an email from someone that appears to be an impersonator (an email-only offer from a different email address or the email address is slightly different), please contact a BTA Moderator immediately. They will give you further instructions. You may be asked to fake a deal with the impersonator to obtain their address. If, and only if, you are instructed by a Moderator to do this, you will not be in any trouble for backing out of a trade or any other such actions.


What to do if you think you have been ripped off:

1. Communicate, communicate, communicate! Ask the person when they sent. Ask if they can have their package tracked. Try and resolve any disputes by yourselves. The BTA is a last resort to use only if the other party is unresponsive (be sure to give them ample time to get back to you, not just a day or two) or the two of you can not reach a resolution after a good-faith effort.

2. Know the appropriate timeframes. For a trade within the same country, you need to wait 2 weeks. For international mail, wait 1 month. Yes, most mail arrives much quicker, but give the other trader the courtesy of being patient.

3. Have all of the information necessary. Prove that they received your cards. You sent with a form of tracking, right? Follow up and make sure the postal service shows it has been delivered. Was this a simul-send situation but they didn't send at all or sent late? Note the postmark on the package.

4. Include all relevant information when posting a BTA case. When in doubt, post it. Make very sure to post all email headers. If you don't know how, contact someone to find out. This is necessary evidence to prove your case.

5. Don't be shy about posting a BTA case if you've done all of the above. Even though they have more references than you or they seem like a good trader, you have a right to post them.


Even taking all of the precautions available and doing everything you can to protect yourself, you most likely will lose cards at least once. For this reason, NEVER send out cards that you can't afford to lose.


Other trading guidelines:

You are required to specify if your cards are Collector's Edition, World Championship Deck cards or the like. Any card that is non-tournament legal (has a gold-bordered front or a non-standard back on it) fits this category.

If your cards are heavily played, bent, written on and such, you are required to disclose that before confirming a trade. Cards should be at least Excellent condition unless you notify the other party.

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[Edited 7 times, lastly by nderdog on June 03, 2009]

thestack
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posted December 18, 2005 06:43 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for thestack Click Here to Email thestack Send a private message to thestack Click to send thestack an Instant MessageVisit thestack's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Let me say, as a new user, that a lot of this has been very helpful.

Also, I just wanted to note what I mentioned in your chat: that references aren't always the best guideline for a person's honesty unless they are in high numbers. On AIM we agreed that 50-75 is probably a good, reliable number of refs to determine safely the honesty of the trader. The reason being is that refchecks are not required upon completion of a trade; it is easy for a person, when they do not feel they will receive a 4 or 5 and nice comment, simply not to ask for a reference (unlike E-bay, where each transaction comes with feedback).

thestack

 
moxdiamd
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posted December 18, 2005 06:51 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for moxdiamd Click Here to Email moxdiamd Send a private message to moxdiamd Click to send moxdiamd an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Very nice nderdog. Now if we can just get people to actually read it and follow it, we will be in good shape.

__________________
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Misprint: 0

 
nderdog
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posted December 18, 2005 07:05 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for nderdog Click Here to Email nderdog Send a private message to nderdog Click to send nderdog an Instant MessageVisit nderdog's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View nderdog's Have/Want ListView nderdog's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by moxdiamd:
Very nice nderdog. Now if we can just get people to actually read it and follow it, we will be in good shape.


That's the next phase of the plan. It's just a matter of getting this set up right.

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Lord_Yawgmoth
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posted December 18, 2005 07:59 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Lord_Yawgmoth Click Here to Email Lord_Yawgmoth Send a private message to Lord_Yawgmoth Click to send Lord_Yawgmoth an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Excellent job nderdog!! By the way, as a suggestion I think it would be a good idea for the moderators to compile and post a list of users that you can trust in the third-person trading situation. Just a thought...
 
evilempire22
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posted December 18, 2005 08:34 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for evilempire22 Click Here to Email evilempire22 Send a private message to evilempire22 Click to send evilempire22 an Instant MessageVisit evilempire22's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View evilempire22's Have/Want ListView evilempire22's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by moxdiamd:
Very nice nderdog. Now if we can just get people to actually read it and follow it, we will be in good shape.


Or get The Stack 3 going...

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BoltBait
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posted December 18, 2005 09:35 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for BoltBait Click Here to Email BoltBait Send a private message to BoltBait Click to send BoltBait an Instant MessageVisit BoltBait's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lord_Yawgmoth:
By the way, as a suggestion I think it would be a good idea for the moderators to compile and post a list of users that you can trust in the third-person trading situation. Just a thought...

You mean, like this?

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nderdog
Moderator
posted December 18, 2005 09:51 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for nderdog Click Here to Email nderdog Send a private message to nderdog Click to send nderdog an Instant MessageVisit nderdog's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View nderdog's Have/Want ListView nderdog's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Lord_Yawgmoth:
Excellent job nderdog!! By the way, as a suggestion I think it would be a good idea for the moderators to compile and post a list of users that you can trust in the third-person trading situation. Just a thought...

That was discussed, but the staff decided that it's not appropriate for MOTL to endorse people for 3rd party trades. As Bolty pointed out, there is a list of people who do provide the services, but there won't be an official list.

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Billy Bones
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posted December 19, 2005 12:52 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Billy Bones Click Here to Email Billy Bones Send a private message to Billy Bones Click to send Billy Bones an Instant MessageVisit Billy Bones's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
It's possibly I may have missed where you stated this in there, so appologies if you already did, but be sure to point out:
"A lost opportunity is a lot different than lost money." In other words, if somebody is unsure about a deal and worst comes to worst, simply don't do it. It's a lot better to have a good opportunity and pass it up than to think you have a good opportunity and lose a bunch of money.

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nderdog
Moderator
posted December 19, 2005 06:14 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for nderdog Click Here to Email nderdog Send a private message to nderdog Click to send nderdog an Instant MessageVisit nderdog's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View nderdog's Have/Want ListView nderdog's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Billy Bones:
It's possibly I may have missed where you stated this in there, so appologies if you already did, but be sure to point out:
"A lost opportunity is a lot different than lost money." In other words, if somebody is unsure about a deal and worst comes to worst, simply don't do it. It's a lot better to have a good opportunity and pass it up than to think you have a good opportunity and lose a bunch of money.


I think that's covered adequately in #6 of the first section:

"If things just don't feel right after all of that, even if they aren't listed in the CBT or BTA, and they either decline 3rd Party, or you can't both agree on a 3rd Party, simply decline the trade and move on. There are plenty of other traders out there for you to deal with."

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thestack
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posted December 19, 2005 01:53 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for thestack Click Here to Email thestack Send a private message to thestack Click to send thestack an Instant MessageVisit thestack's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by evilempire22:
Or get The Stack 3 going...


I'm sorry, but is this a reference to me?

Or are you talking about a Type 4 stack?

Forgive my ignorance in either case.

thestack

 
wrshp666
Member
posted December 19, 2005 01:54 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for wrshp666 Click Here to Email wrshp666 Send a private message to wrshp666 Click to send wrshp666 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by thestack:
I'm sorry, but is this a reference to me?

Or are you talking about a Type 4 stack?

Forgive my ignorance in either case.

thestack


no, no relevance to you, the stack is like...a huge donation of cards that are sold to keep motl lively and good. we've had 2 succesful stacks and now the 3rd 1 should be up hopefully soon....rite nder

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thestack
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posted December 19, 2005 02:37 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for thestack Click Here to Email thestack Send a private message to thestack Click to send thestack an Instant MessageVisit thestack's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by wrshp666:
no, no relevance to you, the stack is like...a huge donation of cards that are sold to keep motl lively and good. we've had 2 succesful stacks and now the 3rd 1 should be up hopefully soon....rite nder


Where can I get information about this? I will donate for MOTL sustenance.

When are the cards sold? Are they sold on this message board by a moderator?

Thanks!

[Edited 1 times, lastly by thestack on December 19, 2005]

 
wrshp666
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posted December 19, 2005 02:40 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for wrshp666 Click Here to Email wrshp666 Send a private message to wrshp666 Click to send wrshp666 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by thestack:
Where can I get information about this? I will donate for MOTL sustenance.

When are the cards sold? Are they sold on this message board by a moderator?

Thanks!


talk to nder dog bout it

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azn pride!! got rice b!tch???
#2 for posts in San Diego
#5 for refs in San Diego
#6 for posts in california
#22 for refs in California
#10 for 15 and under eternal players in the u.s.
# 14 in the world for 15 and under eternal players (and gunning for top 10 before late april looks grim....)

 
stemplar206
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posted December 19, 2005 04:45 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for stemplar206 Click Here to Email stemplar206 Send a private message to stemplar206 Click to send stemplar206 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by thestack:
Where can I get information about this? I will donate for MOTL sustenance.

When are the cards sold? Are they sold on this message board by a moderator?

Thanks!


This link should answer your questions.

 
white_wolf
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posted December 24, 2005 12:24 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for white_wolf Click Here to Email white_wolf Send a private message to white_wolf Click to send white_wolf an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by wrshp666:
no, no relevance to you, the stack is like...a huge donation of cards that are sold to keep motl lively and good. we've had 2 succesful stacks and now the 3rd 1 should be up hopefully soon....rite nder


Yeh it is a great way to support the site and help keep it from becoming a site where we have to pay to use it....the better the cards donated, the more is raised for the cause (hint hint!)....though what ever cards you want to donate are welcome.....

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samus_ssp
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posted December 24, 2005 11:55 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for samus_ssp Click Here to Email samus_ssp Send a private message to samus_ssp Click to send samus_ssp an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
To increase the likely hood that traders will look at this you shouls sticky it to the top of the have/want list and sales/auction forums. Very nice list nderdog.

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nderdog
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posted February 15, 2006 04:38 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for nderdog Click Here to Email nderdog Send a private message to nderdog Click to send nderdog an Instant MessageVisit nderdog's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View nderdog's Have/Want ListView nderdog's Have/Want List
Reminder/request for comments.

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La_Sin_Grail
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posted February 15, 2006 04:56 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for La_Sin_Grail Click Here to Email La_Sin_Grail Send a private message to La_Sin_Grail Click to send La_Sin_Grail an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Remember that if you get ripped, filing mail fraud will not only help recover your losses, but is a public service.
 
Volcanon
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posted February 16, 2006 09:29 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Volcanon Click Here to Email Volcanon Send a private message to Volcanon Click to send Volcanon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
You might want to add something like:
If you dont know card values, the price guide is invaluable, but common sense is needed when dealing with junk (when I used to play T1, I would keep getting offers of a few T2 junkrares for my dual).
 
nderdog
Moderator
posted February 16, 2006 10:38 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for nderdog Click Here to Email nderdog Send a private message to nderdog Click to send nderdog an Instant MessageVisit nderdog's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View nderdog's Have/Want ListView nderdog's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Volcanon:
You might want to add something like:
If you dont know card values, the price guide is invaluable, but common sense is needed when dealing with junk (when I used to play T1, I would keep getting offers of a few T2 junkrares for my dual).

This is designed for safe trading, not valuing trades or avoiding bad trades.

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nderdog
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posted February 17, 2006 01:01 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for nderdog Click Here to Email nderdog Send a private message to nderdog Click to send nderdog an Instant MessageVisit nderdog's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View nderdog's Have/Want ListView nderdog's Have/Want List
I've updated this a bit with additional info on searching the BTA/CBT. If anyone has any comments about things being unclear or instructions that would be hard for a new user to understand, please let me know, thanks.

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nderdog
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posted April 14, 2006 07:21 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for nderdog Click Here to Email nderdog Send a private message to nderdog Click to send nderdog an Instant MessageVisit nderdog's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View nderdog's Have/Want ListView nderdog's Have/Want List
Looks like we need a reminder of this, given a couple BTA cases that I just dealt with.

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pyr0ma5ta
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posted April 14, 2006 02:30 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for pyr0ma5ta Click Here to Email pyr0ma5ta Send a private message to pyr0ma5ta Click to send pyr0ma5ta an Instant MessageVisit pyr0ma5ta's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
It's annoying how many people ignore the rules. I have 2 current cases on the BTA list because people didn't send first, and I'm about to post 2 more because I sent first and never got the card. Ugh, people disgust me. I just hope I can get my money back for the other two cases ($120+ each!)

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sys41o
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posted August 24, 2006 06:46 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for sys41o Click Here to Email sys41o Send a private message to sys41o Click to send sys41o an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I think a bump is in order to remind traders, new or old.
 

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