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Originally posted by bigbob585:
I'll chime in for you guys.

Market prices are generally 75% of dealer prices. Popular legacy cards will be at about 80%. If you think about it, store overhead accounts for at least 20% of those expenses and is the reason for this difference.

As a dealer, there are a few ways to go about pricing but to get accurate dealer prices you should average the top 10 online magic stores.

I consistently see people buying cards for the lowest TCG player price for cash even though every store selling there gets hit with a 10% fee at minimum for fees and commissions to them.

While there's nothing wrong with the general public attempting to get dealer prices on cards, it's simply outrageous to tell people that you want dealer prices when you are not a dealer and don't have overhead.

Just running my online shop without any full time employees costs well over $1500/mo in overhead.

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No offense bigbob, and to other real dealers, but that seems to be the case among alot of mtg players, saying that they are "dealers" or "shop owners." or whatever...

I occasionally purchase from B@M stores, but only if its a good deal; or is the same price after shipping is applied online. Did find a Dakkon Blackblade (LGNDS), EX+ in a shop once for $8 last year, snap buy.

But the problem eventually extends down to corrupt dealers/store owners as well, who leverage their position in a market niche in small towns. I really have a problem with some of those guys..
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Joz - can we ban Leshrac for not fixing the Chrome PM issue?

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I have a problem with people who say they are dealers, go to other card shops and try to bully their way into getting cards cheap.

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Originally posted by daner:
Because people are idiots.
Remember, if you don't own a store front, and possibly a online store too(not just an ebay account) your'e not a dealer...you just sell Magic cards.

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+1.

Daner, this is why i like you.

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Originally posted by bigbob585:

Just running my online shop without any full time employees costs well over $1500/mo in overhead.[/B]

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Curious, how did you incur $1500 in overhead costs per month running an online store? Web-hosting don't cost that much, right?

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:
This sounds pretty bad, but some of the posters in this thread sound like they pretty much hate anyone that tries to make any money selling cards, not just people that actually try to pass themselves off as dealers.

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Originally posted by otrtrader:Midyea's Workshops.[/B]

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Mishra's Workshops?

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Joz - can we ban Leshrac for not fixing the Chrome PM issue?

Them: No way this is worth that little.
Me: Yeah man, it's based on Ebay and some other things, it's worth x.
Them: What? It's worth at least X+5.
Me: Well that's like, what I can buy them for all day.
Them: Then you got a good deal.
Me: Yeah man, wanna buy them at x+1?
Them: Pshh, no?
Me: That's like $4 in your pocket. I mean you can easily move them at x+5 if they're worth at least that right?

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Originally posted by otrtrader:
Ive ran booths at flea markets, have worked at card shops as a buyer, and have 2 really good friends (one in Indiana and one in Georgia) who own card shops. The reason I started this thread is because I've seen at both those shops, at gencon, on here, and pretty much every where inbetween, everyone seems to think they are a dealer. I don't have a problem trading up occasionally, or selling to make a lil extra money. But when everyone is going by SCG or t&t or bb for sell prices then that's when i have the problem. Random guy who opened a pack an pulls a Chase rare shouldn't go "ill sell this at whatever starcity has it at". Now trading, I don't have a problem if I trade with you and your like well SCG has this at this price, ill be like ok the site I have use has it for this so let's take the average and that's the price we will trade at. I don't think everyone hates ppl who try to make money at the game, just those who think they cross that line between player/collector and dealer.
And here is one of my good deeds in magic: guy walks into a shop with about a 1k count box to sell to the shop owner. He was busy and told the guy he wasn't buying cards at that time (there was an fnm tournygoing on). As he tried to leave I stopped him and told I'm ill look at his cards. So I looked through about 200 of them and saw nothing but maybe all dollar rares (best card was a beat chrome mox). So I told him from what I saw I could only offer him $50 for the box and he took it. He stayed there for a while and I decided to go through the box, and found 4 NM-/EX+ Mishra's Workshops. I knew they were atleast 150 each so I walked over to him told him what I found and handed him $400 more to even it out a bit.

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In Asia, many people do try to be dealers, sell at SCG prices, buy at shops' buy-in prices. There was a GP in Singapore ~2 years ago. 1 of my overseas customer told me that he look forward to sweeping Singapore clean of Legacy/Extended cards --> he thought he can get better prices by buying directly in Singapore instead of buying from me.

End result: That customer told me that he was blown away by Singapore's MTG scene. Everyone with a trade binder (or 2-3 binders) seem to be a dealer. It was tough to find anyone who sell at prices lower than mine. His conclusion "In Singapore, everyone is a dealer".

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Originally posted by MTDetermine:

*used to collect duals (1300 at peak), shocklands (800 at peak), FOW (150 at peak). But those FTV reprints drove me to sell off a lot of them. [/B]

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Joz - can we ban Leshrac for not fixing the Chrome PM issue?

The only way to counter this squeeze is to have some competitive advantage. Like having a suddenly-hot card at a tournament. Or by bullying less aggressive types so you buy low or sell high.

As a collector, I am used to "trading", which I define simply as a fairly equal transaction that helps both parties. Unfortunately, with everyone trying to be "dealers", I find it more and more difficult to do actual "trading".

This shouldn't be the case. I have tons of lower-value legacy wants, tons of high-value cards, and I am more than willing to trade down. A big problem is that the cards I want (like mint condition junk rares from early Magic sets) aren't easily found in quantity. Another is that potential traders often want to add up SCG singles sell prices (as an example, since they are widely quoted) for basic rares against a $50 or $100 or $200 legacy card from me. I've had traders try to value a stack of junk rares at higher prices than the full sets they came from. Unfortunately that kind of math never works.

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Sounds like that box was stolen, really.

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I dunno, a lot of people sell off boxes of stuff at garage sales and what not because they don't know how much it's worth. Craigslist has ads for stores and people selling/buying collections all the time. Most of the time they overvalue them ($800 for my 6,000 card collection of mostly bulk) but sometimes they undervalue.

A 1k ct. box is a little low but it seems like lots of people have magic cards sitting around, some of them being gold mines.

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But when everyone is going by SCG or t&t or bb for sell prices then that's when i have the problem. Random guy who opened a pack an pulls a Chase rare shouldn't go "ill sell this at whatever starcity has it at".

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Do you actually know that this guy thinks he's a dealer, or is he actually just ignorant of how much he can reasonably get for the card? I'm sure there ARE some wanna-be dealers, but that's one of the things I've been trying to get at.

Being a dealer means that it's a full time job, you have overhead such as marketing expenses, website hosting, possibly employees, a full service business (active buy/sell lists, wide range of inventory items and not just playable cards).

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As a collector, I am used to "trading", which I define simply as a fairly equal transaction that helps both parties. Unfortunately, with everyone trying to be "dealers", I find it more and more difficult to do actual "trading".

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At one point, I was just "trading" too. But honestly, I think having a lot of these semi-dealer-type people are what keeps trading moving along. If I were still actively playing, I would (a) trade for stuff I wanted to collect OR (b) trade for stuff I want to build decks with. (a) is a fairly small and specific number of cards and (b) isn't always an active trade-list because I'm not looking to build a new deck every week.

So in the meantime, the only reason for me to trade is to trade for value. I can either increase the value of my collection by trading for better cards (stuff that won't sell for stuff that will) or by trading down (for a premium) and then finding someone else that is willing to trade down without as much of a premium (so I end up with the same card, plus say 10% extra I got for trading down the first time).

But I don't see the problem with either of the above. People that do trade with me are happy with the trade. They get stuff they need, I get stuff I want. It's not like I'm saying I'll give you a bunch of total crap for a dual. If you decide to trade with me, I'm actually giving you $40-45 worth of stuff for that Badlands. I make a tiny bit of profit off of it, and that's the reason I made that trade, but it helps keeps trading healthy and going on a macro level and people are still getting stuff they want.

And yeah, I get the part where people try to value stacks of junk rares or whatever. But that's still just people being ignorant... they're probably pack openers that think that because a pack costs $2.99 (or whatever they are now) the contents must be worth $3, and that there are no such things as bulk rares worth only 0.12.

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Originally posted by joz:

...what FTV reprints of thos...? Or are you talking about exiled, relics and dragons fearing that they would eventualy FTV FOW/Duals/Shocklands?

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Yes, at the time of FTV Exiled, I was very concerned they will sooner or later FTV Duals/FOW. It was not until FTV Relic that WOTC clarified that they will no longer print anymore Reserved List stuff. By that time, my Duals are down to 500+. FOW is not on the Reserved list so watch out for that --> I only keep up till 40 FOW as inventory nowadays.

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Originally posted by Ihateworking:
I see no problem in asking full price for my cards, I don't play and I don't need anything. If you want to trade with me at full price(or more if you are offering new crap for my my cards from the 90s) then that's fine. If not I don't have a problem keeping the cards I own, most of which I have picked up on a semi-individual basis. I've got the time to sit around and wait for someone that does.

I base my prices on my personal interest, market values and my intuition, if you can't handle that then move along, its a free market society.

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Your price does not look like "dealer price". Your prices are more of MOTL price. I think the definition of "dealer price" is SCG sell price.

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Originally posted by hammr7:

These kinds of problems have given me a greater appreciation for "real" dealers. Real dealers have cut me quantity discounts for purchases of cards, especially those that aren't high on player's wish lists.

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There are a few "dealers" here where for $1-2 cards, they will always marked it up by $1.50-$2.00. So you have $2.50 Hellspark Elemental, $3 Day of Judgment....at least these 2 are playables that people buy. But you have a lot of instances of some real obscure barely-playable rares that you have to pay $2-3 if you are looking for it. The fixed $1.50-2.00 markup makes sense if "one values the labor input of buying, arranging these $1 rares". But I think its a bit insane, waiting for weeks for a guy to turn up buying a $1 card for $3.

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Originally posted by joz:
Seriously, now I need a picture of you so I can enshrine it in the Hall of Heros I have in my shower.

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Originally posted by oneofchaos:
I tend to have a moral obligation not to rip people off unless they are dealers who got lazy to keep up with something (like the guy I got 45 scapeshifts off of at a quarter each and sold to another dealer at 4 each) or if they over 18 and have the capability to "fend for themselves". I don't take advantage of our fledgling players.

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U r m Hero.

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Joz - can we ban Leshrac for not fixing the Chrome PM issue?

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Originally posted by MTDetermine:
For me, I never thought of myself as a dealer. I thought I am a collector* who happens to sell cards when it is profitable to do so. Apparently, many of my customers disagree and they are the ones who put the title of "dealer" on me. Customers are usually right so I will live with that.

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So, you're not a "dealer", and yet you have "customers" and "inventory" and "500 duals". Hmm...

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Originally posted by oneofchaos:
I tend to have a moral obligation not to rip people off unless they are dealers who got lazy to keep up with something (like the guy I got 45 scapeshifts off of at a quarter each and sold to another dealer at 4 each) or if they over 18 and have the capability to "fend for themselves". I don't take advantage of our fledgling players.

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and they don't find the fact that you're buying 45 of them fairly suspicious? lol. Most dealers limit you to 4 or 8 or such.

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Originally posted by Harmless:
And I'm curious where people sell things for cash anyway. Every LGS or event I've ever been to forbids the selling of cards for cash.

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Originally posted by caquaa:
not in Singapore. Apparently its only bad to sell sealed stuff there. Kinda a hard concept for anyone in the US to grasp as its typically not that way at all.

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You need to know the evolution of MTG here. When MTG started, the shops only sell boosters/starters. None of them sell singles. All the players will just mingle at the public space outside the shops to play MTG, and trade MTG. As barter trade is harder to execute, everyone does cash trades.

By ~1997, there was a shop that had a space for people to play MTG. Again, the shop does not sell singles (its main market is comics). So people can freely sell singles in the shop space.

After years, everyone here had gotten used to using cash to buy. 95% of all trades here are cash, maybe 5% barter. If a shop bans people from selling cards, it will just annoy the players. I mean, you need to provide an avenue for the shop's drafters to sell off their singles, right?

For MTG Events such as Pre-Releases, it is slightly different. A shop (or a few) will spend money to rent a trade table in the gaming room (around 100-200sqm). Within the room, you can only buy/sell from the trade table. But the MTG Events are held in an exhibition centre so there is plenty of space outside. What people do is, they will exit the room and do cash trades there among themselves.

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Originally posted by Harmless:
So, you're not a "dealer", and yet you have "customers" and "inventory" and "500 duals". Hmm...

And I'm curious where people sell things for cash anyway. Every LGS or event I've ever been to forbids the selling of cards for cash.

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I started in 2007 as a collector. But as I buy more and more P9/Duals/Shocklands, I faced with cashflow problems. So I started selling them so that I can buy even more.....I never thought of myself as a dealer until last year when some of my customers said I am a "trader" (dealer/trader is used interchangeably here).

Anyway, according to daner's definition (below), I am not a dealer ---> I do not have shop space or much overheads. So I am pleased to find someone who agrees that I am not a dealer/trader, merely a collector =)

Daner's Definition of Dealer
"Because people are idiots. Unless you own a store you probably shouldn't walk around thinking you're a dealer, because you're not. You hit the nail on the head with the dealer "overhead" comment. I don't blame people for trying to squeeze every penny out of their cards with the current economy but it is getting a little rediculis. Now I'll wait for some "dealer" to chime in on the subject and tell us that we are wrong.

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Originally posted by joz:
But the problem eventually extends down to corrupt dealers/store owners as well, who leverage their position in a market niche in small towns. I really have a problem with some of those guys..

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Switzerland => Small towns, small supply, niche market.
And people wonder why I pull my hair out every time I walk in a local game store.

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Originally posted by caquaa:
not in Singapore. Apparently its only bad to sell sealed stuff there. Kinda a hard concept for anyone in the US to grasp as its typically not that way at all.

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Originally posted by daner:
Because people are idiots. Unless you own a store you probably shouldn't walk around thinking you're a dealer, because you're not.

Remember, if you don't own a store front, and possibly a online store too(not just an ebay account) your'e not a dealer...you just sell Magic cards.

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So, having an actual incorporated business, even if you don't have a store front, doesn't count? I'm sorry, but there are quite a few people who would disagree with that, especially one of the bigger private dealers in the tri-state area (not me). As for me personally, I wouldn't consider myself a dealer, just buying and selling cards, as you put it. I don't have spend all my time doing it, because Magic is not my only job. But I still am incorporated, registered in the state of New York, and still have to think of things as a business.

That said, there still isn't a need for me to have crazy prices (unless the price drops and I am just slow to react, which happens all the time) and buy insanely low. However, if someone asks for value of my cards and I can get a little higher than e-bay price without totally ripping someone one off, I am going to do it. I think anyone would, regardless of how they stand in the game of Magic.

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