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Originally posted by MAB_Rapper:

So, having an actual incorporated business, even if you don't have a store front, doesn't count? I'm sorry, but there are quite a few people who would disagree with that, especially one of the bigger private dealers in the tri-state area (not me). As for me personally, I wouldn't consider myself a dealer, just buying and selling cards, as you put it. I don't have spend all my time doing it, because Magic is not my only job. But I still am incorporated, registered in the state of New York, and still have to think of things as a business.

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If you are an incorporated business that's one thing. I guess I left that out, still you do not have the overhead of a store front, online costs, or any employees do you? I'd bet the answer is no.

I could incorporate myself into business if I wanted to as well, doesn't mean jack **** really. You've basically protected yourself from liability and you pay taxes, whoo. Now I think you're just trying to split hairs. Just because I do side work landscaping doesn't mean I'm a CEO.

So if you claim to be just buying and selling cards why get all defensive?

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Originally posted by daner:
If you are an incorporated business that's one thing. I guess I left that out, still you do not have the overhead of a store front, online costs, or any employees do you? I'd bet the answer is no.

I could incorporate myself into business if I wanted to as well, doesn't mean jack **** really. You've basically protected yourself from liability and you pay taxes, whoo. Now I think you're just trying to split hairs. Just because I do side work landscaping doesn't mean I'm a CEO.

So if you claim to be just buying and selling cards why get all defensive?

You still don't have a store, overhead, employees, and like you said it's not your main job so your life isn't finacially tied to it. What's your argument for someone like that? You really think someone qualifies as a dealer with just being incorporated?

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Yeap, I agree, I am not a dealer =)

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Originally posted by MTDetermine:
Yeap, I agree, I am not a dealer =)

Just a collector selling surplus cards at prices which his customers like a lot =)

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Are you being sarcastic or do you actually agree with me? It's one thing to call yourself a dealer, and that's fine, do as you want. I just don't agree with your assessment if it's not A. Your business and primary souce of income B. You have a storefront and online store in which you have an overhead and possibly C. You have other employees working under you.

When I think of "dealer" something like SCG, Gamingetc., C/F come to mind...etc etc. The first post was why are people trying to ask for the same prices on buy/sell lists as these stores/dealers? People have given you reasons, I have given you reasons, if you don't qualify towards any of these reasons you're probably just selling cards to make an extra buck here and there. Which there is nothing wrong with that might I add. I just wouldn't call yourself a dealer if it's something you do on the side.

If you get upset about my assessment on wether or not you're a "dealer" then you probably fall into the category most people have described as NOT a dealer...but rather some idiot who thinks they are one.

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Originally posted by otrtrader:
I think daner should be a counselor and MOTL should make a dealers anonymous page so they can get help. Lol

But seriously, the reason I created this topic was to see why the average person, casual or collector, feels they should charge other ppl the same price, if not more, for a card that SCG does or T&T. They don't even take into account their overhead, they see a price and say "if they sell for that there, then I will charge that price too.

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To answer this question in-depth, you need to look at the different range of prices and ask yourself which part of the value chain you occupy.

1) Retail Price - SCG Prices? Approx 30% higher than MOTL
2) Top of ebay range. Approx 10-20% higher than MOTL
3) Mid ebay range. ~MOTL price
4) 10-20% below MOTL price. Maybe bigger sale, or seller just want the convenience/safety of a local cash sale
5) 30-40% below MOTL. Selling of Collection.

I guess most people who sell on MOTL becos they dont like feebay and MOTL allows them a situation where they can get mid ebay prices without paying for feebay fees, which are easily 12%. Buyers on MOTL are willing to pay for 3) because it helps to remove the uncertainty of auctions and maybe, convenience?

For SCG, due to higher overheads (rental, labor), they need large margins. So they tend to buy in at 5) and sell at 1). They provide assurance (branding), wide range, convenience so people who have money but not much time to hunt for cheap cards go to them (Imagine you earn $100-200k/yr and need to hunt down 50 type of singles for your EDH deck. You will probably just go to SCG and buy for the convenience)

For me, I buy in at 3) and sell at 2). The value I provide to my buyers are a) prices lower than full retail (SCG) and b) convenience, c) large range, d) assurance of condition. Also benefited hugely from economies of scale because it is common on ebay for sellers to ask for $15 registered mail for purchases over $100.

I guess the members who sell to me at 3) can do so because they are buying in at 4) and 5). While they can sell at 2), they will have to wait quite a while for business. So selling at 3) allows them to replenish cash faster and to pursue another deal/collection.

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Originally posted by daner:

A. Your business and primary source of income --> Not my primary source of income while I was working. Now out of graduate school, hunting for job. Will not be primary income once I got a job

B. You have a storefront and online store in which you have an overhead --> No storefront, no online store. No overhead except for my internet connection, which I will still pay for even if I am not trading

C. You have other employees working under you --> Lone ranger

When I think of "dealer" something like SCG, Gamingetc., C/F come to mind...etc etc. The first post was why are people trying to ask for the same prices on buy/sell lists as these stores/dealers?

---> My Buy-in Prices are higher than the likes of SCG. My sell prices are lower than the likes of SCG. So I am not asking for same prices as them

If you get upset about my assessment on wether or not you're a "dealer" then you probably fall into the category most people have described as NOT a dealer...but rather some idiot who thinks they are one.

---> I always thought I am a collector who sells stuff when there is a profitable opportunity. Its people who buy from me who label me as a dealer *signs*

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There are a bunch of people who sell cards to make some money but I don't think I've seen anyone calling themselves dealers unless they actually were one (bigbob), at least on here.

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But seriously, the reason I created this topic was to see why the average person, casual or collector, feels they should charge other ppl the same price, if not more, for a card that SCG does or T&T. They don't even take into account their overhead, they see a price and say "if they sell for that there, then I will charge that price too.

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:
@daner, I'm trying to figure out exactly what you have a problem with. Since you just said there's nothing wrong with making a buck here and there, is your issue only that people label themselves as a dealer when they're not?

There are a bunch of people who sell cards to make some money but I don't think I've seen anyone calling themselves dealers unless they actually were one (bigbob), at least on here.

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I really don't have a problem because the people who fall under my category I just avoid. Yes, if you want to make an honest buck that's cool....I do it from time to time myself. The main gripe that not only I but others have shown is when someone thinks just because they are selling cards they can get dealer prices like they are some big shot business. Look around...it's not hard to find them on MOTL. People who overvalue their cards and undervalue yours in trades/sales/buy lists.

When you see ~ Buying Jace, TMS for under $40 and Selling Jace, TMS for $60+ on the same sales list one wonders how big your brain is...or are you balls that big?

I would consider myself a small time local dealer, but my prices are for the most part pretty good. I have almost zero overhead and can pay more/charge less. In person I charge 5-10% over ebay auction ending prices, which is still quite a bit lower than any local store and at least comparable to the cheapest online vendors. When I buy stuff I will offer to either give a % of the ebay prices, between 60-75% depending on what it is or to beat SCG buylist by 8% (Some exceptions for cards they are buy super high). Most people end up choosing the SCG option for some reason, even though it ends up being a lot less for them on most cards.

On here, I price most things at or a bit below the price guide.

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Originally posted by daner:
If you are an incorporated business that's one thing. I guess I left that out, still you do not have the overhead of a store front, online costs, or any employees do you? I'd bet the answer is no.

I could incorporate myself into business if I wanted to as well, doesn't mean jack **** really. You've basically protected yourself from liability and you pay taxes, whoo. Now I think you're just trying to split hairs. Just because I do side work landscaping doesn't mean I'm a CEO.

So if you claim to be just buying and selling cards why get all defensive?

You still don't have a store, overhead, employees, and like you said it's not your main job so your life isn't finacially tied to it. What's your argument for someone like that? You really think someone qualifies as a dealer with just being incorporated?

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I'm not going to argue here, because there is no point. I'm just going to point out that you left out the other half of my post, which pretty much agreed with you.

__________________
MOTL's Most Likely to Play in the Pro Tour - 2007, 2008, and 2009
(My Nationals)

You don't get a reputation as a consistent, reputable dealer (seller or even buyer) until you have proven it, time and time again. And until you are reputable you need to do something special to earn my business.

If there is a new restaurant in town they throw me a two-for-one coupon to try and entice me to try them out. A new business might have a catered open house. The new gym or health club sends me a free one-week membership. And I get at least one offer a week for a free meal from someone who wants to be my financial adviser.

You don't just get to sell at premium prices, you need to prove you are worthy of it. The same goes for Ebay sellers. There used to be a guy "brap" out of Vermont that sold all sorts of Magic stuff. When I first began assembling my early sets, I purchased great cards from him. Eventually I would pay a premium if he was selling cards I needed. The reasons were simple: I knew he graded harder than I did, so if he said a card was Mint it really was. And I knew that if I purchased from him I would get my card quickly and safely. So there was virtually no risk in any transaction I did with him.

Even with someone like "brap" I didn't initially pay a premium. Over time he proved himself. Not only to me, but to many others, who were also willing to pay the premium (what would now be SCG pricing). The wannabes are usually asking for the premium pricing without ever having proved they deserved it.

Which brings me to attitude. Most dealers are looking for a long-term relationship, not just a chance interaction. My dealings with the major online dealers I interact with, like those earlier interactions with "brap", were built on respect. They went the extra mile when I had a concern or a problem. As a result I sought them out (and continue to seek them out) to address my needs. Too many of the wannabes have a "take it or leave it" attitude (to go along with their premium buy / sell spreads) that preempts meaningful dialog or a long-term relationship. I'm a reasonable person, and I expect reasonable interactions.

When your so-called dealership is little more than a serious of profitable quick hits; when your focus is solely on maximizing the immediate profit; when you are so into your own importance that you lose the ability to interact on a personal level - rather than strictly on "what's in it for you", then even if it is your primary source of income you are at best a speculator. Its not that your interests aren't important, its just that immediate interests should be balanced against the longer term interests.

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Originally posted by bcclar77:
Something that no one seems to have brought up yet, is: do you have a retail account with Wizards? Sure, someone can buy from a 3rd party distributor, who charges more, but Wizards won't set up an account with someone unless they're very legit.

I think that's a big factor on who is/isn't a dealer. Dealer's have the added burden on making a profit on packs they crack. Trader/Dealers, the MTDetermine type, only have the burden of maknig a profit when buying and selling. Much easier that having to maintain orders of 10 cases per set or whatever it is to maintain gold level and therefore get the best prices and perks from Wizards.

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As far as I know they stopped doing that. I used to bag an acct. With wizards and was one of their premier dealers in the late 90s. But I was told they stopped the direct from wizards acct. Maybe 2007. All the stores I know of have to go through a distributor to get their product.

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The main gripe that not only I but others have shown is when someone thinks just because they are selling cards they can get dealer prices like they are some big shot business. Look around...it's not hard to find them on MOTL. People who overvalue their cards and undervalue yours in trades/sales/buy lists.

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Alright, yeah, I can certainly agree with that. When I see SCG type buy/sell prices I just hit the back button. I guess I just still don't see it as them being deliberately annoying and actually having the "dealer mentality" (again, my ignorance/clueless argument). Most of them, anyway--I'm sure some really do (there are some that come out and say "this is how much SCG sells for, if you don't like it go away").

I just didn't really get how all the formalities mattered with regards to incorporation, storefront, website, employees, selling cards being your primary source of income, etc. (some other people have brought this up also, not just you). I see labels as just being a formality, because I couldn't care less whether you're a "true dealer" or not--I only care what your prices are and what your reputation is (if I'm dealing with you in person, the only thing that matters is your price unless it's dealing with potential fakes, e.g., beta Lotus, but I can spot most fakes myself. I know I'm getting the cards because they're right in front of me). Yeah, sure, if you want the formal dealer label, you should probably have some of those things... but what does it honestly matter?

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Originally posted by NiceFaceLOL:
Most of the people that do that on here just never sell anything.

I would consider myself a small time local dealer, but my prices are for the most part pretty good. I have almost zero overhead and can pay more/charge less. In person I charge 5-10% over ebay auction ending prices, which is still quite a bit lower than any local store and at least comparable to the cheapest online vendors. When I buy stuff I will offer to either give a % of the ebay prices, between 60-75% depending on what it is or to beat SCG buylist by 8% (Some exceptions for cards they are buy super high). Most people end up choosing the SCG option for some reason, even though it ends up being a lot less for them on most cards.

On here, I price most things at or a bit below the price guide.

There are a number of people that do similar things around where I live so the prices might just be good because it's competitive. No one that attempts to sell cards for retail does so for very long.

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I think you're probably exactly the type of person people are getting miffed at. 60% of ebay is very low, and I'm not sure how you came to settle on 8% over SCG, but I'd wager that it's probably generally even lower. Don't take that or anything hence as hostility from me though, as I'm simply expounding on popular opinion.

For those of us in the US, there is fierce competition; people like MTDetermine are arbitrageurs (which I believe he may have mistakenly referred to as "economies of scale"), which is why he can buy-in at MOTL prices when many struggle to sell for those same prices.

I'm always curious where these "local types" are buying and selling in person. I'd get kicked out of any physical venue in which I tried to transact with cash. And I don't trade anymore due to the time-consuming haggling that occurs over which values to use, so I just buy and sell online. It's probably better than trading anyway, since you can set your own numbers, which can often be the high end of buy prices (when you buy) and the low end of sell prices (when you sell), meaning you're breaking even in the end anyway.

And your average Joes who attempt to sell for retail simply do not sell. There's no point in getting angry at them, since they're operating under what is most likely just ignorance and they will either go away fast or get with the program and lower their prices.

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Originally posted by MAB_Rapper:
I'm not going to argue here, because there is no point. I'm just going to point out that you left out the other half of my post, which pretty much agreed with you.

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Originally posted by Harmless:
I think you're probably exactly the type of person people are getting miffed at. 60% of ebay is very low, and I'm not sure how you came to settle on 8% over SCG, but I'd wager that it's probably generally even lower. Don't take that or anything hence as hostility from me though, as I'm simply expounding on popular opinion.

For those of us in the US, there is fierce competition; people like MTDetermine are arbitrageurs (which I believe he may have mistakenly referred to as "economies of scale"), which is why he can buy-in at MOTL prices when many struggle to sell for those same prices.

I'm always curious where these "local types" are buying and selling in person. I'd get kicked out of any physical venue in which I tried to transact with cash. And I don't trade anymore due to the time-consuming haggling that occurs over which values to use, so I just buy and sell online. It's probably better than trading anyway, since you can set your own numbers, which can often be the high end of buy prices (when you buy) and the low end of sell prices (when you sell), meaning you're breaking even in the end anyway.

And your average Joes who attempt to sell for retail simply do not sell. There's no point in getting angry at them, since they're operating under what is most likely just ignorance and they will either go away fast or get with the program and lower their prices.

Oh, and great post, MTDetermine; I think you summed up the tiers very well.

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60% is mostly for cards that are rotating soon or their season is ending. I also did say that the 8% over SCG is almost always lower than the eBay percentages. For a large majority of these people getting 65-70 of ebay prices on the cards is way better than selling to any dealer and not too much worse than ebay. When they ebay cards it's most likely from an account with not much feedback which doesn't affect the price a bunch but if someone can buy it from you or the 10000 rating superseller, they won't be picking you.
Then with fees and the time it takes to package and ship (These people don't mail a ton of cards, they probably don't have bubblemailers and toploaders laying around) plus the time it takes to actually sell them. They aren't even that much worse off than if they ebayed them on their own.

For the selling in stores: I do most small transactions (under ~50) with concealed cash. Then for bigger sales I can either walk outside (all of the stores local to me have food withing a short walk so it doesn't seem odd.) or just take credit card transactions with my phone.

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Originally posted by mchainmail:
Most local stores I know involve "going out for a smoke." I also have the ability to paypal money via phone, etc.

One of the larger retailers in the northeast (Jupiter Games) doesn't ban cash sales; the store has everything, so players tend to go there first. (And the other transactions tend to be hundreds of dollars worth of pimp or corner-case cards.

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Originally posted by Volcanon:
Banning selling, and even trading, is based on flawed retail theory.

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There are stores that ban trading?

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Originally posted by WCFmo:
There are stores that ban trading?

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Yeah one of the ones around here had it banned for awhile, but he lifted it for whatever reason. Probably because people ignored it?

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Originally posted by hilikuS:
Yeah one of the ones around here had it banned for awhile, but he lifted it for whatever reason. Probably because people ignored it?

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