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Author Topic:   2011 Dec Banlist
WeedIan
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posted December 12, 2011 09:15 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for WeedIan Click Here to Email WeedIan Send a private message to WeedIan Click to send WeedIan an Instant MessageVisit WeedIan's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View WeedIan's Have/Want ListView WeedIan's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Heresy19:
I'll stick with my:

Unban Worldgorger Dragon!

I wish :/


Degenerate 2 Card combos usually don't' get unbanned either as much as i love this combo.

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RJM
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posted December 12, 2011 11:47 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for RJM Click Here to Email RJM Send a private message to RJM Click to send RJM an Instant MessageVisit RJM's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View RJM's Have/Want ListView RJM's Have/Want List
I'd still like to see Survival of the Fittest come off the list. I still don't get how that card was doing anything that is "unfair" or "unfun" to the metagame.
 
MTDetermine
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posted December 12, 2011 11:48 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for MTDetermine Click Here to Email MTDetermine Send a private message to MTDetermine Click to send MTDetermine an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
A bit confused after reading everyone's comments. The summary is probably:

Some think Snapcaster is too strong in Legacy/Modern, while others think it is balanced and not overwhelming.

Too Strong Camp:
1) Can flashback brainstorms + other nasty 1-2 drop spells

Balanced Camp:
1) Need 3-4 drop to do something with it
2) If you flashback a socery, you need to cast it within your turn
3) And if Snapcaster is nasty, its probably Brainstorm that is too nasty

[Edited 1 times, lastly by MTDetermine on December 12, 2011]

 
choco man
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posted December 13, 2011 04:40 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for choco man Click Here to Email choco man Send a private message to choco man Click to send choco man an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View choco man's Have/Want ListView choco man's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by MTDetermine:
A bit confused after reading everyone's comments. The summary is probably:

Some think Snapcaster is too strong in Legacy/Modern, while others think it is balanced and not overwhelming.

Too Strong Camp:
1) Can flashback brainstorms + other nasty 1-2 drop spells

Balanced Camp:
1) Need 3-4 drop to do something with it
2) If you flashback a socery, you need to cast it within your turn
3) And if Snapcaster is nasty, its probably Brainstorm that is too nasty


You missed this part:

quote:
Originally posted by Tha Gunslinga:
Let's just hope we see Bertoncheaty on the Dec 20th list.


 
MAB_Rapper
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posted December 13, 2011 07:02 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for MAB_Rapper Click Here to Email MAB_Rapper Send a private message to MAB_Rapper Click to send MAB_Rapper an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View MAB_Rapper's Trade Auction or SaleView MAB_Rapper's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by Speed Demon:
So ban it in vintage, LDO. It's not like anyone plays that format anyways. Vintage is the 1%

You apparently live nowhere on the Eastern Coast, especially anywhere in the Northeast through Mid Atlantic, where Vintage tournaments happen weekly.

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MeddlingMage
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posted December 13, 2011 07:32 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for MeddlingMage Click Here to Email MeddlingMage Send a private message to MeddlingMage Click to send MeddlingMage an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View MeddlingMage's Have/Want ListView MeddlingMage's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by RJM:
I'd still like to see Survival of the Fittest come off the list. I still don't get how that card was doing anything that is "unfair" or "unfun" to the metagame.

This.
One of my ALL TIME favorite cards.

~MM

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Thanos
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posted December 13, 2011 08:13 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Thanos Click Here to Email Thanos Send a private message to Thanos Click to send Thanos an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MAB_Rapper:
You apparently live nowhere on the Eastern Coast, especially anywhere in the Northeast through Mid Atlantic, where Vintage tournaments happen weekly.


+1

 
Speed Demon
Banned
posted December 13, 2011 09:13 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Speed Demon Click Here to Email Speed Demon Send a private message to Speed Demon Click to send Speed Demon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 

3) And if Snapcaster is nasty, its probably Brainstorm that is too nasty

THIS

 
Speed Demon
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posted December 13, 2011 09:14 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Speed Demon Click Here to Email Speed Demon Send a private message to Speed Demon Click to send Speed Demon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MAB_Rapper:
You apparently live nowhere on the Eastern Coast, especially anywhere in the Northeast through Mid Atlantic, where Vintage tournaments happen weekly.


I have lived in south florida for the last 27 years. I was just in NYC for 3 weeks, boston for 4 days, and philly for 1.5 weeks and saw ZERO people raving about vintage.

Sorry. You are the 1%.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Speed Demon on December 13, 2011]

 
MAB_Rapper
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posted December 13, 2011 09:22 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for MAB_Rapper Click Here to Email MAB_Rapper Send a private message to MAB_Rapper Click to send MAB_Rapper an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View MAB_Rapper's Trade Auction or SaleView MAB_Rapper's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by Speed Demon:
I have lived in south florida for the last 27 years. I was just in NYC for 3 weeks, boston for 4 day, and philly for 1.5 weeks and saw ZERO people raving about vintage.

Sorry. You are the 1%.


So, if Vinatge doesn't matter, then by does WotC make any changes to the banned/restricted list for us?

Also, NYC and Boston doesn't have Vintage tourneys. LI, Jersey, and various areas in Penn do.

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Speed Demon
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posted December 13, 2011 10:10 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Speed Demon Click Here to Email Speed Demon Send a private message to Speed Demon Click to send Speed Demon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MAB_Rapper:
So, if Vinatge doesn't matter, then by does WotC make any changes to the banned/restricted list for us?

Also, NYC and Boston doesn't have Vintage tourneys. LI, Jersey, and various areas in Penn do.


I'm going to assume your "by" is meaning "why". Why do they do it? Oh, I don't know, they are the governing body of the game. That doesn't mean you're not the 1%

Do you read my posts or do you just skim them? YOU ARE THE ONE PERCENT.

99% DO NOT CARE ABOUT VINTAGE.

Until the entire US and world plays vintage you will be a minority.

Hell, I'd place money (and give you odds) there is more EDH players than Vintage players.


Snapcaster is not the problem. The problem is your busted ass cards.

Fine, Let's say Snapcaster gets restricted in vintage on 12/20. You know what happens to snapcaster's price? NOT A DAMN THING.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Speed Demon on December 13, 2011]

 
farsk8dutch
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posted December 13, 2011 11:14 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for farsk8dutch Click Here to Email farsk8dutch Send a private message to farsk8dutch Click to send farsk8dutch an Instant MessageVisit farsk8dutch's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View farsk8dutch's Have/Want ListView farsk8dutch's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Speed Demon:
I'm going to assume your "by" is meaning "why". Why do they do it? Oh, I don't know, they are the governing body of the game. That doesn't mean you're not the 1%

Do you read my posts or do you just skim them? YOU ARE THE ONE PERCENT.

99% DO NOT CARE ABOUT VINTAGE.

Until the entire US and world plays vintage you will be a minority.


Where are the surveys that support this, or is this just your opinion. Just because Vintage isn't heavily supported it doesn't mean that no one cares about it. There is plenty of Type 1 action out there if your looking for it but four days in Boston and a week so in Phily isn't going to spawn a Vintage scene upon your arrival to accommodate you. Although, I could be wrong but you would've enjoyed yourself had it happened. Unless you don't like T1?

quote:
Hell, I'd place money (and give you odds) there is more EDH players than Vintage players.

This is, for the most part, obvious.

 
yakusoku
Member
posted December 13, 2011 11:32 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for yakusoku Click Here to Email yakusoku Send a private message to yakusoku Click to send yakusoku an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I think in this discussion, we need to clarify whether we are talking about absolute numbers or percentages.

It almost seems as if you guys are arguing two different points, and misinterpreting the other's words.

Given that there are hundreds of thousands of Magic players, if only 1% care about Vintage enough to follow the B/R list, that means that there are still thousands watching to see if there are any changes. So, in that sense, WotC still has thousands of people who still support the format.

However, as a percentage, I think most of us would concede that the number of people playing almost all the other formats is greater than Vintage players.

So, while WotC may maintain the B/R list for Vintage, they may not spend as much energy and time on it that they do for Legacy or Modern.

Whether "nobody" cares depends on whether you mean that the absolute nubmer is close to 0 or the relative percentage is dangerously close to 0. The absolute number of players is certainly a non-zero quantity, but the percentage of players must be coming close to a rounding error, or sampling size error if you asked a survey of 1000 random people which formats they play.

 
Speed Demon
Banned
posted December 13, 2011 11:46 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Speed Demon Click Here to Email Speed Demon Send a private message to Speed Demon Click to send Speed Demon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by yakusoku:
I think in this discussion, we need to clarify whether we are talking about absolute numbers or percentages.

It almost seems as if you guys are arguing two different points, and misinterpreting the other's words.

Given that there are hundreds of thousands of Magic players, if only 1% care about Vintage enough to follow the B/R list, that means that there are still thousands watching to see if there are any changes. So, in that sense, WotC still has thousands of people who still support the format.

However, as a percentage, I think most of us would concede that the number of people playing almost all the other formats is greater than Vintage players.

So, while WotC may maintain the B/R list for Vintage, they may not spend as much energy and time on it that they do for Legacy or Modern.

Whether "nobody" cares depends on whether you mean that the absolute nubmer is close to 0 or the relative percentage is dangerously close to 0. The absolute number of players is certainly a non-zero quantity, but the percentage of players must be coming close to a rounding error, or sampling size error if you asked a survey of 1000 random people which formats they play.


QFT

THIS TIMES INFINITY.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Speed Demon on December 13, 2011]

 
MAB_Rapper
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posted December 13, 2011 11:47 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for MAB_Rapper Click Here to Email MAB_Rapper Send a private message to MAB_Rapper Click to send MAB_Rapper an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View MAB_Rapper's Trade Auction or SaleView MAB_Rapper's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by Speed Demon:
Fine, Let's say Snapcaster gets restricted in vintage on 12/20. You know what happens to snapcaster's price? NOT A DAMN THING.

Well, it won't, so that point is moot.

But here is the thing. All the changes that are being talked about involve Modern, Legacy, or Vintage. And yes, most people do not play Vintage. However, I would also venture to say that most Magic players do not play Legacy or Modern either. Even it is 51% of Magic players, that is still most players.

As for what I think:

Modern - Nothing for now
Legacy - Brainstorm banned, blue is just too powerful right now.
Vinatge - Nothing for now, but I will not be surprised if Gush is restricted again.

quote:
Originally posted by Speed Demon:
QFT

THIS TIMES INFINITY.


Um, yaku kinda pretty much disgareed with you, since he pretty much stated that thousands of players care about the announcement. Unless I fully misunderstood his entire post.

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[Edited 1 times, lastly by MAB_Rapper on December 13, 2011]

 
Pringlesman
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posted December 13, 2011 12:31 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Pringlesman Click Here to Email Pringlesman Send a private message to Pringlesman Click to send Pringlesman an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MAB_Rapper:

As for what I think:

Modern - Nothing for now
Legacy - Brainstorm banned, blue is just too powerful right now.
Vinatge - Nothing for now, but I will not be surprised if Gush is restricted again.


This. Right now it's really hard to justify not playing a blue deck packing 4x brainstorms. Blue based control decks are just way too good and with the plethora of fetchlands they can just fix there hands too easily with Brainstorm and Ponder. I'm just worried about control decks not being good enough to keep down the combo decks without there ability to brainstorm in response to a combo piece to find a key piece of control magic. I rather Blue based control decks be too good than ritual based combo decks being too good.

 
Speed Demon
Banned
posted December 13, 2011 12:46 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Speed Demon Click Here to Email Speed Demon Send a private message to Speed Demon Click to send Speed Demon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
omg, MAB, it's pointless talking to you since you have repeatedly ignored me.

I have said vintage players are the 1%.

1% of 1,000,000 is 10,000.

Congratulations.

And honestly, it's probably vintage players are in the 0.1%-0.5%.


"However, I would also venture to say that most Magic players do not play Legacy or Modern either. Even it is 51% of Magic players, that is still most players."

I can't believe you're can actually play this game well and then spew this garbage nonsense. Completely ridiculous.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Speed Demon on December 13, 2011]

 
junichi
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posted December 13, 2011 12:51 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for junichi Click Here to Email junichi Send a private message to junichi Click to send junichi an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View junichi's Have/Want ListView junichi's Have/Want List
Everyone is pulling % garbage out of their hole.

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choco man
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posted December 13, 2011 01:24 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for choco man Click Here to Email choco man Send a private message to choco man Click to send choco man an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View choco man's Have/Want ListView choco man's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Pringlesman:
This. Right now it's really hard to justify not playing a blue deck packing 4x brainstorms. Blue based control decks are just way too good and with the plethora of fetchlands they can just fix there hands too easily with Brainstorm and Ponder. I'm just worried about control decks not being good enough to keep down the combo decks without there ability to brainstorm in response to a combo piece to find a key piece of control magic. I rather Blue based control decks be too good than ritual based combo decks being too good.

I hope Brainstorm isn't banned. It is very good, probably the best thing you can do in the format. Whether they stand for a Brainstorm ban or not, I think most Legacy players would rather non-blue cards just get better than just ban Brainstorm. Making Aether Vial or Chalice of the Void decks stronger would be nice. It's what I want for Christmas.

For disclosure, I play with neither Brainstorm and/or Chalice of the Void/Aether Vial. I play zoo.

 
SageShadows
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posted December 13, 2011 01:32 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for SageShadows Click Here to Email SageShadows Send a private message to SageShadows Click to send SageShadows an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by junichi:
Everyone is pulling % garbage out of their hole.


Well, the Occupy Wall Street protest has probably influenced 99% of percentages.

 
MAB_Rapper
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posted December 13, 2011 01:56 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for MAB_Rapper Click Here to Email MAB_Rapper Send a private message to MAB_Rapper Click to send MAB_Rapper an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View MAB_Rapper's Trade Auction or SaleView MAB_Rapper's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by Speed Demon:

"However, I would also venture to say that most Magic players do not play Legacy or Modern either. Even it is 51% of Magic players, that is still most players."

I can't believe you're can actually play this game well and then spew this garbage nonsense. Completely ridiculous.


Take the blinders off of your witch hunt of me, like you are Drew Levin going off on Alex. What I stated is an absolute truth, much like your truth about Vintage players as a whole.

I agree, yes, Vintage is a small group of all Magic players, but they can not be ignored, otherwise you lose people who will buy your product. I don't know, but even in the "prime" of the game, WotC can not afford to have 10,000 people stop buying cards and playing the game in this economy.

Now, if you want to try and debate that, please do, but be ready for everyone to sit back and laugh at your garbage.

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coasterdude84
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posted December 13, 2011 02:37 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for coasterdude84 Click Here to Email coasterdude84 Send a private message to coasterdude84 Click to send coasterdude84 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View coasterdude84's Trade Auction or SaleView coasterdude84's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by Pringlesman:
This. Right now it's really hard to justify not playing a blue deck packing 4x brainstorms. Blue based control decks are just way too good and with the plethora of fetchlands they can just fix there hands too easily with Brainstorm and Ponder. I'm just worried about control decks not being good enough to keep down the combo decks without there ability to brainstorm in response to a combo piece to find a key piece of control magic. I rather Blue based control decks be too good than ritual based combo decks being too good.

I don't play blue, but I don't have a problem with Brainstorm. It's a very good "blue" (in flavor that is) utility card. And if you wanted to stop Brainstorm, Mental Misstep was a pretty good option. I'm still holding out hope Wizards will see the error of their ways and unban that.

I really think things like Jace2.0 are problematic, much more so than either Brainstorm or Misstep or even Survival. The purpose of the banned list, as I understood it, is to stop people from playing degenerate, unfun cards. I could see where they were coming from when they banned Survival (though I disagree with the claim it was unstoppable; it was easy to stop), but Misstep? I didn't care any more about getting Misstepped than I did about FoW, Daze or even Counterspell. Misstep didn't power a combo like Mana Drain could. It wasn't an infinite counter engine, the way counter-tops arguably can be. In fact, it gave non-blue decks a fighting chance against a lot of those combo decks. Misstep added a fun, new dynamic to the game by giving non-blue decks a decent counter option. Sure, it was better in a blue deck, but not rediculously so.

Jace2.0, on the other hand, is quite unfun. I hate playing against it, and I feel dirty even playing it because, in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, "this card isn't fair." What I'd like to see from this round is Misstep unbanned and Jace2.0, Grim Monolith, and maybe Time Spiral banned. What I'll likely get is nothing, or the banning of something harmless.

 
WeedIan
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posted December 13, 2011 04:13 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for WeedIan Click Here to Email WeedIan Send a private message to WeedIan Click to send WeedIan an Instant MessageVisit WeedIan's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View WeedIan's Have/Want ListView WeedIan's Have/Want List
I don't think Jace will get banned but the +2 can be a real game ender.

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NiceFaceLOL
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posted December 13, 2011 04:56 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for NiceFaceLOL Click Here to Email NiceFaceLOL Send a private message to NiceFaceLOL Click to send NiceFaceLOL an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
The reason Jace won't be banned is because people don't realize that after two turns of it being in play you have already lost. The see themselves losing to batter skull or tarmogoyf or any other win condition. It stops a lot of people from correlating their loss to Jace. I wouldn't mind if it got banned as it adds a lot more variance to blue mirrors in legacy.
 
daner
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posted December 13, 2011 07:00 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for daner Click Here to Email daner Send a private message to daner Click to send daner an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View daner's Have/Want ListView daner's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by SageShadows:
Well, the Occupy Wall Street protest has probably influenced 99% of percentages.

I giggled, then the % of how much I liked you went up.

EDIT: based solely on %'s of course.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by daner on December 13, 2011]

 

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