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Originally posted by NiceFaceLOL:
The reason Jace won't be banned is because people don't realize that after two turns of it being in play you have already lost. The see themselves losing to batter skull or tarmogoyf or any other win condition. It stops a lot of people from correlating their loss to Jace. I wouldn't mind if it got banned as it adds a lot more variance to blue mirrors in legacy.

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pretty sure this isn't correct. It was banned from standard and the same applied then.

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What I'd like to see from this round is Misstep unbanned and Jace2.0, Grim Monolith, and maybe Time Spiral banned. What I'll likely get is nothing, or the banning of something harmless.[/B]

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Originally posted by NiceFaceLOL:
The reason Jace won't be banned is because people don't realize that after two turns of it being in play you have already lost. The see themselves losing to batter skull or tarmogoyf or any other win condition. It stops a lot of people from correlating their loss to Jace. I wouldn't mind if it got banned as it adds a lot more variance to blue mirrors in legacy.

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Originally posted by choco man:
The main variance in blue mirrors is skill.

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You mean what you draw, opening hands, and who gets to play first.

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Originally posted by MagicPatty:
You mean what you draw, opening hands, and who gets to play first.

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Originally posted by choco man:
Are you describing the only reasons why you, personally, win games?

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Well I can't speak for you, because obviously you must out-play the hell outta everyone in a blue mirror, but even when you match pros together something as simple as who goes first, what each person draws, etc etc ...yes that can determine the outcome of a mirror match.

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Originally posted by RJM:
Grim Monolith... what?

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Turn 2 infinite mana. Certainly nothing wrong there...

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Originally posted by choco man:
Are you describing the only reasons why you, personally, win games?

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Originally posted by daner:
Well I can't speak for you, because obviously you must out-play the hell outta everyone in a blue mirror, but even when you match pros together something as simple as who goes first, what each person draws, etc etc ...yes that can determine the outcome of a mirror match.

I'm assuming you never make play mistakes or you get 100% of your tough choices right, because obviously after your statements you are of the highest pro tour quality players. You can win games mulling to 5 with 4 lands and a get out of jail free card because you are that damn good, aren't you?

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going first, order of cards you draw, mulligans....They do greatly affect game outcomes. But that is every format. Even a format of nothing but Grizzly Bears and Giant Growths.

And though they affect games, I think almost every player would agree that a player's ability offers a much greater advantage than any of those factors. Going first, order of cards you draw, and mulligans can change every game, but a player's ability is more constant.

i don't see why you are so stupid to believe to assume what you are assuming. I never mentioned that I mull to 2 and win games b/c of skill.

Banning Jace TMS will not take going first/mulligans/order of cards you draw away from affecting a game. I've seen enough players resolve Jace TMS and still lose. Jace TMS isn't the biggest determinant of blue mirrors. It's a big card, but like you said there are other big factors also.

Can you make blue mirrors start only when both players find a 7 card hand they want to keep? Because if you want to ban Jace TMS solely b/c of how lopsided he makes blue-blue mirrors, you might as well do everything you can to make everthing equal? There will always be variance, but there are reasons why the same players regularly succeed at high-levels. It's for that reason that I believe the main variance in blue-blue mirrors is skill and not going 1st/mulligans/order of cards you draw.

Knight of the Reliquary also skews zoo-zoo matchups.

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Originally posted by choco man:
The main variance in blue mirrors is skill.

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That is a great statement, though not relevant at all. In blue mirrors Jace is like a test of endurance where the life total threshold is set to one. If everyone adds a card to their decks that wins them the game at the start of their next main phase that adds variance.

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Originally posted by coasterdude84:
Turn 2 infinite mana. Certainly nothing wrong there...

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A two card combo that gives you infinite mana isn't threatening at all, especially since you still need to add a 3rd card to actually win.

Compare that to the two card combo of Nomad's En-Kor and Cephalid Illusionist that wins the same turn... and that isn't even powerful enough to be close to ban worthy.

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i don't see why you are so stupid to believe to assume what you are assuming.

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Land Tax
Gush
Worldgorger Dragon

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Originally posted by MAB_Rapper:
I've pretty much heard that either Grove of the Burnwillows or Punishing Fire will be banned. Most likely Grove.

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I'd bet on Punishing Fire. Grove is fine.

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Originally posted by MAB_Rapper:
I've pretty much heard that either Grove of the Burnwillows or Punishing Fire will be banned. Most likely Grove.

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When it comes to Magic, I tend to listen what this guy has to say.
Why those choices?

~MM

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MOTL NCAA Bracket Challenge winner!

CM Punk "OMG Kevin Nash WTF, thought he was dead, LOL"

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Originally posted by fluffycow:
Nothing is getting banned in standard

Nothing is going to happen in modern

Nothing is getting banned in Legacy

No one cares about Vintage

Extended is not a format

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hopefully your right

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Originally posted by MAB_Rapper:
I've pretty much heard that either Grove of the Burnwillows or Punishing Fire will be banned. Most likely Grove.

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Originally posted by daner:
Well I can't speak for you, because obviously you must out-play the hell outta everyone in a blue mirror, but even when you match pros together something as simple as who goes first, what each person draws, etc etc ...yes that can determine the outcome of a mirror match.

I'm assuming you never make play mistakes or you get 100% of your tough choices right, because obviously after your statements you are of the highest pro tour quality players. You can win games mulling to 5 with 4 lands and a get out of jail free card because you are that damn good, aren't you?

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yes, I am...
hehe, easy Daner...

All I'm saying is that we can't deny for example that UW Stoneforge mirrors are heavily favored toward who plays first. Same with Wolf Run Ramp Mirrors, Affinity Mirrors, etc.

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Originally posted by MagicPatty:
yes, I am...
hehe, easy Daner...

All I'm saying is that we can't deny for example that UW Stoneforge mirrors are heavily favored toward who plays first. Same with Wolf Run Ramp Mirrors, Affinity Mirrors, etc.

When neither player makes a mistake, then yes, the cards and who goes first matters. Now don't jump to the "MagicPatty thinks he's the best player on here" defense. I make more mistakes than most players, and probably lose several games that better players would win. I'm not claiming to be in the upper tier of player when it comes to play skill and in game decisions. That said, we can probably all agree that assuming both players are close in skill, the draw matters. We can probably also admit that in this day in age of reading every article and taking our sideboarding cheat sheets made by Chapin and Conley Woods, the average player has a reasonable grasp on how to appropriately navigate his deck to a win.

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I have been on the train that Grove will get banned. But think about it more. A recurring burn spell or the engine that makes it possible. If you ban the engine, the situational burn spell is still there. Someone just needs to find another life gain engine. If you ban the recurring burn spell, you get a useless land. I would expect Punishing Fire to be banned.

Legacy, I don't foresee anything being banned.
It is pretty diverse, except for the heavy blue decks. Snapcaster maybe on the watch list.

opinion- not speculation
If they really want to get rid of the blue decks, unban Black Vise . Control will have to play faster cards.

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Originally posted by rmac:
I have been on the train that Grove will get banned. But think about it more. A recurring burn spell or the engine that makes it possible. If you ban the engine, the situational burn spell is still there. Someone just needs to find another life gain engine. If you ban the recurring burn spell, you get a useless land. I would expect Punishing Fire to be banned.

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The reason that Grove would be banned over Fire is Kavu Predator could still abuse the life gain aspect with Fiery Justice, among other things.

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(My Nationals)

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Originally posted by daner:
I wasn't taking to you, I was taking to the idiot who claimed the variance is skill in a blue mirror above all else. I've seen people that could be classified as "dumb-as-a-box-of-insert whatever" play Jace TMS and smash someone. It DOES come down to who goes first, what you draw, etc etc a lot more than just skill. Even pros make mistakes, but more often than not it's how your cards fall when you have an equally powered deck and equal foes. Sometimes it can even be tilted in a weaker players favor, this is why I will argue against skill being the main variant.

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If you're going to argue based on anecdotal evidence, I'm going to call you an idiot as well. I'll point out that I've seen bad players resolve Jace TMS and also lose.

I'm not going to dispute that "dumb-as-a-box" players can win any given game, because they can. Even the Buffalo Bills beat the New England Patriots this season. But ultimately, it DOES come down to playing well to consistently win games. It's why the same players consistently do well in competitive magic.

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Originally posted by choco man:
If you're going to argue based on anecdotal evidence, I'm going to call you an idiot as well. I'll point out that I've seen bad players resolve Jace TMS and also lose.

I'm not going to dispute that "dumb-as-a-box" players can win any given game, because they can. Even the Buffalo Bills beat the New England Patriots this season. But ultimately, it DOES come down to playing well to consistently win games. It's why the same players consistently do well in competitive magic.

I forgot which GP/PT it was, but they added up the win percentages for going first/second and it was pretty much 50/50.

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Originally posted by daner:
I've seen good players punt after resolving Jace, TMS too. I've seen a lot of people just get bashed too, good and bad, because their draws were terrible not because they played poorly. To simply say good play is the mian variance in all Magic is silly. Yes, the cream does rise to the top because they play well but at PT's it's not like they don't play other pros. If the popular vote said that LSV is the best magic player(just throwing out a name) by your standards he'd NEVER lose. Because like you said the main varience is how well you play. If he's the best then he's plays the best...so he should never lose? Right? Wrong. This is why I will still argue against you. While play is a major variance I believe it's one of many that determines the outcome of a game, and in a lot of cases the main variance when two equal parties are playing(or like I said even to help a lesser foe beat another) it really comes down to how the cards fall. Do you not remember the $40k Lightning Helix heard round the world?

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Oh come on, the called shot Cruel Ultimatum was better.

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