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Author Topic:   M13 Spoilers
hilikuS
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posted June 29, 2012 06:20 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for hilikuS Click Here to Email hilikuS Send a private message to hilikuS Click to send hilikuS an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View hilikuS's Trade Auction or SaleView hilikuS's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by MeddlingMage:
Battle of Wits and Gilded Lotus are back!

~MM


Hurray for 250 card deck with a ton of shuffle effects! Yay for that...

Not a fan of BoW, but gimme about 50 Gilded Lotus.

 
gcowhsu
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posted June 29, 2012 09:34 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for gcowhsu Click Here to Email gcowhsu Click to send gcowhsu an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View gcowhsu's Trade Auction or SaleView gcowhsu's Trade Auction or Sale
They have not reprinted 1 modern staple yet. These are all EDH cards

Gilded lotus
Akroma's Memorial
Mutilate
Serra Avatar

Maybe
Serra Avenger, but that doesn't see play at all anymore
Vampire nighthawk
Tormod's Crypt
Rancor

But it's not like those 3 uncommons were expensive to begin with and both Nighthawk and Rancor have lost play value as well and crypt is a sideboard card.

 
implode
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posted June 29, 2012 11:13 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for implode Click Here to Email implode Send a private message to implode Click to send implode an Instant MessageVisit implode's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View implode's Have/Want ListView implode's Have/Want List
Sorry to be off topic, but trade/value thread is being ignored...anyone know a good place to order Japanese or Korean boxes...was looking to buy a half case of 2013.
 
WeedIan
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posted June 30, 2012 04:22 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for WeedIan Click Here to Email WeedIan Send a private message to WeedIan Click to send WeedIan an Instant MessageVisit WeedIan's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View WeedIan's Have/Want ListView WeedIan's Have/Want List
Wow! Rewind!

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thror
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posted June 30, 2012 04:51 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for thror Send a private message to thror Click to send thror an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View thror's Trade Auction or SaleView thror's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by WeedIan:
Wow! Rewind!


not the first time this has happened. without other good instants, it wont really do much.

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[16:17] <@BrassMan> what do you need new tech for?
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caquaa
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posted June 30, 2012 04:56 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for caquaa Click Here to Email caquaa Send a private message to caquaa Click to send caquaa an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View caquaa's Trade Auction or SaleView caquaa's Trade Auction or Sale
Was really hoping noble hierarch would make it into the set. Seems like a missed opportunity to reprint it really. Beyond that, there might be an extra card on the spoiler since there appears to be 5 cards listed between 175 and 180 on the spoiler.
 
Myy
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posted June 30, 2012 05:17 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Myy Click Here to Email Myy Send a private message to Myy Click to send Myy an Instant MessageVisit Myy's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Myy's Have/Want ListView Myy's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by caquaa:
Was really hoping noble hierarch would make it into the set. Seems like a missed opportunity to reprint it really. Beyond that, there might be an extra card on the spoiler since there appears to be 5 cards listed between 175 and 180 on the spoiler.

I was really hoping for a new Elf lord =(

 
choco man
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posted June 30, 2012 06:44 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for choco man Click Here to Email choco man Send a private message to choco man Click to send choco man an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View choco man's Have/Want ListView choco man's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by thror:
not the first time this has happened. without other good instants, it wont really do much.


Yeah, Rewind then EoT Teferi!

 
hilikuS
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posted July 02, 2012 06:17 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for hilikuS Click Here to Email hilikuS Send a private message to hilikuS Click to send hilikuS an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View hilikuS's Trade Auction or SaleView hilikuS's Trade Auction or Sale
Is Stone Rain too powerful for standard or something? Craterize is stupid...
 
AEther Storm
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posted July 02, 2012 07:04 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for AEther Storm Click Here to Email AEther Storm Send a private message to AEther Storm Click to send AEther Storm an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View AEther Storm's Have/Want ListView AEther Storm's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by hilikuS:
Is Stone Rain too powerful for standard or something? Craterize is stupid...

They banned printing it after they received word that Bernieb almost has more than 51% of all printed versions and they don't want to lose the rights on it.

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yakusoku
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posted July 02, 2012 09:28 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for yakusoku Click Here to Email yakusoku Send a private message to yakusoku Click to send yakusoku an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by hilikuS:
Is Stone Rain too powerful for standard or something? Craterize is stupid...

Sort of.

This quote is very, very old but gives lots of insight:

quote:
Randy Buehler:

I don’t mind playing with land destruction spells...

Even then, however, I felt a little bit guilty deep down inside because I could tell that my opponent wasn’t having any fun sitting there...

In my current role of lead developer for Magic, I’m no longer primarily concerned with who wins, but rather with making sure the whole experience of playing Magic is fun. The guy who wins usually does have more fun than the guy who loses a Magic duel, but it’s not always completely lopsided. When I lose because I’m attacked with an enormous dragon, I usually can’t help but smile. Dragons are cool and fun, even when my opponent has them. Land destruction, on the other hand, is rarely either cool or fun...

This is why, as long as I’m on watch here, you won’t see us printing land destruction cards at particularly aggressive casting costs. We don’t want a dedicated land destruction deck to become a regular feature of tournament play...

blowing up every single land the opponent plays as soon as he plays it just isn’t fun. Magic should be more interactive than those decks allow it to be.


Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge are the two most recently printed playable LD cards and these were primarily for utility, taking out manlands, rather than denying your opponent mana. 4-cost is where WotC has deemed reasonable for LD. A big problem is that green continues to get one-mana guys and they print lots of R/G lands, so while Stone Rain costs 3, it's very easily a turn 2 land destruction spell. So, on the play, you can keep your opponent off two lands for most of the game.

Proponents of LD will decry this action and claim that this is the fault of the meta and players can act appropriately and play aggro decks with very low curves, so now we have hyper aggro and LD as two formidable decks in the environment and control players are left with two daunting matchups. So, WotC has just killed control. So, let's ramp up control and give them back early, powerful counterspells like Force Spike, Counterspell, and Remand.

Very quickly, it's an arms race where the end is something like Legacy. Standard is meant as the most popular, and most accessible format, especially for newer players. You might not do particularly well with a homebrew Vampires, Humans, or Zombies deck in Standard, but you'll still likely get to cast your creatures and the game will be much closer than if you're sporting an Angel deck and get rocked by Ponza.

You know how frustrating it is when you fail to draw any more lands or you're forced to mulligan down to ridiculously small opening hands to get more than one land? This sentiment is echoed in LD, where players don't lose to another player killing them, they lose to an opponent just preventing them from doing anything. There was a survey done some time ago where WotC asked players their least favorite strategies to play against and counter-heavy decks (8+ counterspells) and LD were the top offenders.

Players have a much more enjoyable experience if they feel they had a chance to cast and resolve their spells, even if it gets stopped. I play a creature and you Doom Blade it. I Incinerate your creature. I play another creature and you Dismember that one. You play a creature and I can't stop it. You win. I'm not happy with the loss, but I got to play two creatures and a removal spell, and your draw was just slightly better.

This is what LD feels like to those same players:

Opponent: kill your land, attack
Victim: I can't do anything
Opponent: kill your land, attack
Victim: I still can't do anything
Opponent: kill your land, attack
Victim: I could do SO much if I had a third land! I'll discard my four-drop.
Opponent: Kill you? GG?
Victim: Sure, GG... I guess.

Your opponent got to do lots of stuff, and you sat there doing nothing but playing land and discarding when your hand gets too full. There's very little interaction there, on par with playing a basketball game with someone who is a foot taller than you and manages to block your every shot, steal the ball, and outscore you by double digits. Playing HORSE is far preferrable to watching someone do circles around you and play their game while you can't make a point, even if HORSE is a dumbed-down version of 1 v. 1 basketball.

Similarly, seeing your opponent counter four straight spells is frustrating for far more players than the players who get joy out of spending four turns just drawing cards and countering spells.

So, WotC has nerfed both LD and counterspells so that 3+ is seen as an appropriate cost for a hard counter(see Cancel/Rewind), 2 for a weak counter (see Essence Scatter/Negate in M13) while 4 is okay for LD (Demolish and Craterize and Bramblecrush).

This makes counter-go and true LD decks unplayable at the top levels, but still present as a fringe strategy. They're okay with this status. Not coincidentally, by making Standard focus more on creatures and combat, they've gotten more people happy than the smaller population who dislikes the nerfs to their favorite strategies.

 
gcowhsu
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posted July 02, 2012 09:49 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for gcowhsu Click Here to Email gcowhsu Click to send gcowhsu an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View gcowhsu's Trade Auction or SaleView gcowhsu's Trade Auction or Sale
full 249 spoiled 0 modern or legacy staples.

Closest
Serra Avenger.

 
bstrom213
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posted July 02, 2012 10:43 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for bstrom213 Click Here to Email bstrom213 Click to send bstrom213 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
No sweeper in white (or any other color for that matter)? Returning of the same Mx duals? Zero reprint of any constructed format playables? Less than exciting new cards outside of edh? Unless they have a longer term plan for return of ravnica, I would have to call this an epic fail. But at least we know that they are trying hard to keep edh cost down
 
TimeBeing
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posted July 02, 2012 10:58 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for TimeBeing Click Here to Email TimeBeing Send a private message to TimeBeing Click to send TimeBeing an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by bstrom213:
No sweeper in white (or any other color for that matter)? Returning of the same Mx duals? Zero reprint of any constructed format playables? Less than exciting new cards outside of edh? Unless they have a longer term plan for return of ravnica, I would have to call this an epic fail. But at least we know that they are trying hard to keep edh cost down

Planar Cleansing?

 
thror
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posted July 02, 2012 12:04 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for thror Send a private message to thror Click to send thror an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View thror's Trade Auction or SaleView thror's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by bstrom213:
No sweeper in white (or any other color for that matter)? Returning of the same Mx duals? Zero reprint of any constructed format playables? Less than exciting new cards outside of edh? Unless they have a longer term plan for return of ravnica, I would have to call this an epic fail. But at least we know that they are trying hard to keep edh cost down

Planar Cleansing and Mutilate arent sweepers?

M10 dual lands arent constructed playable? Oblivion Ring, Duress and Rancor arent? Sublime Archangel, Thragtusk and Thundermaw Hellkite arent exciting new cards for constructed? Are we looking at the same core set?????

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"He fights you not because you have wronged him, but because you are there."

[16:17] <@BrassMan> what do you need new tech for?
[16:18] <@BrassMan> gush is unrestricted

[19:01] <nderEvo> you can delete yourself


[Edited 1 times, lastly by thror on July 02, 2012]

 
WeedIan
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posted July 02, 2012 12:35 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for WeedIan Click Here to Email WeedIan Send a private message to WeedIan Click to send WeedIan an Instant MessageVisit WeedIan's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View WeedIan's Have/Want ListView WeedIan's Have/Want List
All and all M13 is underwhelming.

As a whole its probably not bad but it seems underwhelming.

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bstrom213
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posted July 02, 2012 12:50 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for bstrom213 Click Here to Email bstrom213 Send a private message to bstrom213 Click to send bstrom213 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by thror:
Planar Cleansing and Mutilate arent sweepers?

M10 dual lands arent constructed playable? Oblivion Ring, Duress and Rancor arent? Sublime Archangel, Thragtusk and Thundermaw Hellkite arent exciting new cards for constructed? Are we looking at the same core set?????


If you don't understand what I am saying, then I can't talk to you

 
Lord Crovax
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posted July 02, 2012 02:00 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Lord Crovax Click Here to Email Lord Crovax Send a private message to Lord Crovax Click to send Lord Crovax an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by bstrom213:
If you don't understand what I am saying, then I can't talk to you

Your making no sense, you say no constructed playables, yet I see stuff for standard and legacy at the very least, and most of the standard stuff is probably good enough for Modern to, and that's not even getting into reprints.

You either have not looked at the set list or you have your expectations way to high, either way sucks to be you, rest of us will enjoy what WoTC printed and have fun.

Oh, and none of this even takes into account EDH, which has even more new toys or reprints of old ones for newer players.

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revenger
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posted July 02, 2012 03:31 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for revenger Click Here to Email revenger Click to send revenger an Instant MessageVisit revenger's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View revenger's Have/Want ListView revenger's Have/Want List
There is some choice cards in the set that are awesome and cool and nice to see return. Gilded Lotus, Mutilate to name a couple.

But they had to bring back the duds as well. Wit's End? Battle of Wits? Silklash Spider? I mean they might be good or wehatever in sealed/limited but as far as constructed, ack. Ugh.

~Revenger

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thror
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posted July 02, 2012 03:45 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for thror Send a private message to thror Click to send thror an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View thror's Trade Auction or SaleView thror's Trade Auction or Sale
Apparently bstrom213 thinks that a core set without shocklands, dark confidant, counterspell, lightning bolt, and wrath of god isnt good enough.

M13, while not 'omg super awesome', does EXACTLY what a core set should do. PROVIDE A FOUNDATION for the standard format. 5 Good dual lands. Cards for aggro and control. Cards for Timmy, Johnny, and Spike.

When the current core set just becomes a rehash of all the greatest hits, we'll know wotc is in trouble. This is not that core set.

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[16:17] <@BrassMan> what do you need new tech for?
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bstrom213
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posted July 02, 2012 04:11 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for bstrom213 Click Here to Email bstrom213 Send a private message to bstrom213 Click to send bstrom213 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I guess I just expected more since they printed grim lavamancer in M12 and nantuko shade in M11. Now that they said they will reprint to help launch modern and make it more accessible, I expected at least a dark confidant or a vendilion clique reprint (even if mythic), but we just got serra avenger and some edh stuff that weren't even that expensive.

I do however have to give them credit for the non crappy dragon though.

 
CubFan81
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posted July 02, 2012 04:17 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for CubFan81 Click Here to Email CubFan81 Send a private message to CubFan81 Click to send CubFan81 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View CubFan81's Have/Want ListView CubFan81's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by bstrom213:
If you don't understand what I am saying, then I can't talk to you

I don't think anyone understands what you are saying. You said:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bstrom213:
No sweeper in white (or any other color for that matter)?

To which Thror correctly points out that Planar Cleansing is in the set and is a white sweeper. Mutilate aand Magmaquake are sweepers that fit in style with their respective colors.

Returning of the same Mx duals?

What were you expecting? The Shocklands were almost assuredly out. We can complain all we want about WoTC focusing on getting new players instead of making Magic the way we want but that's their strategy. They've said time and time again that the new players didn't like the Painlands and I doubt we'd see Shocklands in a core set before they tried returning the Painlands first. Besides, if they slow roll the Shocklands in Return to Ravnica, the M10 style lands work perfectly well along side them. Sacred Foundry followed by Glacial Fortress sounds pretty sweet.

Zero reprint of any constructed format playables?

To which again, he listed a number of them.

Less than exciting new cards outside of edh?

Again, he listed three pretty interesting rares and even left out the new Ajani. What more were you expecting? New Titans?

I'm not quite sure what you want out of a core set but after Baneslayer Angel and two years of Titans this is a pretty good reset.

 
Zeckk
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posted July 02, 2012 04:43 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Zeckk Click Here to Email Zeckk Send a private message to Zeckk Click to send Zeckk an Instant MessageVisit Zeckk's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Zeckk's Have/Want ListView Zeckk's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by bstrom213:
I guess I just expected more since they printed grim lavamancer in M12 and nantuko shade in M11. Now that they said they will reprint to help launch modern and make it more accessible, I expected at least a dark confidant or a vendilion clique reprint (even if mythic), but we just got serra avenger and some edh stuff that weren't even that expensive.

I do however have to give them credit for the non crappy dragon though.


Listing nantuko shade as an exciting card diminishes your credibility. M13 is fine as a set. Nothing amazing, but there's definitely decent additions to standard and legacy in the set.

 
Lord Crovax
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posted July 02, 2012 04:50 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Lord Crovax Click Here to Email Lord Crovax Send a private message to Lord Crovax Click to send Lord Crovax an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zeckk:
Listing nantuko shade as an exciting card diminishes your credibility. M13 is fine as a set. Nothing amazing, but there's definitely decent additions to standard and legacy in the set.

Shade was exciting, just wasn't playable any longer due to the change in creature power since it's first run.

Think the problem some have now, is realizing that, and also realizing most reprints outside of the super expensive ones, will simply be lackluster.

I think M13 did it's job just fine, it is defiantly better then M12 which basically had Lavamancer and Titans and not much else worth while.

While probably being below M11, and defiantly is below M10, which still has reigns on being the best of the M series.

Hope M14 has something amazing being an Anniversary set.

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AGO
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posted July 02, 2012 06:51 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for AGO Click Here to Email AGO Send a private message to AGO Click to send AGO an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View AGO's Trade Auction or SaleView AGO's Trade Auction or Sale
I am just glad they didn't reprint the damn titans again. This core set is very average and on par with what a core set should be.
 

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