edit: volcanan, as always contributing intelligent things.

I know i spelled your username wrong, i'm just too darn lazy to edit twice.

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Originally posted by Volcanon:
So I drafted a Gruul deck that actually works. Amazing.

The best part is bloodrushing bramblecrush, then using the instante return dude from graveyard and then bloodrushing him again.

Also Scorching 5/1 is pretty boss against decks that don't have blockers.

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I never 3-0 with gruul. Usually 2-1. Last night I only lost to gruul which was pretty upsetting. 2 tracers, 3 madcap skills, 2 forced adaptation do so much damage. The other Guy got 2 guildmages which I think pushed him over the top

From a competitive standpoint, an opponent countering everything is very similar to an opponent removing everything.

1. Except counters stop triggers.
2. OG counterspell stops any type of spell not just the creature type.
3. Counters don't stop something already in play.

EDH is an example of casual magic that has gone beyond the simple mentality that counters ruin everything. Type 4 is another. Without counters, type 4 would suck. If counterspell hurts one type of casual, doesn't mean it hurts the entire casual scene.

Either way, unless a casual group is bent on playing only new cards Counterspell is already there.

R&D already has stopped printing cheap, instant speed card draw. You can no longer play a 1-for-1 draw-go style game and then refill your hand EOT. That style was truly agonizing to play against, but without those I'd imagine it'll have a tough time keeping up nowadays with cards like Unburial Rites and Lingering Souls and Liliana of the Veil.

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Originally posted by choco man:
I wouldn't put it past R&D to bring back Counterspell. It's not Mana Drain. They won't hold on to the "casual" excuse forever.

From a competitive standpoint, an opponent countering everything is very similar to an opponent removing everything.

1. Except counters stop triggers.
2. OG counterspell stops any type of spell not just the creature type.
3. Counters don't stop something already in play.

EDH is an example of casual magic that has gone beyond the simple mentality that counters ruin everything. Type 4 is another. Without counters, type 4 would suck. If counterspell hurts one type of casual, doesn't mean it hurts the entire casual scene.

Either way, unless a casual group is bent on playing only new cards Counterspell is already there.

R&D already has stopped printing cheap, instant speed card draw. You can no longer play a 1-for-1 draw-go style game and then refill your hand EOT. That style was truly agonizing to play against, but without those I'd imagine it'll have a tough time keeping up nowadays with cards like Unburial Rites and Lingering Souls and Liliana of the Veil.

OG draw go even had a colorless seal of Wrath of God (nev disk).

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Originally posted by Volcanon:
Draw-go should never be a valid deck.

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Originally posted by Volcanon:
Counterspell sucks to play against and they've been printing more instant speed draw. It's also kind of a huge tempo gain to counter a 5 mana unburial rites with a 2 mana spell. Mana leak is powerful enough. Counterspell is worse. Draw-go should never be a valid deck.

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Draw-go shouldn't be viable. haha That's scrub talk.

What instant speed card draw? Sphinx's, Think Twice? Those are decent but not overwhelming. All along, it was never the counterspells part of Draw-Go that was the most powerful. It was the DRAW part. As mentioned, without those type of draw spells, what's so bad about Counterspell?

It sucks even more to get a 5cc Unburial get exiled with 3cc Dissipate....so that means no Dissipate either? All last year, I out tempo'd players by Vapor Snag, Snapcaster Mage + Vapor Snag. That sucked too, but was beatable. It just wasn't nearly as beatable (earlier in the season) when the standard cardpool was smaller.

For that matter, when/if they bring back Counterspell, who knows what the card pool will be? Creatures are way bigger since Lightning Bolt's first run. Lightning Bolt is great and not oppressive.

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Originally posted by AlmostGrown:
How much does a magic card weigh? I'm asking because I want to pay the correct amount when I use paypal to print out shipping labels.

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**** you all. You got exactly what you goddamned deserved, with the added bonus of making me so mad I pop a boner.

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Originally posted by caquaa:
seems like a poor blanket statement. I've yet to hear any proof why it is bad. It doesn't stop stuff thats already in play, that seems like balance enough for me.

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Draw-go makes people quit magic and WOTC loses money. It's unpleasant to play against and boring to play with. It makes expensive cards worthless. They have to print OP spells just so that when something *does* resolve it actually does something.

Oh, and snapcaster was a mistake, so he's not exactly the best card to compare with.

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Originally posted by JoshSherman:
"I got hosed because I didn't learn the rules on MOTL well enough before conducting trades. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!"

**** you all. You got exactly what you goddamned deserved, with the added bonus of making me so mad I pop a boner.

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Originally posted by Volcanon:
Oh, and snapcaster was a mistake, so he's not exactly the best card to compare with.

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Well, the analogy was actually Vapor Snag. But you missed it. Vapor Snag was also effectively blowing people out last year for 1cc. And unlike Mana Leak, you didn't even need to keep mana up.

Oh, Snapcaster and its power level is an interesting case for Counterspell. He's certainly a better card than Counterspell and hasn't destroyed the game. R&D knew Snapcaster was powerful and meant it to be from day one, it's an Invitational card. It would have been a mistake to make it crappy. So I don't know what "mistake" you're talking about.

If any card from Delver last year was a "mistake," it was Delver of Secrets, duh. I don't think they intended for there to be a 1cc 3/2 flyer in blue.

If you say, "Oh, it's because of Snapcaster they can't print any good cards." Then we can say the same for Counterspell. Who knows what the card pool will be when/if Counterspell is legal for standard again?

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Originally posted by choco man:

Oh, Snapcaster and its power level is an interesting case for Counterspell. He's certainly a better card than Counterspell and hasn't destroyed the game. R&D knew Snapcaster was powerful and meant it to be from day one, it's an Invitational card. It would have been a mistake to make it crappy. So I don't know what "mistake" you're talking about.

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http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/191

"I'll be real with you. We messed up with Snapcaster Mage.

I'm not going to sit here and look you in the eye and tell you that Snapcaster Mage is a fair Magic card. Nor am I going to blame any of my colleagues for the problem: I worked with Tiago Chan to design it, and by the time we realized exactly how powerful it was in concert with the abundance of one-mana cantrips in Standard, the card was already out the door."

I'm not trying to change your opinion of the card, you're entitled to that. I just figured I should point out what (I think) Volc was talking about. Personally, I don't think Snapcaster destroys the game. But there have been metas where I know if I see someone with Snappy, they're going to manhandle me much more than anyone else in the room. And manhandling makes me uncomfortable. With Snapcaster plus Counterspell? I can hear someone putting on their rubber gloves...

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Originally posted by Volcanon:
Draw-go makes people quit magic and WOTC loses money. It's unpleasant to play against and boring to play with. It makes expensive cards worthless. They have to print OP spells just so that when something *does* resolve it actually does something.

Oh, and snapcaster was a mistake, so he's not exactly the best card to compare with.

Dial C for "Context"

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Originally posted by JoshSherman:
"I got hosed because I didn't learn the rules on MOTL well enough before conducting trades. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!"

**** you all. You got exactly what you goddamned deserved, with the added bonus of making me so mad I pop a boner.

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I'd also like the Context of this

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Originally posted by JoshSherman:
The BTA is my context.

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Originally posted by JoshSherman:
ALL OF THEM. I thought that was clear.

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LOL i guess that makes sense, a large percentage was like that

"I didn't send with tracking but it must of arrived"

"Oh i have to make sure it gets there?"

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Originally posted by Vegas10:
Volc has somke good points here, the magic scene is more popular than ever (look at sales, tourney sizes, how many companies run tournies, most local stores tournouts are up) because they don't have decks that are as un-fun to play against as counter everything decks or worse combo decks where you watch your opponent beat you for 10 min while you sit there doing nothing, they are less likley to bring back stuff like that while this is working so well right now, after all sales for lats few sets have been all time highs.

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Originally posted by caquaa:
I fail to see how the BTE decks are any different. I had a hand w/ multiple azorius charms, izzet staticaster, and various other cards.... only problem was that I had lost the die roll and my lands were m10 duals. By time I could cast a charm he was still attacking me for lethal after the creature was gone. If you expect to be able to cast the cards in your deck, you need to play for your opponents strategies as well. If your opponent is playing counter magic, you just have to make sure you have individual cards in your deck that can dominate the game on their own. if you expect your opponent to allow you to do anything you want and complain if they don't, I suggest finding a different game to play. Counterspell is fine, people just whine too much when they don't get what they want.

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This, so much of this...

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Originally posted by caquaa:
I fail to see how the BTE decks are any different. I had a hand w/ multiple azorius charms, izzet staticaster, and various other cards.... only problem was that I had lost the die roll and my lands were m10 duals. By time I could cast a charm he was still attacking me for lethal after the creature was gone. If you expect to be able to cast the cards in your deck, you need to play for your opponents strategies as well. If your opponent is playing counter magic, you just have to make sure you have individual cards in your deck that can dominate the game on their own. if you expect your opponent to allow you to do anything you want and complain if they don't, I suggest finding a different game to play. Counterspell is fine, people just whine too much when they don't get what they want.

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Counterspell is too strong. It's been established as too strong. WOTC doesn't want to push the envelope on counters, like it's willing to do with creatures and stuff like burn. So we got Bolt back, but we are unlikely to get counterspell back. Cancel is what a basic hard counter should cost.

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Originally posted by hilikuS:
I think what we really need is some Slagstorm in standard, or something. No not rolling temblor. I think Slagstorm and or Day of Judgment was what kept the little fast dudes at bey.

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