quote:

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Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by nderdog:
That's nice that you have that ability, as do I. I still find it unreasonable to expect that out of everyone who plays. Checking 3 times in 3 days, sure not too unreasonable. Unfortunately, the games do not last just 3 days. I find it very difficult to justify asking 17 people to commit to being available every single day for about a month for something that is entertainment. It just seems like a pretty bad idea to me. Maybe you shouldn't be taking this game that seriously.

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I mean honestly--if people entered into this game with that understanding, we'd probably care a lot less about people missing a day here and there because we wouldn't have frequent lulls when nobody posts. Instead we have folks who post once a round or less, and even then it's two lines of text that might as well have not been posted in the first place. We set the bar too low and we make it okay for players to chronically be empty seats at the table. Setting some sort of measurable expectation will give players something to shoot for, even if they never hit it, at the very least making the effort will be good for the game.[/QUOTE]

This game is for fun. It shouldn't feel like an obligation, and people shouldn't feel that because someone else wants everyone to play a certain way, that they have to accede to that person's wishes. Yes, for the most part everyone agrees that silent people hurt the game. That doesn't mean that everyone has to be overly noisy and posting constantly. There's ample middle ground for the compulsive posters and the occasional posters to peacefully co-exist. That includes people who don't have the time or desire to read and post every single day.

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quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
This game is for fun. It shouldn't feel like an obligation, and people shouldn't feel that because someone else wants everyone to play a certain way, that they have to accede to that person's wishes. Yes, for the most part everyone agrees that silent people hurt the game. That doesn't mean that everyone has to be overly noisy and posting constantly. There's ample middle ground for the compulsive posters and the occasional posters to peacefully co-exist. That includes people who don't have the time or desire to read and post every single day.

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If "everyone agrees" that silent players hurt the game, then players calling for a modicum of participation is neither an act of tyranny nor a push toward extreme "overly noisy" posting.

Anyway, I see no need to argue. You're setting a bar just like I am, you are simply setting a lower bar. Besides it's not like any bar you or I set matters a whit. Nobody is going to be excluded for "not posting as much as Chuck says" any more than I am going to be excluded for "posting way more than nder thinks you should".

Your opinion is noted, I disagree.

quote:

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Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
Anyway, I see no need to argue. You're setting a bar just like I am, you are simply setting a lower bar. Besides it's not like any bar you or I set matters a whit. Nobody is going to be excluded for "not posting as much as Chuck says" any more than I am going to be excluded for "posting way more than nder thinks you should".

Your opinion is noted, I disagree.

---

Thank you for completely missing the point. I have no problem with people posting a million times a day. I have a real problem with someone seriously expecting everyone who wants to play a fun game to be expected to read the thread at least twice a day and post at least once a day, regardless. All I've noted since you made that post was point out why I think it was a completely ridiculous statement. Take it however you want, but I find it utterly offensive that you think it's totally reasonable to expect everyone to either do that, or be considered "too busy to play WW."

Anyway, I'm not up for another "Thanos shouldn't be allowed to play anymore" disagreement, so I'm done trying to talk sense into you.

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This is why the New Mafia games are seeming to be quite enjoyable.

Dont get me wrong I quite enjoyed this game, and it seems that the more serious players I upset the better I feel, cuz you are taking the fun out of this game.

I think those who missed votes should be passed over this next game. you know the dates for voting and there really is no excuse...(unless emergencies, of course)

quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
Anyway, I'm not up for another "Thanos shouldn't be allowed to play anymore" disagreement, so I'm done trying to talk sense into you.

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Seriously, I would never deign to say I was trying to "talk some sense into you". What gall. We can discuss this when you are prepared to stop talking to me like I am an inferior being. You seem to have serious problems with me, which is fine--but they are YOUR problems, not mine.

quote:

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Originally posted by fwybwed:

Dont get me wrong I quite enjoyed this game, and it seems that the more serious players I upset the better I feel, cuz you are taking the fun out of this game.

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So, you enjoy upsetting other players? THAT makes you "feel better". That's absurd. If the only reason you want to play is to upset people, then you REALLY shouldn't be playing at all.

What takes the fun out of the game is people who are hypocrites. People who totally trash another player's ideas, just because of the player who's suggesting it, and then when another player suggests a similar, yet TOTALLY IDIOTIC idea, they jump all over it and agree that it's the BEST idea ever.

I can most certainly understand the frustration of playing this game while 1/2 of the players aren't saying a damn word. How many times do people have to be told that silence hurts ONLY the cits before they understand it? How many games do the cits have to lose because "it's my playing style"

Revenger, Almaster and BOT/Woolly JUST showed us how bad the game can get, when you get rid of the people that actually post. They also showed what happens when you get rid of the "record keeper". If we had had PD's records, we might have actually gotten a wolf. After he showed me the data he had tabulated on the game, I saw stuff that would have been GREAT to have had to use during the game. They knew what they were doing when they got rid of him first, and they followed it up when Bugger started trying to step in PD's shoes by lynching him as well.

If you're not going to actually play, I don't understand why you bother to sign up.

Thanks,
Jazaray

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I like it when serious players get upset at been accused or pointed out and they start putting you down and calling you out... They get upset and frustrated at a GAME! lol Whooopie

I find it funny too, when folks vote for themselves, or say things like fine vote for me then, or stuff your idea is just stupid... I know some even sed Bull$%#^% and get so upset its funny to me..

And how you act right now is funny hahaaa. If you are gettin so mad at me then maybe you are taking this to serious. We are trying to have a good time and yet you come in here like that...

Sheesh sorry then....MAYBE you should take a game off...

quote:

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Originally posted by Jazaray:
So, you enjoy upsetting other players? THAT makes you "feel better". That's absurd. If the only reason you want to play is to upset people, then you REALLY shouldn't be playing at all.

What takes the fun out of the game is people who are hypocrites. People who totally trash another player's ideas, just because of the player who's suggesting it, and then when another player suggests a similar, yet TOTALLY IDIOTIC idea, they jump all over it and agree that it's the BEST idea ever.

I can most certainly understand the frustration of playing this game while 1/2 of the players aren't saying a damn word. How many times do people have to be told that silence hurts ONLY the cits before they understand it? How many games do the cits have to lose because "it's my playing style"

Revenger, Almaster and BOT/Woolly JUST showed us how bad the game can get, when you get rid of the people that actually post. They also showed what happens when you get rid of the "record keeper". If we had had PD's records, we might have actually gotten a wolf. After he showed me the data he had tabulated on the game, I saw stuff that would have been GREAT to have had to use during the game. They knew what they were doing when they got rid of him first, and they followed it up when Bugger started trying to step in PD's shoes by lynching him as well.

If you're not going to actually play, I don't understand why you bother to sign up.

Thanks,
Jazaray

---

We got rid of the record keeper to slow the game to a crawl and to silence. What I do not understand is why PD record charts are so important to the game? I depended on him on the game when he was wolf, and guess what? I lost. True we got rid of the people who chat and post alot, but the end result was what we wanted. Silence and a victory.

Purposedly(sp) upsetting other players is not a correct choice in playing imo. We play for fun, entertainment and enjoyment. If your sole purpose to play is to upset others, perhaps this game is not for you.

If the player is so dependant on PD's records and charts, and he has already proven he can manipulate the game in the aspects of the game, then perhaps there is an unbalancing of the game with that. I am very discourged in playing knowing full well, players like PD and Liq can decipher my every word to nail me down to exactly what I am, be it a cit or not. I am not saying it is cheating. I am not saying it's fair or not. But what is the fun in the game when you (or I) know full well how the game is going to end up? I am seriously thinking twice now on this game particpation now. Yes I know I cannot get better by not playing, but imo, I cannot get better with players knowing my every word and post, or my playstyle, and not enlightening me on my good and bad playing methods.

Just my ramblings and thoughts.

~Revenger

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quote:

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Originally posted by fwybwed:
Sry let me rephrase that...

I like it when serious players get upset at been accused or pointed out and they start putting you down and calling you out... They get upset and frustrated at a GAME! lol Whooopie

I find it funny too, when folks vote for themselves, or say things like fine vote for me then, or stuff your idea is just stupid... I know some even sed Bull$%#^% and get so upset its funny to me..

And how you act right now is funny hahaaa. If you are gettin so mad at me then maybe you are taking this to serious. We are trying to have a good time and yet you come in here like that...

Sheesh sorry then....MAYBE you should take a game off...

just kiddin...

---

quote:

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Originally posted by revenger:

If the player is so dependant on PD's records and charts, and he has already proven he can manipulate the game in the aspects of the game, then perhaps there is an unbalancing of the game with that. I am very discourged in playing knowing full well, players like PD and Liq can decipher my every word to nail me down to exactly what I am, be it a cit or not. I am not saying it is cheating. I am not saying it's fair or not. But what is the fun in the game when you (or I) know full well how the game is going to end up? I am seriously thinking twice now on this game particpation now. Yes I know I cannot get better by not playing, but imo, I cannot get better with players knowing my every word and post, or my playstyle, and not enlightening me on my good and bad playing methods.

Just my ramblings and thoughts.

~Revenger

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And all the information that PD stores away in speadsheets is readily available just by reading the thread. It's just he has the time and interest in organizing it in to a way that he feels is more useful.

quote:

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Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
(4) Place your own vote--don't let someone else tell you who to vote for. Liq's plan in R1 was to deliberately get himself lynched--to bait the wolves to the point where they couldn't pass up such an awesome target. He had to do this because he knew the WW were going to take him out before he got a single scry, so it was his only option to get the wolves to expose themselves. The way he did this was to put forth a stunningly bad plan--probably assuming that would make everyone suspicious/angry. He should have been right to think so, but seven players actually bought into the plan--not surprisingly none of the strong players did. While the staggered vote strategy (SVS) could work, it was missing consensus, and that is exactly what should have made people universally dismiss it. The principle difference between SVS and Consensus was that in consensus the PLAYERS decided who they should vote for, and in SVS, Liq decided.

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To be truthful, I would have pulled this stunt off as a cit, angel, or wolf. I just would have done it far better as a wolf.

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Come on guys dont get it all twisted in your udergarments...

Some people just get tooooo upset playing this game and its funny to me that is all

hahaaaa

I can't believe taking notes in a spiral notebook is "cheating" or "defeating the spirit of the game", so I fail to see why the tracker is any different.

The important question is what does MM think? If he outlaws it I'd abide by his wishes. Actually I'd probably just stop playing--no doubt to the delight of some.

quote:

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Originally posted by fwybwed:
Come on guys dont get it all twisted in your udergarments...

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Sorry if it annoys you.

quote:

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Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by nderdog:
Anyway, I'm not up for another "Thanos shouldn't be allowed to play anymore" disagreement, so I'm done trying to talk sense into you.

---

Seriously, I would never deign to say I was trying to "talk some sense into you". What gall. We can discuss this when you are prepared to stop talking to me like I am an inferior being. You seem to have serious problems with me, which is fine--but they are YOUR problems, not mine.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, I have serious problems with you because you try so fricking hard to enforce your will on everyone else playing the game. It's fine to say "Hey, I think that x is a good way to play." It's a whole other ballgame when others point out why they disagree, and you keep going on and on about how we're wrong. It's not just "I wish people would post more" but "Everyone needs to commit to spending x time playing and they need to do this and that and so and so shouldn't play because I don't like their style." I have absolutely no tolerance for people who can't understand this is supposed to be fun and different people like to play different ways and that is perfectly fine. We all get that you like things a certain way, but you need to realize that other people like things other ways, and that doesn't make them unable to commit to the game.

quote:

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Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
So YES, if you are signing up for WW you are signing up for a longterm obligation that to be adequately met requires you to follow the thread on a daily basis and post once a day (or 3-4 times per round). If your life is so busy you can't manage that, you are making a committment you won't keep, and should probably give it a miss. It's only common sense not to make a commitment you can't keep.

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This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. You treat everyone who doesn't take this as seriously as you as not worthy of playing the game, then claim that they have no common sense.

Anyway, it's clear we'll never see eye to eye about this stuff, so I'll just drop it now.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
Venger, I think you are attributing far too much value to the tracking. It's just tracking. It doesn't give me any answers, but it does help me remember things and spot patterns. I suspected you in R2, and it got a lot stronger in R3 and it had nothing to do with information I tracked. It's always nice to have that though--that certainly made the wolves easier to spot in the late game the way the R1 piles shaped up. But you could have tracked the piles yourself with a paper and pencil. It's not magic.

I can't believe taking notes in a spiral notebook is "cheating" or "defeating the spirit of the game", so I fail to see why the tracker is any different.

The important question is what does MM think? If he outlaws it I'd abide by his wishes. Actually I'd probably just stop playing--no doubt to the delight of some.

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Actually I was thinking I was not attributing enough. I am not an expirenced(sp) player lke y'all, and the charts and graphs I do not thoroughly understand like you and whomever else. My algebra is not up to par or something.

As for patterns, bernek was on our side of the wolfs, then all of a sudden went all out on me. That follows a pattern? Please show me the graph/chart that identifies this.

Tracking piles and all that through pencil and paper I think it tedious and irevalent. These players turn on a dime (I make reference to bernek)

I also think charts and graphs lower the integrity of the game. When people depend on such system, when the system breaks down, the engine breaks down. (hey, us wolves broke the engine last game, it worked.) I think if I understood and had much better faith in your charts and graphs, I might like em better, but until then, no.

PD, don't get me wrong, I might still be feeling the post truamatic(sp) effect of your consensus plan where you lead the sheep(me) to the slaughter.

@PGB Thank you. I do apprecaite the positive and constructed criteria. I do not understand your last sentence though. Feel free to aim me if ya like so I can understand it better.

Once again, my thoughts and ramblings.

~Rev

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quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
Yes, I have serious problems with you because you try so fricking hard to enforce your will on everyone else playing the game...

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I think people who don't follow the thread daily are probably too busy to play the game. You can try to twist that into some perverse "expectation" that I have that everyone should play like me, or some sort of attempt at imposing my will on the game. But those interpretations exist only in your head, not in reality. In reality, it's just me stating an opinion or a recommendation based on opinion. If you are going to have "serious problems" because I think some ways to approach the game are better than others, and I have the gall to say so, it really is you that has the problem, not me. Your problem seems to be that I am not allowed to have any opinions, because any opinion I have is somehow automatically converted into me imposing myself on everyone around me like a tyrant. It's perversely inaccurate.

quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
...It's fine to say "Hey, I think that x is a good way to play." It's a whole other ballgame when others point out why they disagree, and you keep going on and on about how we're wrong...

---

quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
...It's not just "I wish people would post more" but "Everyone needs to commit to spending x time playing and they need to do this and that and so and so shouldn't play because I don't like their style."...

---

quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
I have absolutely no tolerance for people who can't understand this is supposed to be fun and different people like to play different ways and that is perfectly fine. We all get that you like things a certain way, but you need to realize that other people like things other ways, and that doesn't make them unable to commit to the game.

---

Silent players like to play silent and it's perfectly okay, so stop trying to enforce your will on them by saying 'silent playing hurts the game'--that's essentially the same thing as saying 'I don't think you should play silently'.

What is also perfectly okay is that I have an opinion and I express it. You really need to get over this, because it isn't going to stop happening. It's either that or ban me and shut me up that way.

quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. You treat everyone who doesn't take this as seriously as you as not worthy of playing the game, then claim that they have no common sense.

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But the level of commitment I describe is the level I think is appropriate, what other level of commitment would I be talking about? If you feel you are meeting the appropriate level of commitment why would you give a flying thingy if I felt differently? By the same token, why would you assume I wouldn't feel differently, and if I am so outrageous as to actually express my opinion, why would you assume that I am somehow enforcing my will on you?

Its a discussion nder, a lot of people were talking about what they think the minimum commitment is. Bernek said 3-4 posts per round, other people just said being silent was bad. I don't see why my opinion is somehow different--though it's clear you do.

Honestly, I don't really want to know why you think that that, because it isn't true, and I am telling you it isn't true. You *cannot* tell me what my motivations are and expect to be taken seriously. You aren't in my head. Since it isn't true, you can stop letting it upset you. I'm flat out telling you that I believe 100% people should play however the frick they want. Okay? That doesn't mean I don't have an opinion on how to play the game and I am not going to bite my tongue and not say what I think while everyone around me says exactly what they think.

I understand it's a game, and I want everyone to have fun. Also, I think there's a certain level of effort required. SO DOES EVERYONE ELSE. We all have different ideas as to what that level of effort is. We can disagree on those levels of effort and we can have a discussion about that. But personally? I'd appreciate it if we could do so without all the baggage.

quote:

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Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by fwybwed:
Come on guys dont get it all twisted in your udergarments...

---

Or well, I guess, since you say it amuses you, I'm... glad? [/QUOTE]

Sry PD but this really has nuthin to do with either of you I am just speakin in general.

How you interpreted that I was talking about you and Nder, well I dunno how you picked that up...

lol

but I really have nuthin against anyone, but some guys in the game get real "tudenal"(my word) hahaaa. And that is funny.

Edit: I never stated that i was annoyed lol