quote:

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Originally posted by rats60:
How is it fraud? The only one out is the person paying for the insurance. What is obvious is you have no experience dealing with postal insurance claims.

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No, the post office is out $250 if you mail a $50 package that was insured for $300 when it goes completely missing. I was told this was mail fraud, as well it should be if it's not.

I didn't say i KNEW after 'Slinga corrected me because i really don't know, i could only tell you what i was told by a USPS employee, who knows better than i. Was it really that distracting from the thread? That i said it was illegal, was told no it's not, said why i thought it was illegal, then had someone jump down my throat for not having any insurance claim experience when i didn't even say i had any?

I'm pretty sure the conversation i started is enlightening a few people on insurance claims and fraud, since there were a few that agreed with me and afew that disagreed. Your last post didn't even make sense so i'm not sure what you added other than your poor attitude and assumptions, so try to relax, eh?

At any rate, for those who also thought it is mail fraud, i talked to two USPS employees and they both said it isn't considered mail fraud, and if the value of the contents was less than insured for, they would just cover that amount.
Though that, i still don't understand.

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Originally posted by Tha Gunslinga:
See, if you file an insurance claim, you need to prove value. So if you insured for $1000, but the only value evidence you have is a paypal invoice for $200, you're only going to get $200. You cannot make money by sending things, insuring them for infinity, and then filing a claim if they disappear.

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No, i get that. But if the package is gone as opposed to damaged and opened, they can't prove what was in there.
What is supposed to happen if you have no records of what was put in the package, and it goes missing? Wouldn't they have to pay up since they still are the ones who lost it?
Guess i'm being too technical though, i'm sure it only comes up once every other year.

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Originally posted by Sovarius:
No, i get that. But if the package is gone as opposed to damaged and opened, they can't prove what was in there.
What is supposed to happen if you have no records of what was put in the package, and it goes missing? Wouldn't they have to pay up since they still are the ones who lost it?
Guess i'm being too technical though, i'm sure it only comes up once every other year.

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I think proving damaged cards to USPS would be harder than proving if a package is missing, since you'd have tracking, which if it says it was never delivered could be considered lost after a certain amount of time.

As for proving whats in the package? I don't think you can, in my example if I had actually sent say, a 25 centcommon instead of a mox they wouldn't know, it just happens to be that the tracking says its missing and it was insured for $400, then they asked what was in it. The trick to exploiting that system (if you were trying to for some reason) would be to have insured a package and actually have the tracking say its lost, which happens I'd say less than .1% of the time.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sovarius:
What is supposed to happen if you have no records of what was put in the package, and it goes missing?

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You will need to prove value. You will need a paypal receipt showing the amount paid for the item, plus the address on the paypal invoice will need to match the recipient's address. If you don't have your I's dotted and your T's crossed, you will get nothing.

quote:

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Originally posted by Tha Gunslinga:
You will need to prove value. You will need a paypal receipt showing the amount paid for the item, plus the address on the paypal invoice will need to match the recipient's address. If you don't have your I's dotted and your T's crossed, you will get nothing.

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I would also like to see the base value of "DC is enough" from $100 to $250.

I'd also like to see some mention of what's acceptable for international trades.

One other thing I don't think was sufficiently covered - what happens in third-party trades? Am I only responsible for getting it to the go-between? Using Jazaray as an example If I send something to her address, and the actual recipient is in Singapore (true story! lol) how far am I considered responsible?

I'd assume common sense prevails that I only have to prove delivery to Jazaray, but let's air it out while the topic is hot

Glad there is finally some real and constructive discussion on this issue.

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Originally posted by Tha Gunslinga:
Man, insurance on trades is going to be basically useless. I mean, you would have to get a professional opinion on value, all sorts of stuff.

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Originally posted by Vegas10:
Then why in a previous discussion thread with INCA was he always saying in almost every answer that if there was a problem (and this included trades) that one should use insurance. I am a USPS mailcarrier and have mentioned many times that Insurance isn't the golden goose the admins( who I don't think do many deals on here anymore) and some of the Mods think it is. USPS is broke so they want reasons to deny claims.I do respect all the hardwork that you all do for this site and am not trying to insult anyone, but I just wonder how many admin/mods here have ever actually had to file an insurance claim with USPS and if so how sucessful were they, especially on trades. On a purchase with an invoice I think if lost you would have a good chance of success. That being said as a USPS employee, I can tell you that packages getting lost is extremely rare, it is more likley for something to be damaged by postal machines than getting lost, and Postal machines rarley damage items.

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In previous threads everyone was saying whatever. It really didn't matter until Leshrac stepped in. As you can see, MOTL is moving away from the "only insurance matters" position, so let's do the same. I also pointed out in the beginning of this discussion multiple times that insurance was hard to prove and dispute and get your money back, especially in trades, which is after all what this site is about.

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Originally posted by AtriumXP:

One other thing I don't think was sufficiently covered - what happens in third-party trades? Am I only responsible for getting it to the go-between? Using Jazaray as an example If I send something to her address, and the actual recipient is in Singapore (true story! lol) how far am I considered responsible?

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eg:

1. packing too many cards into a toploader and causing damage

2. not taping a toploader close and allowing the cards to slip out during transit (especially old toploaders which have been overpacked before and have lost their shape)

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Originally posted by choco man:
If someone excuses a sender by agreeing to the usual "lost/stolen/damaged" mail clause, does this excuse a sender who doesn't properly package an item?

eg:

1. packing too many cards into a toploader and causing damage

2. not taping a toploader close and allowing the cards to slip out during transit (especially old toploaders which have been overpacked before and have lost their shape)

3. packing different shaped/sized items in the same container carelessly and causing creases/indents (eg putting pre-con decks and oversized cards in the same bubble mailer that's undersized).

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Although it's open to discussion, personally I would rule that if the package itself wasn't damaged (that is to say, if it doesn't arrive in a "sorry we screwed up" bag from the post office) that the sender would be liable for compensating for damage caused by insufficient protection.

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Just to clarify... If I arrange a sale, and the buyer tells me to ship it to an address, I'm responsible only for getting it to that address, correct?

If this address is a middle-man, whether I know it or not, am I responsible for getting it to them, or am I also responsible for whatever happens after it arrives there?

Who is liable if it ultimately fails to arrive to the physical buyer?

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quote:

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Originally posted by AtriumXP:
Perhaps this is covered somewhere and I'm not recalling it properly, but I don't think I understand what you're saying about 3rd party shipping.

Just to clarify... If I arrange a sale, and the buyer tells me to ship it to an address, I'm responsible only for getting it to that address, correct?

If this address is a middle-man, whether I know it or not, am I responsible for getting it to them, or am I also responsible for whatever happens after it arrives there?

Who is liable if it ultimately fails to arrive to the physical buyer?

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It really depends on the 3rd Party arrangements. If you have no idea that you're dealing with a third party, obviously there's no way that you would be held liable for anything that happens once the cards arrive at the location you were shipping to. In most cases, it's known to everyone, and most 3rd Party deals involve both traders sending to the third party. At that point, it depends on the specific arrangements regarding who is paying for what shipping and who wants what types of protection, and the person who pays for the shipping of a given package is going to be the one that would be responsible if something happened to it.

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• The threshold has been increased from $100 to $200.
• I've clarified that restricted delivery confirmation is not required.
• I've laid out how the value of the deal is to be determined.
• I've clarified that this applies to all deals, not just trades.

= = = = =

As for any additional discussions on international shipping, I can't be 100% sure, but from USPS website here:

http://www.usps.com/ship/insurance-and-extra-services.htm (International tab)

It seems that there is a "restricted delivery" option ($4.55) which from the description sounds like it includes signature confirmation, but only if the package is sent with registered mail ($11.75) and return receipt ($2.35) service. These costs will be on top of the package itself (~$3.00 to Canada, $3.75 elsewhere, for first-class, for 1-2oz).

I believe we've generally been using registered mail for delivery confirmation here. I've read somewhere above that it doesn't even always track to delivery, but I think it's the best we have outside of Express Mail tracking (which is much better, but also costs $38 now).

So basically, semi-reliable DC costs about $15.00, SC costs roughly $22.00, 100% reliable DC (and IIRC, EMI does not include signature confirmation) costs $38.00.

I'm not sure what to do with that. If you're willing to split domestic/international shipping rules, I would personally suggest <$100 trade/sales proof of shipping is sufficient,* >=$100 and <$500 trade/sales registered mail is sufficient, and >$500 trade/sales either the combination signature confirmation above, or express mail (even without signature), is sufficient.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:
* I fully realize this is a departure from the whole point of requiring delivery confirmation; however, considering the costs of such delivery confirmation when shipping internationally, I think this is at least a reasonable suggestion for small trades, even if not ultimately adopted.

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The idea is not to find the cheapest shipping options, but to define the acceptable methods that provide the proofs required by the existing rules should there be a problem. Having 2 completely opposite rules regarding who is liable for lost/damaged mail simply based on the locations of both traders seems like it would cause more problems than it would solve. International shipping by nature is going to be more expensive and always has been, and it's up to each trader to determine if the risks of shipping without the proper protections are worth it.

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Originally posted by thror:
Been a week. Bump for visibility.

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