1. For any deal where the combined value of the contents sent by one party is less than $200, proof (via USPS delivery confirmation or some equivalent) that a package sent by the sending party was delivered to the receiving party will create a rebuttable presumption that the sender fulfilled his or her part of the trade.
2. For any deal where the combined value of the contents sent by one party is $200 or more, proof (via USPS signature confirmation or some equivalent) that a package sent by the sending party was delivered to and signed for by the receiving party (or someone at the receiving party's address) will create a rebuttable presumption that the sender fulfilled his or her part of the trade.
3. These presumptions may be rebutted by a preponderance of evidence that the sender did not in fact fulfill his or her part of the trade. In other words, other evidence presented by the receiving party demonstrates that there is a greater than 50% chance that the receiving party did not receive the items he or she was promised.

1. A method agreed upon by both parties.
2. The amount the receiving party paid, if the deal is an exchange of money for cards.
3. The MOTL Price Guides, if they can be considered accurate by the moderator handling the case.
4. The average recent ending price of the cards on eBay (provided the auction resulted in an actual sale).
5. The reasonable discretion of the moderator handling the case.

I'm setting the effective date for this rule as May 28 because I want to give everyone a two weeks to comment on this rule and suggest any changes they would make. Well reasoned comments and suggestions are appreciated. Personal attacks on anyone commenting will not be tolerated. All viewpoints are valid, including not amending the rules at all. I want to provide sending rules that make sense for the community and for the moderators who have to decide sometimes difficult cases. I won't take it personally if you think this is a terrible idea (though please tell me why you think that).

Unless I post otherwise, these amendments will take effect at midnight MOTL time on May 28, 2012 (i.e., the morning of May 28). Depending on the comments received, I may decide to revise these amendments before then, in which case I'll edit this post.

Thank you.

__________________
"He fights you not because you have wronged him, but because you are there."

[16:17] <@BrassMan> what do you need new tech for?
[16:18] <@BrassMan> gush is unrestricted

Don't know if way too busy or don't actually care about site :$

The length of time to come to this conclusion is unacceptable. Would you please consider the offers of one of the dozen or so MOTLers who have offered to either buy the site outright, or start a cash drive to buy it and put control in the hands of the current moderators? You don't respond to e-mails from anyone, so I don't know how/where else to say it.

Under $100, DC is enough.
Over $100, Sig Confirmation is enough.

We good?

quote:

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Originally posted by MasterWolf:
So non-lawyer speak...

Under $100, DC is enough.
Over $100, Sig Confirmation is enough.

We good?

Also, thank you.

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Well, I think Restricted Sig Confirmation is what he meant.

Thanks,
Jazaray

__________________
A Plastered Dragon Original Limerick:
There was a nice lassie named Jaz
Many wished to have what she has,
A delicate face,
A soft warm embrace,
And a whole lot of bedroom pizzazz.

WeedIan: Jazaray is like MOTL's Mom.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jazaray:
Well, I think Restricted Sig Confirmation is what he meant.

Thanks,
Jazaray

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Is that a real thing?

quote:

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Originally posted by MasterWolf:
Is that a real thing?

Also, what about international trades? What's the equivalent of whatever that is?

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Yes, it's a real thing, lol. It means only the person it's addressed to can sign for it. It costs a bit more.. maybe a dollar or two.

I'll let Lesh answer the international question.

Thanks,
Jazaray

__________________
A Plastered Dragon Original Limerick:
There was a nice lassie named Jaz
Many wished to have what she has,
A delicate face,
A soft warm embrace,
And a whole lot of bedroom pizzazz.

WeedIan: Jazaray is like MOTL's Mom.

quote:

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Originally posted by MasterWolf:
Is that a real thing?

Also, what about international trades? What's the equivalent of whatever that is?

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Yes, it's a real thing, and yes it's expensive.

DC=$.75 @Post Office, Free online
Sig Con=$2.55 @PO, $2.10 online
Restricted Delivery=$4.55, available only @PO AND when you purchase one of the following: $200+ insurance, COD ($5.90-$19.90), Registered Mail (from $10.95), or Certified Mail ($2.95).

quote:

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Originally posted by Tranderas:
buy it and put control in the hands of the current moderators?

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quote:

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Originally posted by MasterWolf:
Lesh: Some clarification please on whether regular signature confirmation is OK, or if the restricted one is required. It appears that the latter runs about 4x the price of the former.

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If you read the 2nd item, it says Sig Con signed by the recieving party. That means you can send with regular Sig Con, and it's the receiver's responsibility to make sure he/she signs for the package. It's an important distinction, and I'm glad he worded it as such. That way, it's a reasonably priced solution to largish trades for the sender, and it's a reasonable responsibility for the receiver to be the guy accepting the package. In all practicality, if a guy said he's not going to physically be at the address I'm shipping to, I'd rather not send $100+ worth of cards to him.

@Tranderas - Yeah, he could have issued these changes earlier, but in the grand scheme of things it's not a big deal. If the speed of these changes are that upsetting, I suggest you never enter local politics or a homeowners association. I'll never stop being amazed at the level of entitlement people acquire over things that they A) do not own and B) are free to use.

@the ruling change - I like it. Reasonable across the board, conforms to what most people intuit the existing rules already are, and the Sig Con guideline gives traders a tiered system for liability as it relates to the value of the trade.

About half my deals are international. Could we get something to govern international deals? Registered is the only semi-viable option which runs $16+ and doesn't always provide tracking. Are we stuck with requiring the other party to agree to other terms still or just blind risk? It would be nice if the rules didn't assume everyone lived in the US; at least mention whats expected of international deals.

quote:

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Originally posted by Zeckk:
If you read the 2nd item, it says Sig Con signed by the recieving party. That means you can send with regular Sig Con, and it's the receiver's responsibility to make sure he/she signs for the package.

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you're reading something that I'm not. The way #2 is worded means its the senders responsibility to make sure they obtain signature confirmation from the receiving party. This is done via restricted delivery, otherwise anyone could sign for the package and the sender would not have sufficient proof of delivery.

quote:

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Originally posted by Tranderas:
It took you two months to say "both sides to this argument have merit so I'm going to go dead in the middle?"

Don't know if way too busy or don't actually care about site :$

The length of time to come to this conclusion is unacceptable. Would you please consider the offers of one of the dozen or so MOTLers who have offered to either buy the site outright, or start a cash drive to buy it and put control in the hands of the current moderators? You don't respond to e-mails from anyone, so I don't know how/where else to say it.

I don't object to the decision, but I do object to the owner's apparent lack of desire to pay any attention to the site.

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I think you are completely out of place with that reply. A) Why would he not take his time on the matter plus deal with everything he has going for normal life.

and B) To put things into perspective, an online message board, I wouldn't get too worked up about it. And if you say you have invested time into it, remember that I have 5 more years on here than you and still feel this way.

quote:

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Originally posted by skizzikmonger:

Moral of the story: Make sure your end of the deal is less than $100

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quote:

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Originally posted by caquaa:
This seem about right.
The first concern/question I have is regarding the $100 arbitrary limit. Why was $100 chosen? Paypal offers buyer protection up to $250 with DC through ebay, signature confirmation required over $250. Its a limited I'd be more comfortable with. Shipping cuts into smaller deals ($100-200) a lot more if they're required to have signature restricted delivery.

About half my deals are international. Could we get something to govern international deals? Registered is the only semi-viable option which runs $16+ and doesn't always provide tracking. Are we stuck with requiring the other party to agree to other terms still or just blind risk? It would be nice if the rules didn't assume everyone lived in the US; at least mention whats expected of international deals.

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I agree with everything above. $100 is a very easy number to reach these days while $250 still takes some effort. Clarification on signature confirmation vs. restricted delivery would be great too, as there's a non-negligible difference in cost. I may be somewhat alright with signature confirmation on $100+ deals (even though it will cost about $2.50 above DC) but restricted delivery on $100+ deals would be somewhat crushing.

@Leshrac, I don't want to just make an assumption that you either are or aren't up to date with prices since you haven't been very active, but basically everything in Vintage/Legacy shot up by 5x what it used to be. One Underground Sea that might've been $20-30 the last time you dealt with it is $100 now. More than half of my purchases and sales recently have been over $100 (and under $250) and most of these were just for a playset (or less) of cards that aren't P9/equivalent.

I think international shipping just got totally lost along the way, but some guidance on that would be useful as well. I believe most people have been using registered mail as the equivalent of delivery confirmation. Is there an equivalent to (signature confirmation/retricted delivery)?

Thanks for the update and decision.

quote:

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Personal attacks on anyone commenting will not be tolerated.

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And don't tell me it won't come up, because it will

Also, I think I'm not comprehending the rules as well as I could because "rebuttable" seems to be being used contrary to My understanding of it's definition. I'm pretty good with words when I want to be, so I would suggest altering the rules to make them slightly more clear because a lot of people on MOTL do not command the English language as well as you do, Leshrac

It is still okay to have people accept DC and go through our own rules in e-mail, like we kinda do now?

__________________
MOTL's Most Likely to Play in the Pro Tour - 2007, 2008, and 2009
(My 2008 Nationals)

The presumption here basically means that if a condition is met (for #1 here, delivery confirmation showing delivery) then an assumption is made by the mods that the sender fulfilled his obligations. It's "rebuttable" in the sense that if the parties have other evidence to prove otherwise, the mods can consider that evidence. Preponderance of the evidence is "more likely than not" hence the 50% mentioned.

So in other words, if DC shows delivered, you are assumed to have fulfilled your obligations, but if the other party can convince the mods that it's more likely than not that they didn't receive (through other evidence) then the case may still be decided against you.

In contrast, irrebutable presumption would mean that once the condition is met, it is conclusive regardless of ofher evidence. So if this was an irrebutable presumption, DC showing delivered would end that inquiry regardless of whether the parties had ofher evidence on this issue.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jazaray:
Well, I think Restricted Sig Confirmation is what he meant.

Thanks,
Jazaray

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Restricted Delivery (503.7.0)

Directs delivery only to addressee or addressee's authorized agent.

I'm not sure that the mailman is going to bother getting the addressees signature. It sounds like parents or spouses at a minimum will be allowed to sign in the post offices eyes.

For mail insured for more than $200, the USPS maintains a delivery record (including recipient's signature).

I would also agree with those who say that sig confirmation on 100.00 is a low threshold given the rise of prices with Legacy and introductio of Mythics. 200 would be better in my opinion and is covered if sender insures the cards.

quote:

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Originally posted by MAB_Rapper:
I'm in agreement, but it looks like I have to charge even more for shipping.

It is still okay to have people accept DC and go through our own rules in e-mail, like we kinda do now?

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I think one of the underlying problems with all of this is that shipping has just gotten way more expensive. Especially since January. While it does suck, and nobody wants to pay more, it's just the facts.

While there are some changes that people might not like about this, all in all I think this is amazing. Larger trades will cost more under the rules, but you can still work with your buyer and agree to userp the rules like always. Those of you who have customers that are constantly buying lots greater than $100 shouldn't have too much of a problem with trust and making an agreement there.

It brings things back to the way they should (in my opinion) be, and it gives some of the protections that Lesh and Inca wanted to add in. I'm sure it will help the mods make rulings as well now that there is a decree that they can point to, and clear cut rules as to what should be done.

Not that I'm all that significant here, but I thank you guys Inca, Lesh, and our mods for coming up with something. Me being a jerk about it publicly wasn't anything personal, I just really wanted to see it fixed.

quote:

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Originally posted by MAB_Rapper:
It is still okay to have people accept DC and go through our own rules in e-mail, like we kinda do now?

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Yes, that is a basic standard that we have, that the traders may always choose to override any MOTL rules as long as it is explicitly agreed to.

__________________
There's no need to fear, UNDERDOG is here!

All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

Report rules violations.

quote:

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Originally posted by baldr7:
At first glance, these rules seem good to me. I would, however, just ask that for international trades Registered mail be acceptable for up to $250, as there is a general lack of good international shipping options

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Agreed on this.