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Originally posted by stab107:
I just want to make sure that next Thursday, August 4, is a deadline that won't change. I'll be going out of town tomorrow but I would like to have more brewing time. Let me know, thanks!

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The deadline won't change. It would be unfair to individuals like yourself, and everyone can wait a few more days for the tournament to begin.

Most of the points I wanted to make about Mishra's Workshop have already been made. But let me just post here what I sent to some people via PM:

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yakusoku:

Workshop and Academy are too explosive, have the potential to warp the metagame, and the rules are meant to codify the spirit of the game, not to stand as an inflexible letter of the law. The game is meant to be fun and the Workshop + Academy ban is meant to foster deck creativity, not stifle it. Storage lands like the ones from Fallen Empires, the depletion lands from Mercadian Masques, the lands from Time Spiral, and the "bouncelands" from Ravnica block are meant to be exempt from the ban, thus the rule.

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The letter of the law is "lands that only produce mana can't be banned" from which people always deduce that Workshop can't be banned. The spirit behind the law is that if we took two extreme stances, it would be disastrous for the format:

1) We allow Workshop to remain legal...

It's been such a long time since Workshop hasn't been banned either week one or week two that people have long forgotten its power, but here's a little history of V3CB, where I allowed Workshop to go unbanned:

R1: Workshop won
R2: Black Lotus => The Rack + Balance or Barren Glory
R3: Workshop won
R4: Karakas + Leyline of Singularity
R5: Workshop won
R6: Workshop won

I imagine if I had allowed it to continue, we would see Workshop dominate the metagame. In V4CB and V5CB, the effect is actually amplified, since you can run multiple Workshops and multiple win conditions. That means that a deck can run two workshops and run 3 6-drops that you can play on turn 2, 3, and 4. That's just inherently broken and unfair to the other decks. If you play a fast deck, you are just overpowered by a six-drop your opponent plays on turn 2. If you play a slow deck, your opponent can just race right past you with huge threats immediately.

Imagine trying to play against this deck:

Mishra's Workshop
Mishra's Workshop
Mishra's Workshop
Wurmcoil Engine
Wurmcoil Engine

Those of you who played during Affinity might remember the strategy of playing Affinity, playing the deck that beats Affinity but loses to everything else, and playing the deck that beats the deck that beats Affinity. Usually the optimal strategy was to play Affinity and have the best plan for the mirror, hope to get lucky against the decks designed to beat you and smash everyone else.

Having access to 3 mana on turn 1, 6 on turn 2, and 9 on turn 3 is just unmatched by any other single permanent that it makes all other strategies just seem awful in comparison. Sure, you can play R/G aggro with Ancient Grudge, and you'll lose to the anti-Workshop decks and might still lose to Workshop decks (not how resilient the Wurmcoil Engine is to single removal AND land destruction AND hand disruption)

2) We ban EVERY non-basic land. Most of you probably weren't around for the earlier iterations when this actually WAS how V3CB was run. If Fountain of Cho was in a winning deck, it would get banned. The result was that innocent lands like Fountain of Cho, Golgari Rot Farm, and Sandstone Needle would get banned because of the OTHER two cards that formed a powerful deck and people were at a loss to make decks when you can't use many lands. It actually doesn't take very long to ban all the lands that produce more than one mana (count them up, there's not *that* many) and pretty soon we're down to:

Basic land
creature
removal

or

Basic land
creature
creature

which made for a REALLY dull environment. Fastforward to the last few iterations of V3CB and we all decided that the best thing to do was allow storage lands from MM and FE, and other similar lands that just allow you to play spells that cost more than one or two mana to never get banned. Now, the creativity was allowed to flow, knowing that overpowered lands like Strip Mine and Wasteland would soon be gone, and the decks would soon turn to running lands and powerful combinations of spells. With V5CB, I wish to keep the same spirit alive, but it's more difficult than it may seem to exactly pinpoint what lands are too powerful and unfun and which are permissible. For example, City of Traitors is the classic example of this.

It can give you access to 4 mana on turn 2, which IS ahead of the curve and quite powerful, but you can't easily run multiple copies of the card and the jumpstart is equivalent to running a ritual in your deck. Right now, faster decks still exist and slower more powerful decks also keep City of Traitors in check, despite the fact that we often have a good number of CoT decks. But, right now we're not at the point where we really see aggro, combo, or control truly dominate. We've seen some midrange decks with some disruption really keep everything in check.

Since the beginning, V5CB has seen City win in rounds 10, 12, 15 and 17. It's on my watch list, but it still doesn't seem to be dominating or warping the format yet, especially since right now it seems to be balanced by the fact that you usually have to play it as your last land and slower decks are only slower by a turn or two.

Round 10 was facilitated by Mox Ruby and Seething Song and round 17 was really all about Sol Ring's time to shine.

I may have been overzealous with Academy, but it's much too easy to play cheap artifacts which produce mana with Tolarian Academy and get a big jump. I decided to be too cautious, then to possibly let a monster loose. It could actually probably stand to be unbanned and it wouldn't be as bad as I fear it might be. If City of Traitors and Ancient Tomb aren't warping the format, Academy probably won't either.

In the end, I think Bugger came close to what actually happens that leads to this event. It's difficult to precisely word it so that exactly what lands will and won't be banned.

__________________
There are two rules for success:

Deck 1 is in... with some real big things.
__________________
I don't check my PM box, so when responding to me, send me an email: Reid.B.Fisher@gmail.com

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Originally posted by Numotflame96:
out of curiosity, are specific prizes assigned to difenret achivements or is it just randomly distributed?
also, is only hte deck that wins "spike" going to get banned and will the 3rds rule still apply?

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The prizes are going to be randomly distributed.

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Originally posted by djcards:
Are we still able to make submissions? I just found this thread and interested to play.

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Absolutely. You have until next Wednesday night.

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The decks that win, say the shortest name and longest name still can't be mize decks, correct? Evenw hen going for achievements, they must follow all other rules?

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For example Mono-brown, it is easy to make a deck of artifacts and lands, and WUBRG, it is easy to make a deck of one card of each color. Additionally, with the Timmy1, is that largest creature normally, or largest in play? In the case of Serra Avatar with infinite life, and Quillspike/Devoted Druid combo on the board for infinite p/t, which one wins Timmy1?

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Originally posted by Jtrade77:

For example Mono-brown, it is easy to make a deck of artifacts and lands, and WUBRG, it is easy to make a deck of one card of each color. Additionally, with the Timmy1, is that largest creature normally, or largest in play?

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I will counting the largest creature on the battlefield for Timmy1.

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In the case of Serra Avatar with infinite life, and Quillspike/Devoted Druid combo on the board for infinite p/t, which one wins Timmy1?

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One hint to new players, if you play a 5 card deck that needs all five cards to "go off" you're in for a world of disappointment.

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Originally posted by mattw:
insightful comment

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Just submitted my second deck

Subject: Second Submission

__________________
I don't check my PM box, so when responding to me, send me an email: Reid.B.Fisher@gmail.com

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Originally posted by LemonMeringue:
I'm excited and yet at the same time I dread doing 80+ matchups

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For anyone else, Wednesday is the LAST day to submit.

It's time to let the cat out of the bag...

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Myy:

I suggest Yaku MUST use moonlace in his next deck. it's only fair

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Challenge - ACCEPTED!

__________________
There are two rules for success:

That way if you just like to check stuff out they will already have it scored and you can fill in half your results without thinking.

Some guys are even quite generous and give an abbreviated version of how every match plays out.

havnt played this game since 3CB looong ago.

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Originally posted by SageShadows:
Don't worry. I'm gunning for the Tarmogoyf achievement.

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Then I hope my name gets randomly chosen over yours for it.

Also, Moonlace is nothing. When you see my win condition for that award, you'll fall out of your chair laughing-- unless you actually lose to it.

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Originally posted by MagixDK:
i have my eyes set on the FAIL achievement

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__________________
"I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each. I do not think they will sing to me." -T.S. Eliot

RIP Ari

It currently goes to 30 players each with two decks, but is easily modified to include more players

I will be assigning each player a number from 1 to n where n is the number of players in the spreadsheet, and I will make it available for easy match tracking via email for anyone who asks for it.

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Originally posted by JoshSherman:
Then I hope my name gets randomly chosen over yours for it.

Also, Moonlace is nothing. When you see my win condition for that award, you'll fall out of your chair laughing-- unless you actually lose to it.

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