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Originally posted by TimeBeing:
yes. It still free stuff. Sounds like people just wanted free stuff that they could sell for 30$ after.

Did people really expect more promo card in this? You are already getting the pre-release card.

Best wizards ever comes to "printing" money in From the Vault, Judge Promos, and maybe the GP promos. They even said there not doing pre-release mythic anymore since it dilutes the pool.
The over size card are meh, the tokens are cool, the dice are always useful. And they will be somewhat rare. So who knows, in 5 years the token could be worth 10$. Honestly expected Dice, and keychains or something. So a usable token is a step up.

Yes a Planechase promo plane would have been cooler.

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What a weak argument. The entire point of WotC not announcing the contents of the helvault is because it preys upon a tendency of consumers to attach personal desires towards an unknown quantity. Imagine kids went to McDonald's and ordered a happy meal. Now imagine if, instead of a usable toy in their happy meal, their "mystery toy" was some napkins and a nutritional guide. Apologizing for WotC making crappy "free stuff" is an excuse. As an above poster said, promos = marketing, and terrible promos = terrible marketing.

WotC already makes rather large concessions to the casual crowd in terms of products and promotional products. Oversize cards and dice appeal to such a narrow subset of the MtG community that it makes little sense in terms of promotional material. Want to know what everyone loves? MPR textless cards and foil textless cards. I've met exactly 3 people in all the magic events I've gone to that actively avoid those cards, while everyone else loves to trade for them or buy them outright.

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Originally posted by Drexus:
I'm sure a significant portion of players, even after knowing what's in it will still be excited.

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Guess again. After they showed off pretty much a fancy cardboard statue, I told about 50 people what was in it. Not a single person was happy last night.

__________________
MOTL's Most Likely to Play in the Pro Tour - 2007, 2008, and 2009
(My 2008 Nationals)

I think the most excitement comes from the new set itself, regardless of how bad it is. While they already provide a bunch of free product, finding a way to provide more of a set would likely be a better choice to drive people to attend. MPR cards is right on track I'd think. Provide a bunch of textless commons or something as the special thing. Prereleases might be even more interesting if they included a prize structure similar to old states with everyone getting one generic promo and top performers getting something even better. It would even allow them to provide mythic foils w/o the feeling that it dilutes that particular card.

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Originally posted by Zeckk:
What a weak argument. The entire point of WotC not announcing the contents of the helvault is because it preys upon a tendency of consumers to attach personal desires towards an unknown quantity. Imagine kids went to McDonald's and ordered a happy meal. Now imagine if, instead of a usable toy in their happy meal, their "mystery toy" was some napkins and a nutritional guide. Apologizing for WotC making crappy "free stuff" is an excuse. As an above poster said, promos = marketing, and terrible promos = terrible marketing.

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I dunno man. The Helvault is a bonus, on top of the stuff Wizards already gives for the pre-release. They give the prize product to BnM stores. They give you the pre-release promo. Yeah you're paying to play in the tournament, but you can't expect to play magic, and open product for free.

All marketing aside, I feel like if they aren't printing you money, as Time Being said, people just aren't happy. It seems unreasonable to me. I guess it's a compliment to them that their promos and such have gotten to the point where people expect free money. I know back in the day it wasn't that way, but hey whatever it's a free promo. I mean yeah, be disappointed that the Helvault stuff is lackluster, but is it really that huge of a deal? If they didn't have a Helvault, most people will still play in the pre-release. Bonus stuff is bonus.

Kids that frequent McDonald's are going to be disappointed with their mystery prize of heart disease anyway later on in life. Get them accustomed to disappointment .

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Originally posted by MAB_Rapper:
Guess again. After they showed off pretty much a fancy cardboard statue, I told about 50 people what was in it. Not a single person was happy last night.

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Originally posted by Drexus:
Different strokes I guess.
If you were going to attend the pre-release anyways (my case) then this is just an added bonus. If you weren't then life continues as normal. There's an overwhelming sense of entitlement about the Helvault, pre-releases are meant to be more casual and this time you get a free dice!!!!!!!!!!

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You mean more casual than they already are?...

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Originally posted by Drexus:
There's an overwhelming sense of entitlement about the Helvault

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Helavault has this stuff in it

most people: "I don't like that stuff. I'm disappointed."

few people: "It's not exciting, but it's free. I like dice."

smart people: "It could have been exciting. Exciting is good marketing... this is bad marketing and the waste of an opportunity."

dumb people: "Free has sold me. I'd drive 400 miles for a free fart in the face because it's free, who doesn't like free?"

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Originally posted by Jtrade77:
I see this thread as something like this:

Helavault has this stuff in it

most people: "I don't like that stuff. I'm disappointed."

few people: "It's not exciting, but it's free. I like dice."

smart people: "It could have been exciting. Exciting is good marketing... this is bad marketing and the waste of an opportunity."

dumb people: "Free has sold me. I'd drive 400 miles for a free fart in the face because it's free, who doesn't like free?"

Really, most of us are going to a pre-release anyway, let's not kid ourselves here. I don't think the Helavault was anyone's dealbreaker.

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Hell alt art anything remotely usefull would have been nice, even if nothing but common/uncommon, could have printed alt art versions of angels, demons, etc or block common/uncommon stuff, or hell even basic lands.

Could have given the oversized stuff new art to make them unique in more then just size.

As people already stated, Planchase version of Innistrad would have been cool, could have added 8 or those for top placements *Shrugs*...

Just loads and loads of stuff they could have done, would have costed them about the same, and actually made some people happy, and all without having to print money....

Imagine that...

im just sad that this coulda been something good.

this didnt have to be a 30 dollar card or anything.

even worthless stuff, that people will use.

like dice, tokens, lifecounters etc.

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Originally posted by Zeckk:
Agreed, though it really kills me that WotC continually shoots itself in the foot regarding marketing and public relations. Their marketing team certainly isn't worth whatever they are being paid.

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The only reason people are calling it bad marketing is because the contents have been spoiled. If the contents were still secret it would be a brilliant marketing ploy as people get worked up over the countdown to opening it in the charged atmosphere of the pre-release.

Sure, maybe there would have been a let-down once opened, but in the context of an exciting event overall, especially if one has been having a grand time with trading and playing, that potential let-down would be mitigated.

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Originally posted by keywacat:
The only reason people are calling it bad marketing is because the contents have been spoiled. If the contents were still secret it would be a brilliant marketing ploy as people get worked up over the countdown to opening it in the charged atmosphere of the pre-release.

Sure, maybe there would have been a let-down once opened, but in the context of an exciting event overall, especially if one has been having a grand time with trading and playing, that potential let-down would be mitigated.

Now, with zero context and only some poor-quality photos of some of the contents it is easy to deride the Helvault and WotC marketing in general.

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Originally posted by Jtrade77:

Really, most of us are going to a pre-release anyway, let's not kid ourselves here. I don't think the Helavault was anyone's dealbreaker.

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The problem is though that all of these stores are having people pay and register in advance for something that will disappoint. Granted, I did it for both of my store's events just because I knew I was going and I want to make sure I could play. Then again, probably won't be a problem since the midnight pre-release always outdraws our other 3 events combined (157 at midnight for DA, 120 for the other 3 combined).

__________________
MOTL's Most Likely to Play in the Pro Tour - 2007, 2008, and 2009
(My 2008 Nationals)

Personally? I'm disappointed. I was hoping there would be a really cool buyback program setup where there's stuff for everyone, but the winner gets an old (or a new nonrare) angel or demon, perhaps with some foil stamp on it commemorating the win. It didn't have to be a valuable one, could have been a 9th foil Serra. Doesn't everyone already have 50 of those?

This is something that could have been hit out of the park, but it simply isn't. Oversized cards aren't practically useful. I would never use one for my general. I tried last year at the Commander event, and it was really, really dumb to me. Dice? Meh. I have lots of dice I don't use from Magic products that I bought. Don't really need more, and I don't know anyone who does. I do like the tokens, though. I just wish they weren't the best thing in the Helavault.

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Originally posted by Jtrade77:

dumb people: "Free has sold me. I'd drive 400 miles for a free fart in the face because it's free, who doesn't like free?"

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The first step to successful trolling is to be subtle enough that it's not immediately obvious that you're trolling. Just sayin'

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Originally posted by MAB_Rapper:
Guess again. After they showed off pretty much a fancy cardboard statue, I told about 50 people what was in it. Not a single person was happy last night.

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...Because having someone bitter & complaining about the contents & telling everyone who will listen is going to make things better...? What?

As a store owner, I am upset that someone chose to open the Helvault & release the contents (& that more than 1 someone has been selling the contents on eBay for about a week now) BUT the *reality* is that people come to the pre-releases to be the 1st to play with the new cards. For their $30 (at most stores) entry, they get to walk away with at least 6 packs of brand new cards + prize support. After stickers & tattoos, most of my players are thrilled to get a D20 counter die. And the art on the angel cards is cool.

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Originally posted by kof2e2ad2ikt:
...Because having someone bitter & complaining about the contents & telling everyone who will listen is going to make things better...? What?

As a store owner, I am upset that someone chose to open the Helvault & release the contents (& that more than 1 someone has been selling the contents on eBay for about a week now) BUT the *reality* is that people come to the pre-releases to be the 1st to play with the new cards. For their $30 (at most stores) entry, they get to walk away with at least 6 packs of brand new cards + prize support. After stickers & tattoos, most of my players are thrilled to get a D20 counter die. And the art on the angel cards is cool.

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Glad I'm not at your store to overpay then.

__________________
MOTL's Most Likely to Play in the Pro Tour - 2007, 2008, and 2009
(My 2008 Nationals)

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Originally posted by MAB_Rapper:
Glad I'm not at your store to overpay then.

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5 dollars a big deal?

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Originally posted by Sovarius:
5 dollars a big deal?

Unless there are stores i don't know of who run prerelease events for $20

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When you play in 3-4 pre-releases, $5 per can add up.

__________________
MOTL's Most Likely to Play in the Pro Tour - 2007, 2008, and 2009
(My 2008 Nationals)

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Originally posted by MAB_Rapper:
When you play in 3-4 pre-releases, $5 per can add up.

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Stores in this area usually charge between $25 & $30, depending on the venue. We'll be charging $28, not because of the Helvault, but to cover additional prize support. We're a small MtG venue (& intend to stay that way) and are more focused on providing fun for our regulars than on competing to draw in a huge crowd.

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Originally posted by MAB_Rapper:
When you play in 3-4 pre-releases, $5 per can add up.

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Yeah, but then you know that going in since you're managing to get to more than a few pre-releases. I think anything up to $30 is fine as you get six packs up front ($24ish retail) and should be getting 2 packs per person into the prize pool. Finding one at $25 is great but I would complain at $30. Anything more than that better have more packs added to the prize pool though.