Personally I think everybody did a good job (cits and wolves).

This was a very challenging game for both sides. We had intended for me to be an early sacrifice given that I was almost certainly going to be seered, and we all expected to lose. On the cit side, well you lost all of your strong players and your seer early--that's hard to come back from.

I think we can all learn things from this game--I know I learned a lot. I think everybody made mistakes, some small, some big, but that's all part of the game, but I don't think anybody should feel unhappy with how they did.

I personally, am glad for the victory, and I totally agree now that it is harder to win as a wolf than it is as a cit. I enjoyed sketching out ideas with Cait and Bugger, but I did not enjoy being a wolf. Deception is not in my nature--I'm not good at it and I don't like doing it. I wouldn't mind being a seer or angel, but I do not like being a wolf.

Things I learned:

(1) Declaring votes helps the wolves WAY more than it helps the cits. I will totally agree with this point now having seen it from the other side. There were a number of rounds (particularly the one where we lost Bugger) where we were totally frustrated by not knowing how to array ourselves.

(2) You have to pay attention to ALL the piles, not just the round 1 piles. If Bernek hadn't pointed out the R2 GLE piles, we probably would have killed off Thanos earlier in the game leaving very few players in that pile.

(3) You are *NEVER* not playing when you are a wolf. If you need to not post on the thread and you make up an excuse, you can't post anywhere. You can't IM any of your friends in the game to talk about other things.

(4) In the early game, wolves are hunting for the seer and angel and trying to take out strong players, but in the late game the wolves are trying to see to it that the remaining villagers include suspicious cits that people like to vote for. We *had* to leave kood in the game because everyone suspected him. We needed him to be there last round so that the cits would have an obvious target. Our original intention was to had the players Bernek in the last round, so revenger stayed in, Jaz stayed in, Thanos stayed in, Bernie stayed in. When it became clear that Bernek was (a) not attracting as much suspicion as usual and (b) trying to call the cits attention to the R2 GLE, and (c) far less suspicious thant kood, we needed to change our plans around. I don't know if it is true for all wolfpacks, but the early game is about removing obstacles, and the late game is about stacking the deck.

(5) Silent players get a free pass around here and it hurts the cits. I always get smacked when I complain about silent players, and in turn I had taken those lessons to heart and was smacking other people when they went on about SPs. Cait and Thanos contributed as little as possible and they were largely ignored. Anybody who opened their mouth fell under suspicion at one point or another. Unless we start seriously pushing silent players to talk, more and more people are going to start playing silent. I'm already considering to play my next game silent (doubtless some of you would be grateful for that!)

(6) Do not underestimate Bernek. He's not able to express himself clearly, and he can lose control when he is unable to convince people, but it is worth trying to decipher him and think about what he is saying. He essentially tipped us off about a mistake we were about to make. For the record, I think Bernek voted for a wolf more times than anybody else in the game, R1, R2, R4, and R5.

(7) No angel save round one makes this game (a) harder for the cits and (b) impossible for some to play. I see no reason why any wolf team that Liq is not on would not choose to kill Liq at the start of every WW game. If there is going to be no angel save R1, I think there should be a rule that whoever was killed at the start of R1 last game *cannot* be the wolf target at the start of R1 next game.

I guess that's all I have to say right now.

Except that anybody who's feelings I hurt during this game, I was only saying what I was obligated to say to try and help my team win, and I assure you I hated saying it, and didn't mean it. For what it is worth, I apologize.

I sincerely hope I do not have to play a wolf again any time soon.

I wrote a couple parody wolf songs during this game and my former leader is needling me to post them... but they are kind of trash-talky and I don't want to be ungracious. If anybody wants to see them, let me know and I will post them. Otherwise I'll spare you my doggerel.

Oh one last thing, because it was expected that Bugger and I would not make it to the end of the game, Cait received a copy of the tracker and the necessary training to use it. So there is at least one other player who has access to the tracker.

quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
I had PD pegged as soon as he trotted out the consensus strategy late in the game, but letting people have different numbers of suspects instead of cutting everything off at a certain number this time so not everyone's suspect lists were truly weighted the same. I'm surprised no one caught that.

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This time only TWO suspects were required because there were only TWO lynches left. But both this game and last game I did take into consideration ANY number of suspects that players provided, I only insisted on a certain minimum number. Suspects past that minimum contribute so few points they have nearly no effect.

quote:

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Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
(7) No angel save round one makes this game (a) harder for the cits and (b) impossible for some to play. I see no reason why any wolf team that Liq is not on would not choose to kill Liq at the start of every WW game. If there is going to be no angel save R1, I think there should be a rule that whoever was killed at the start of R1 last game *cannot* be the wolf target at the start of R1 next game.

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I'm not so sure about that. Way back in the old Mafia games, where there was no such thing as an Angel, for a while, GLE was an auto-kill first round. Then the Mafia started getting smart and leaving him, knowing that his non-death would generate suspicion. It ended up that for quite a while, GLE would be dead within 2 rounds whether by Mafia or Cits, but as people got better about how to play, it wasn't really a factor, as more people got pretty good with the bluff/double-bluff scenarios and more strategic early-round kills than just whack-the-pro.

quote:

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Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by nderdog:
I had PD pegged as soon as he trotted out the consensus strategy late in the game, but letting people have different numbers of suspects instead of cutting everything off at a certain number this time so not everyone's suspect lists were truly weighted the same. I'm surprised no one caught that.

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This time only TWO suspects were required because there were only TWO lynches left. But both this game and last game I did take into consideration ANY number of suspects that players provided, I only insisted on a certain minimum number. Suspects past that minimum contribute so few points they have nearly no effect.[/QUOTE]

Huh. Guess I didn't pay that much attention before, since I think it's a bad strategy on par with declaring votes. At best, it ends up lynching the most suspicious people who obviously would have gotten lynched anyway, but now without leaving any piles that may give some hints to draw from, and at worst can be very useful to the Wolves to help lay their plans.
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Report rules violations.

quote:

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Originally posted by koodkkslis:
Can we lynch PD IRL?

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I'd prefer real werewolves getting him but real ones are so hard to come by these days. Not like we can get them at local wal-mart.

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Plastered Dragon (3.5) (MVP game 2)
Caitiri (1.75) (MVP game 2)
Bugger (1.5)
BernieB (1.0)
GottaLoveElves (1.0)
ryan2754 (1.0)
fwybwed (1.0)
TheMidnightBomber (1.0)
PureGoblinBoy (1.0)
Our_Benefactors (1.0)
liq (1.0)
Montague (1.0)
Thanos (.75)
ectomanic (.75)
Thanos (.75)
Bernek77 (.75)
koodkkslis (0.75)
Jazaray (0.50)
hilikus(0.00)
AlmasterGM (0.00)
Masterwolf (0.00)
Our_Benefactors (0.00)
revenger (-0.25)

MVP was tight this game. Caitiri gets the nod b/c he didnt have a single vote for him all game.

This could have easily gone to Bugger for his stellar play in helping PD, and Bernek for showing vast improvement this game.

Signups will probably be on Sunday with Roles assigned so we can get 1st kill by monday.

Thanks for playing!

~MM

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quote:

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Originally posted by MeddlingMage:
The Current Standing after Game 2

Plastered Dragon (3.5) (MVP game 2)
Caitiri (1.75) (MVP game 2)
Bugger (1.5)
BernieB (1.0)
GottaLoveElves (1.0)
ryan2754 (1.0)
fwybwed (1.0)
TheMidnightBomber (1.0)
PureGoblinBoy (1.0)
Our_Benefactors (1.0)
liq (1.0)
Montague (1.0)
Thanos (.75)
ectomanic (.75)
Thanos (.75)
Bernek77 (.75)
koodkkslis (0.75)
Jazaray (0.50)
hilikus(0.00)
AlmasterGM (0.00)
Masterwolf (0.00)
Our_Benefactors (0.00)
revenger (-0.25)

MVP was tight this game. Caitiri gets the nod b/c he didnt have a single vote for him all game.

This could have easily gone to Bugger for his stellar play in helping PD, and Bernek for showing vast improvement this game.

Signups will probably be on Sunday with Roles assigned so we can get 1st kill by monday.

Thanks for playing!

~MM

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This totally sucks. I have -.25!

Omg, can this get worse for ole Rev?

and signups are middle of week (3 day work weeks but work nonetheless) and I might miss it before it fills up. Sigh.

~Revenger

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quote:

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Originally posted by koodkkslis:
Can we lynch PD IRL?

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I think another thing I learned is that any either/or scenario between two players is bad for the cits. I think it is probably never in a cit's interest to make statements like "this town's not big enough for the both of us" or "one of us has to go." But that's just my opinion.

I think you are a wonderful player kood. And believe me, I'd much prefer working with you rather than against you.

But if you want to string me up on the Pogglesworth Green, that's fine.

quote:

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Originally posted by Liq:
I knew PD was wolf the entire game.

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So did I

~MM

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quote:

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Originally posted by revenger:
This totally sucks. I have -.25!

Omg, can this get worse for ole Rev?

and signups are middle of week (3 day work weeks but work nonetheless) and I might miss it before it fills up. Sigh.

~Revenger

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*crikets*

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quote:

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Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
Revenger - signups are SUNDAY not in the middle of the week. It's right in MM's post there.

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I work untill next tuesday, which would be my middle of the week.

I will have to try and see if signups are not full by the time I go to work on sunday afternoon. 4pm EST.

~Revenger

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quote:

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Originally posted by revenger:
I work untill next tuesday, which would be my middle of the week.

I will have to try and see if signups are not full by the time I go to work on sunday afternoon. 4pm EST.

~Revenger

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quote:

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Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by revenger:
I work untill next tuesday, which would be my middle of the week.

I will have to try and see if signups are not full by the time I go to work on sunday afternoon. 4pm EST.

~Revenger

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[/QUOTE]

He is not on aim at the moment, I will try and pm him.

Thanks!

I was not aware you can hold a spot for ww...

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quote:

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Originally posted by GottaLoveElves:
Eugh.
I'm more than a little annoyed with myself for not having the time to argue as eloquently as required when I was alive.
I knew I was weak in some spots, but it was clear to me that PD was a wolf, and I just failed to prove it.
I think this was a different game if I would've played it better.

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Sorry I gave you such a hard time.

quote:

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Originally posted by GottaLoveElves:
Eugh.
I'm more than a little annoyed with myself for not having the time to argue as eloquently as required when I was alive.
I knew I was weak in some spots, but it was clear to me that PD was a wolf, and I just failed to prove it.
I think this was a different game if I would've played it better.

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Good job PD. You talked you way out of the fire when both I and GLE had you pegged off the bat. Hats off for sucessfully discounting both of our arguments against you.

quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
...Huh. Guess I didn't pay that much attention before, since I think [consensus is] a bad strategy on par with declaring votes. At best, it ends up lynching the most suspicious people who obviously would have gotten lynched anyway, but now without leaving any piles that may give some hints to draw from, and at worst can be very useful to the Wolves to help lay their plans.

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But thinking back to WW6, Jaz didn't want Thanos killed when he was. He was taken out by consensus. I can't say for certain--but given that he was so suspicious to most players, Jaz wanted to keep him in the game and offer him up in the last round similar to how we did this time around--stacking the deck. With consensus she was less able to do that and was instead stuck with me, kood, and BernieB in her final round. BernieB wasn't as suspicious so it was a less optimal set up for her. Consensus can help the wolf hide, but it can screw up their plans.

I do agree with you though, when you run consensus (especially if everybody takes part) you lose clues in the piles for that round.

quote:

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Originally posted by puregoblinboy47:
Good job PD. You talked you way out of the fire when both I and GLE had you pegged off the bat. Hats off for sucessfully discounting both of our arguments against you.

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quote:

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Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
Thanks PGB. It cost me quite a few gray hairs I'm sure!

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quote:

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Originally posted by puregoblinboy47:
Well, to be fair, Bernek helped you out quite a bit in the middle rounds.

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Good games, guys.

-Caitiri