Werewolf Se7en: The wrath of PD!(Part 2) - Magic Online Trading League Bulletin Board

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Author	Topic: Werewolf Se7en: The wrath of PD!(Part 2)
koodkkslis Member	posted March 02, 2009 04:38 PM I quickly see this round boiling down to Me vs PD. It seems that PD,Bernie and probably revenger are voting for me, Thanos has declared for PD. I will declare for PD. I don't think this town is big enough for the both of us.
Bernek77 Member	posted March 02, 2009 04:40 PM The last thing we need is another split vote this round. That can give the wolves a chance to split up and then we can say GG wolves. at that point we will only have one chance to nab a wolf! __________________ How many times do I have to have sex with your mom before you realize we have something special. 2007-08 MOTL Fantasy Hockey Champ! 2008 MOTL Fantasy Football Champ!
PlasteredDragon Member	posted March 02, 2009 07:34 PM quote: Originally posted by koodkkslis: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by PlasteredDragon: I think I was Kood's next objective, and I fully expect I'll be on his suspicion list yet again this time around. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Damn right you are. There are two confirmed cits who were gunning for you. Nobody else here suspects you to be a wolf but I sure am not going to let you slide under the rug. I still firmly believe you have to by lynched before the game is over. This argument is as inane now as it was when PGB made it. By this argument if both GLE and PGB said you are a 4 foot tall Vietnamese woman with a peg leg and a glass eye it would have to be true simply because they were later confirmed to be cits. This is beyond stupid and you know it, Kim Ki Sang. Neither of those two players was the seer, and neither of them had a good argument. PGB had the same one you are making now and, um, you lynched him. I told you I thought he was a cit and you lynched him anyway. And that's what seems to be being swept under the rug here. YOU voted for GLE when he was gunning for me. YOU voted for PGB when HE was gunning for me even when I said I thought he was a cit. And now that you've gotten both of them killed, suddenly I'm suspicious? Surely you can see how bad this looks. I'm not at all surprised you are spinning like mad to get me in the noose. GLE and PGB are confirmed cits because you had a hand in killing them both. And PGB? Heck it could have been me dead that round but it wasn't. Why didn't I vote PGB to save myself? As I recall, I pointed out that PGB should be defending himself and you quoted me "for truth" and used that as your reason for voting him off. I am not going to let you weasel out of taking responsibility for what you did and trying to put it all back on me. "We HAVE to lynch you..." what nonsense is this? What kind of fatalistic tripe are you peddling? We don't HAVE to lynch anyone in particular... and it certainly isn't up to you, Kood, to decide. quote: Originally posted by koodkkslis: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by koodkkslis: I had no choice but to change my vote to bugger! I was getting lynched! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by PlasteredDragon: No you weren't based on declared votes Bugger had 3 votes, you had 2, I had 1, and Bernek had 1. You had no way of knowing that revenger and Cait would declare for you. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well revenger did vote for me last round...I had not idea where cait would declare but I was pretty sure revenger was voting me, and ultimately that is the reason why I switched. I'd bet hes voting for me again this round. R4 Votes, in order: 1. KOO --> PD (1) 2. BB --> KOO (1) 3. BUG --> KOO (2) 4. B77 --> BUG (1) 5. JAZ --> B77 (1) 6. PD --> BUG (2) 7. O_B --> BUG (3) 8. KOO --> BUG (4) Seems to me if this was a lifesaving vote, it was awfully preemptive. Had I been trying to guess where the undeclareds would go, I would have expected Rev to go with you, Cait to probably vote for ?Bugger?, Thanos to vote for Bernek. I don't believe you kood. Oh and for the record, that dreck about me voting Bugger without being able to see where the piles were and being unable to switch? Guess again sunshine. First of all, my vote was the SIXTH declared in the round (out of 8)--at that time you had TWO votes on you and Bugger had only ONE. I didn't just vote him early for "insurance", I chose to vote for him when you had MORE votes on you and the only person calling for Bugger was Bernek, who isn't exactly known for swaying opinion. I placed that vote knowing (thanks to you) that O_B seemed to be shadowing me, and pretty much expected him to do so--which he did. Wanna talk about a dumb play? I'm supposed to be so smart that instead of publicly trashing Bernek's argument and going after you, I vote for the wolf leader knowing that I seem to have at least one follower in the crowd when there are less votes on the wolf leader than there are on you? Yeah that's a clever sac play. Genius, really, I'll have to remember that for when I am a wolf so that I can get a Most Valueless Player award. I haven't been a wolf since WW III.2, and given how the intervening games have gone (Chuck gets seered every game, and the only thing that keeps Chuck from getting lynched is the fact that he gets seered every game) what do you think I would do as a wolf? Think realllllly hard. I'm sure you can figure out that the last thing I would be doing is sacrificing the wolf leader so that my team is stuck with a player who is a lightning rod for paranoid players--especially with no seer in the game to keep them from lynching me. Shall I patronize you now and tell you that you are better than to overlook such an obvious point? quote: Originally posted by koodkkslis: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by PlasteredDragon: When your argument was shown to be utter crap, you didn't try to defend it, probably because you knew it would only look worse. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My argument did fall apart and that happens. You said it yourself, we are wrong more times than we are right. I should have defended it, but I knew that I made a grave oversight with the fact that nobody was talking about OB. I made the conscious decision to let that one go, because as you said yourself, it would look worse. Hah. You cited "slinking off to die without defending oneself" so suspicious that when PGB did it you cast a vote for him, and then you do the same thing? Listen kood, yes, trying to defend an argument that you KNOW has fallen apart is definitely something that looks suspicious. But refusing to address the fact that it has fallen apart while still calling for me to be lynched looks just as bad. You know what would have looked better? "You're right, I stand corrected, this argument doesn't hold water. I withdraw my vote." Now you are simply standing there and going "I admit I have no reason to call for PD's lynch. We need to lynch PD." There are a number of very good reasons not to lynch me, and you are ignoring or dismissing all of those, and you don't have any good reasons left to lynch me, and apparently you are ignoring that too. You are a man with a checklist, you've got the names, you've got the boxes, but you don't have the reasons. Know what it looks like you have? Orders. quote: Originally posted by koodkkslis: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by PlasteredDragon: I think your whole reason for voting Bugger in the end was because you and Bugger thought that what would happen in R4 was either you would get me lynched, or the cits would turn on you for trying to lynch me. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bugger thought he was going down when he turned the light on me. He did? How do you know, did you and he discuss it? You see I'm looking at the declared votes above. Take another look--when Bugger voted for you (vote #3 of the round) the only other votes cast were KOO --> PD and BB --> KOO. So there are 1 vote on you, and 1 vote on me, and Bugger thought he was going down? BS. I don't buy it. I think, as I said before, the intention was to try and get another strong player lynched, but as the populace had in general sided with me twice, the wolf leader thought it would be risky. So he voted for you in case the crowd turned on you with the intention of making a sac play. Maybe he thought I would vote for him again, maybe he thought I would get angry and vote for you. Whatever happened I'm sure he placed that vote for you as insurance. Then the crowd moved on HIM, and that wasn't the plan. Now he's going down and you are the one who doesn't have insurance. So you had to switch your vote to him even though he was already ahead of you in votes. That certainly makes a lot more sense than Bugger knowing he's going down when he doesn't have a single vote on him. quote: Originally posted by koodkkslis: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by PlasteredDragon: I think your whole reason for voting Bugger in the end was because you and Bugger thought that what would happen in R4 was either you would get me lynched, or the cits would turn on you for trying to lynch me. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For him to immediately switch the attention to another wolf would be a very risky, and IMO dumb move. Too bad you weren't the wolf leader. Did you argue with him about it? I think Bugger moved me down his suspicion list because he was trying to get me off his tail. I had him as a suspect since R1 and had already voted for him once. And when he switched it around, who pointed it out? You? Guess again... quote: Originally posted by PlasteredDragon: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Bugger: ...PD's been dropping in my suspicions for a little while now- the main thing I saw that warranted a vote in him was the nature of his response to GLE. Other than that he seems quite citty... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Huh. Bit of a turn around for you isn't that? No offense but I'm keeping you at 1.05. I understand that people change their minds all the time in this game, but my reasons for suspecting you earlier still stand. After that he posted he was trying to "gauge my reaction" and that I was still on his suspect list... so much for being "quite citty". I think he was trying to get me to focus on you, and you were part of that plan. Possibly unwittingly, but right now it looks more like you are a wolf. After lynching GLE and PGB you clearly thought you could get another helpful player knocked out. And you are still trying, even having admitted you've run out of reasons. quote: Originally posted by koodkkslis: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Bugger: An updated (and more honest) suspicion list would be: 1. Koodkkslis 2. Plastereddragon 3. BernieB 4. Our_Benefactors- but only if kood turns out a cit. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We know OB is a cit. So what I see here is Bugger trying to wagon on me to get my lynched. If he is successful and it is a revealed that I am a cit he goes...OH! must be OB! He is already setting up his next wagon (another cit). Now, Bugger is a rather intelligent fellow, he wouldn't put 0 wolves on his suspicion list. I would say there is at least one wolf between Bernie and PD (note my top 2 suspects). Your argument fails in so many ways. Let's assume you are a cit, why can't I be the "next wagon" bugger is trying to set up? Why can't BernieB be the "next wagon"? I think this doesn't occur to you because you are not a cit. You argue that he wouldn't put 0 wolves on his suspicion list and then you promptly skip the fact that you were his number 1 suspect. Well kood, Bugger was my number 1 suspect wasn't he? If your argument is "a smart wolf would NEVER do this" how is it that I must be a wolf when I did exactly what you just said a smart wolf wouldn't do? I realize I'm not a marquee player like Liq, or GLE, or PGB--but am I really that dumb? That I, as a wolf, would make my leader my number 1 suspect and vote for him back in R3, when I could have been voting for PGB and taking him out instead? Like you did? You are arguing in circles. As for OB? Funny how after you pointed out OB seemed to be shadowing me, he suddenly appeared on the wolf leader's suspicion list, but he never appeared on mine--and if the wolves hadn't taken him out, I wouldn't at all be surprised to find him on yours. I think it is clear why you are gunning so hard for me, and the rest of your arguments are just so much subterfuge. Not only does PD regularly get scryed, he also regularly gets SAVED. Hunt the angel by night and the helpful players during the day. That the plan? Sure fits with your voting record and behavior, though not so much with mine. quote: Originally posted by koodkkslis: Actually I am only using the fact that [Bernie] is in Pile B, and by consequence he voted for me LAST round. I am not considering the round before. Says you. quote: Originally posted by koodkkslis: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by PlasteredDragon: I declared my suspicion of Bugger in round 1, remember? And again in round 2. And again in rounds 3 and 4. And I voted for him in rounds 3 and 4. If it's a double-bluff it's a pretty damn longlived one. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It sure would be a long-lived one very risky, but the reward would be great. You get down into the final 3-4 and you can say "Look! I've suspected wolves all along!" Well, I respect you as a player and I think you are fully capable of constructing something like this. I am fully entertaining the possibility of you engineering this. I thought putting a wolf as your number one suspect was a dumb move? Now it's risky but with great rewards and you respect my ingenuity for trying to engineer it? Pah. Sounds to me like you are taking the same point and calling it an apple when you are making applesauce and calling it an orange when you are making marmalade. It's an apple or an orange, Kood. Not both. quote: Originally posted by koodkkslis: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by PlasteredDragon: Yeah, speak up silent players... Kood can't plan his strategy if you are quiet... and it's making it hard for him to figure out who the angel is. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Says the guy who tried to get Thanos banned for being silent...I am surprised you haven't made the call to silent players yet. Wow, wrong on two counts, but you've at least finally latched on to an apparent difference in my behavior. (1) I did not try to get Thanos banned, I suggested that he sit out a game. That's a tad different from being banned. But please, continue to mischaracterize my behavior, it's par for the course from you. (2) I did not make that suggestion to MM because he was silent--ecto was as silent as Thanos was, did I make the same suggestion about him? No? Why is that? That argument (and thank you SO much for dredging it up again) was about not playing--it had cost the cits a number of times. However, after the fact I apologized to Thanos (and I apologized to MM) and so having admitted that I was mistaken it suprises you that I'm not just charging out there to make that mistake again? I hate to clarify the obvious, but here goes: I was roundly beaten on after WW6. I was told that Thanos simply had a different playing style and I should not expect that everybody should play the way I want them to. Nder made it a point to dress me down publicly over the matter. Suffice it to say that I learned no matter how useless another player appears to be, if I actually complain about them being an impediment to their team, I'm going to get beaten up over it. I also admitted I was very hot to win that game and was taking it too seriously--hence the apology. And I learned a long time ago that players who are merely silent could simply be seers or angels, and so it is best not to beat them up over being silent. Yes, believe it or not kood: even someone as dumb as I am can learn something. And learn I did--remember how after that whole sorry debacle I apologized and told Thanos he should play however he wants and that I would try in the future not to get so wound up over it? Welcome to the future... where I am doing what I said I would do long before roles for this game were ever assigned. Guess you're going to have to invent another excuse to lynch me. I hope it's better than your excuses so far. __________________ -- PlasteredDragon A.K.A. Chuck Seggelin *** Sagewood Studios * My Flickr Photostream * My Blog *** [Edited 1 times, lastly by PlasteredDragon on March 02, 2009]
PlasteredDragon Member	posted March 02, 2009 08:02 PM quote: Originally posted by Thanos: I purposely slowed down posted mid game to see what attention I'd draw to myself. The answer is none. Why? Usually this kind of gameplay would make me a lightning rod to PD, how come this hasn't happened this game? Maybe because I learned my lesson last time? You, of all people Thanos, should remember: quote: Originally posted by PlasteredDragon: ...AFA playing my way goes--everyone is right, you should play however you want, and I'll try not to complain too much about it... Okay, maybe you thought my apology and my intentions of self-improvement were insincere. But seeing as how I am living up to them, you now find it suspicious? Well you did warn me, "payback is a bitch". I guess this is where you pay me back. quote: Originally posted by Thanos: PD= Suspect number 1 (I think GLE was on to something perhaps) Well that would be a change of heart for you, since you didn't think so in R2, and voted for GLE instead of me when you had the chance. I'm bummed that you feel this way, but if that's the way you feel, there's little I can do about it. GLE's argument was bad in R2--his getting lynched didn't make it better. And I totally don't buy this nonsensical "PD is gonna get lynched sooner or later" position. I fail to see, if I HAVE to be lynched, why you guys let me play at all. Why bother, why not just lynch me in R1 every game so that I eventually quit? I know I am loud and outspoken, but my chances of being a wolf aren't increased simply because people are paranoid about it. Lots of people called for me to be lynched last game. Was I wolf then? Or the game before that? Or the game before that? Chances of being assigned a wolf role are a little less than 1 in 5. MM doesn't secretly roll me twice trying to get me into wolfskin. But whatever. I've responded to the points you've raised. If you are going to fatalistically lynch me anyway, you're just wasting a round for no good reason. It's not up to me, I think my arguments and my voting records stand for themselves. There's no "there" there--just paranoia. __________________ -- PlasteredDragon A.K.A. Chuck Seggelin *** Sagewood Studios * My Flickr Photostream * My Blog ***
Thanos Member	posted March 02, 2009 08:04 PM Except for Bernek, nobody should take my comments personally
PlasteredDragon Member	posted March 02, 2009 08:40 PM quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: Well PD I edited it, maybe now you can understand what it was I was trying to get across. No I don't. Your editting appears to have amounted to adding blank lines between the sentences. quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: I never once said I suspected Kood and Revenger. Please if you are gonna put words in my mouth, go find that post for me. My EXACT words were "I find these posts suspicious!" Point blank that is it. Bernek, if you say "this post by so-and-so is suspicious" I'm going to put down that you suspect that person. I'm not going to split hairs with you. If you say someone is doing something suspicious, then you find them suspicious. If you want to backpedal later you can backpedal later, it's not going to change the implications of what you said earlier. quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: The one thing I don't get is how you have me high on your suspect list and I am one of the few left in this game that don't think you are a wolf. My darling Bernek, I don't dwell in your head--and if you are a wolf, deception is par for the course. You can say you don't think I am a wolf but that doesn't really mean anything does it? You might be saying that to win my trust. Or to look more cit-like if the baseless paranoids succeeded in wasting the second to last round of this game stringing me up when I was instrumental in GETTING THEM AN EXTRA ROUND. Do you understand? I am not privy to what is going on in your head and I can't afford to assume everything you say is above board. That's why you might be on my suspect list even though you coul be a cit who thinks I am also a cit. Okay? quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: Yes you and GLE are responsible for the interaction and result of the second round lynch. Had the bickering back and forth not happened, GLE might possibly still be alive. Well alive a lot longer than he was. I'm sorry, I'm not going to allow you to eschew your responsibility here. GLE is a marquee player, in WW5 we got the crap kicked out of us with him being a wolf, and once I started to think he was a wolf it was my duty as a cit to fight for all I was worth to get him lynched. I did it, and the argument I put forward was logically sound. It turned out he was a cit, and that is unfortunate. I think looking for someone to "blame" is stupid. If you had thought GLE was a wolf, you certainly would have voted for him. Why are you arguing so hard now about Jaz and Bernie being wolves? Jaz is a good player too. Not as strong as GLE but more of an asset than me. If she gets lynched and is revealed to be a cit should I start blaming you? If you are a cit and you really think she is a wolf, you are doing exactly what you should be doing. I really thought GLE was a wolf, and potentially the most dangerous wolf in the game. There's no way I should have just let him get me lynched and gone quietly on the off chance that I was wrong. I will not apologize. I did the right thing that round based on the information I had. Your blame is misplaced. quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: This is not the first time you have been caught bickering back and forth with someone in regards to their status and they turned out to be a villager. Wow. That is a hell of a thing for you to say, Bernek. You of all people. Remember WW2? You sniping back and forth endlessly with hilikuS such that the seer had to waste TWO rounds checking you both and you were both cits? Pot and kettle? quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: You talk about how I was one who spoke of conviction and that I should try to change my game. And you know what I did just that. Maybe you should try and do the same. Because your play is and has been starting to be detrimental to the villager side. [...] I am referring to when you suspect someone or have an issue with how someone is playing you come at them full force. A lot stronger than other players in this game. Just mu opinion. I argue points and I argue them hard. But I do so only after careful consideration. It's pretty uncharitable to call carefully thought out arguments "bickering". Like you Bernek, and like any other cit, I am often wrong. But my suggestions to you had nothing to do with you being wrong, they had to do with you speaking with conviction where it wasn't warranted. When a player with the acumen of GLE starts making an argument which is holier than swiss cheese, it would be foolish not to argue the case, especially if it looks like the fallacious argument is gaining traction. I'm sorry you feel I was not doing what I should have been doing. quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: Now if Jaz turns out not to be a wolf, then there will be 2 wolves in 6 in the GLE pile. Most likely I will have to be the wolves next kill as they wouldn't want to cut that pile any shorter. Bernek, for the third time, you think Jaz might have been a wolf separating herself from the two piles. Revenger also didn't vote in either pile. How is it that he continually escapes mention? __________________ -- PlasteredDragon A.K.A. Chuck Seggelin *** Sagewood Studios * My Flickr Photostream * My Blog ***
koodkkslis Member	posted March 02, 2009 09:07 PM posted March 01, 2009 10:28 AM quote: Originally posted by koodkkslis: I switched my vote to bugger, as it might be necessary for me to stay alive. posted March 01, 2009 10:34 AM quote: Originally posted by MeddlingMage: The Players Bernek ~ Bugger Plastered Dragon ~ Bugger Bugger ~ kood revenger ~ kood Thanos ~ Bugger Jazaray ~ Bernek Our_Benefactors ~ Bernek BernieB ~ kood koodkkslis ~ Bugger Caitiri ~ kood ~MM quote: Originally posted by PlasteredDragon: Seems to me if this was a lifesaving vote, it was awfully preemptive. Had I been trying to guess where the undeclareds would go, I would have expected Rev to go with you, Cait to probably vote for ?Bugger?, Thanos to vote for Bernek. I don't believe you kood. 6 minutes is an awful long time. I realize that you can't verify exactly when I PM-ed MM my vote but I can tell you it was the same time I posted that. quote: Originally posted by PlasteredDragon: I'm supposed to be so smart that instead of publicly trashing Bernek's argument and going after you, I vote for the wolf leader knowing that I seem to have at least one follower in the crowd when there are less votes on the wolf leader than there are on you? Yeah that's a clever sac play. Genius, really, I'll have to remember that for when I am a wolf so that I can get a Most Valueless Player award. I'll give you that one, that would be dumb for you to do if you were a wolf. quote: Originally posted by PlasteredDragon: Shall I patronize you now and tell you that you are better than to overlook such an obvious point? If you'd like. Given the current discussion it seems like the thing to do. quote: Originally posted by PlasteredDragon: Now you are simply standing there and going "I admit I have no reason to call for PD's lynch. We need to lynch PD." There are a number of very good reasons not to lynch me, and you are ignoring or dismissing all of those, and you don't have any good reasons left to lynch me, and apparently you are ignoring that too. I admitted that that using the fact that you and OB were joined at the hip and not discussing each other as a poor argument. Which it was, I made an oversight and I am fine admitting that I made a mistake. I'm human, get over it. quote: Originally posted by PlasteredDragon: Your argument fails in so many ways. Let's assume you are a cit, why can't I be the "next wagon" bugger is trying to set up? Why can't BernieB be the "next wagon"? I think this doesn't occur to you because you are not a cit. You argue that he wouldn't put 0 wolves on his suspicion list and then you promptly skip the fact that you were his number 1 suspect. quote: Originally posted by Bugger: An updated (and more honest) suspicion list would be: 1. Koodkkslis 2. Plastereddragon 3. BernieB 4. Our_Benefactors- but only if kood turns out a cit. I guess this makes more sense if you know that I am a citizen. If/when I get lynched and you see I am a citizen come back to this argument. 1) I get lynched. You see I am a cit. 2) Our_Benefactors- but only if kood turns out a cit. So if I am a cit he suspects OB. I'll give you that its not necessarily his next target (my overstatement) but he is setting it up for OB to be there for sure. Kood//OB cits implies either PD or Bernie is a wolf. Do you agree with this or do you think none of those four are wolves? quote: Originally posted by PlasteredDragon: I thought putting a wolf as your number one suspect was a dumb move? Now it's risky but with great rewards and you respect my ingenuity for trying to engineer it? Pah. Putting someone as your number one suspect and constructing an argument against them are two different things. You are trying to make apple-marmalade. Sorry PD I don't want any, its gross. Honestly, I wanted to believe you were a cit since the beginning of the game. By no means am I 100% sure that you are a wolf, but I do know that if neither of us is a wolf that its bad news. If you honestly think I am a wolf and Bugger and I created a sac play gone wrong, keeping living in your fantasy land. I WANT to vote for Bernie this round (notice he is my #1) but if I am going to be lynched I have no choice but to vote for the next biggest pile hoping to put it over the top. That happens to be you 3-2 (with my vote) and I am OK with that being you are my #2 suspect. What do you think will happen when I am lynched and revealed as a cit? You don't get lynched? I sure hope not, if this game ends and you are a non-lynched wolf, I will be seriously disappointed.
Jazaray Moderator	posted March 02, 2009 10:49 PM quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: I mean she has not brought too much attention towards herself, I am just not sold that she would come after me and vote me when there is a very big moment early in the game. Bernek, could you please explain this sentence. I've read it over and over again and I seriously can't understand what you mean. I'm not trying to insult you, or call you suspicious for this sentence, I honestly can't understand what you're saying here. Thanos: Where's the explanation that you promised? I've been waiting and waiting.. BernieB: Ok, this is kinda stupid, and really, really flimsy but I'm gonna say it anyways. How do you know Caitiri's name? I'm asking because Cait is relatively unknown, no one really knows him (I thought he was a girl for quite some time, actually). One of the first things that Cait did when we were wolves last game, was tell us to call him Ross... Bernek: You're saying that PD needs to change his game because he makes good arguments? HUH? I'm a little torn on this vote. Bernie's got me suspicious right now, and I'm also suspicious of Kood and of PD. My list goes: Bernie Kood PD So, while I guess I'd rather vote for Bernie, I'm probably going to end up voting for Kood, because I think he's more suspicious than PD. I guess I'm holding my vote for now. Thanks, Jazaray __________________ A Plastered Dragon Original Limerick: There was a nice lassie named Jaz Many wished to have what she has, A delicate face, A soft warm embrace, And a whole lot of bedroom pizzazz. WeedIan: Jazaray is like MOTL's Mom. TheGame sure knows his MOTLers!
PlasteredDragon Member	posted March 02, 2009 11:22 PM quote: Originally posted by koodkkslis: 6 minutes is an awful long time. I realize that you can't verify exactly when I PM-ed MM my vote but I can tell you it was the same time I posted that. Preemptive in that Bugger had more votes on him than you had on you when you switched, not preemptive in the sense that you did it "early". You misunderstood. quote: Originally posted by koodkkslis: I admitted that that using the fact that you and OB were joined at the hip and not discussing each other as a poor argument. Which it was, I made an oversight and I am fine admitting that I made a mistake. I'm human, get over it. Darling kood, the point was not that your argument was bad, the point was that it having collapsed you continued to pursue lynching me and wouldn't admit it had collapsed until the NEXT round--where I am somehow STILL on your list. quote: Originally posted by koodkkslis: I guess this makes more sense if you know that I am a citizen. If/when I get lynched and you see I am a citizen come back to this argument. 1) I get lynched. You see I am a cit. 2) Our_Benefactors- but only if kood turns out a cit. So if I am a cit he suspects OB. I'll give you that its not necessarily his next target (my overstatement) but he is setting it up for OB to be there for sure. I disagree for two reasons. 1. On the surface he is saying that Obie is a wolf only if you are a cit--but Obie is the #4 guy on his list. It is not the either/or scenario you portrayed it as. 2. And more importantly, the wolves ATE Obie. Remember, I've posited that Bugger had voted you as an insurance policy. If you got me lynched, and the crowd got angry at the result, then Bugger doesn't look so bad because he voted you. If you got lynched and revealed as a wolf, then Obie would come off his suspicion list. But look what happened R4N! The wolves ate Obie. I don't think Bugger ever intended to try and lynch Obie, so whatever reason he had him on there, I doubt it was to set him up as the next target. I think that the wolves suspected Obie was the angel. I think they suspected him because of something you noticed. And thinking that he might be the angel, I'm sure that's why they ate him R4N--because they knew he wouldn't be able to save himself. It just seems very unlikely that OB ended up on Bugger's suspicion list because Bugger actually intended to try to lynch Obie the next round. Face it, if the wolves did think Obie was the angel, would Bugger really want to be seen as the player trying to get him lynched? Ultimately I don't know why Obie was on Bugger's suspect list. I can come up with a pretty sketchy guess though: You saw Obie's behavior as a way to get me and publicly announced suspicion of him. Then it occurred to you or one of the other wolves that he might be the angel and should be eaten (whereupon he would be revealed as the angel.) Since that might reflect poorly on you Obie ended up on Bugger's list as well because (a) you are not singled out as the only one to suspect him and (b) why would the wolves openly suspect someone they were about to eat? I can't say for sure why Obie was on Bugger's suspicion list, but if I was going to guess? Damage control. quote: Originally posted by koodkkslis: Kood//OB cits implies either PD or Bernie is a wolf. Do you agree with this or do you think none of those four are wolves? It's impossible to say for sure. The one time I was a wolf I never ever announced suspicion of my fellow wolves... there were always plenty of other people to suspect and paranoia abounded (go back and check if you don't believe me, WW III.2, wolves were me, k illig, and Evil-C.) That said your voting record doesn't speak well of you, your use of truly bad arguments to try and get me killed also doesn't speak well of you. It's certainly conceivable to me that Bugger might have put a wolf on his suspect list. Obviously I don't suspect myself and Obie's been revealed. That leaves you and Bernie, and both of you are on my suspicion list. But I suspect you more than I suspect Bernie--and I think with good reason. Let me put it another way, suppose I had voted to off GLE and PGB, and you had defended me calling me a cit. Then after wiping off those two star players, I suddenly came after you with an argument that was just full of holes. You point the holes out to me and then I simply stop talking about the argument and keep calling for people to lynch you, saying "if I have to die, please lynch Kood", but then instead of dying on my convictions I suddenly change my vote to the same guy you've been suspecting for 4 rounds and he turns out to be a wolf. You're usually a very logical person, would I not be your #1 suspect at that point? See I know you are capable of making a solid argument, so when you don't, well. It definitely makes me sit up and take notice. Now compare that with Bernie's behavior. Slightly OOC this game, I've suspected him off and on the entire game--but other than that? All I have is that he was on Bugger's suspicion list. This could be because Bugger wanted to include a wolf, or it could be because Bugger saw other people suspecting Bernie (like me) and said to himself "hey I should suspect this guy too... maybe momentum will build on him, and if I get questioned about it I can just cite so-and-so's argument." Given the options, it's clear to me that someone behaving as you have looks more suspicious than someone behaving as BernieB has. quote: Originally posted by koodkkslis: Putting someone as your number one suspect and constructing an argument against them are two different things. I don't recall the exact details of his suspicion of you, but obviously if he was going to place an insurance vote for you he needed to say something. I had openly called him on his switcheroo--something else it would be weird for me to do if I was a wolf. You on the other hand didn't call him on his switcheroo (to the best of my recollection) and just stayed focused on me. quote: Originally posted by koodkkslis: Honestly, I wanted to believe you were a cit since the beginning of the game. By no means am I 100% sure that you are a wolf, but I do know that if neither of us is a wolf that its bad news. It's bad news if I get lynched, it's a round wasted. I will seriously be bummed if you get lynched and aren't a wolf. But I think there's enough evidence to suggest you are. But I haven't declared yet. It's important to get this right--although honestly at present I see no better option than you. If I'm wrong at least I know I based my vote on what I observed and my own sober judgement. quote: Originally posted by koodkkslis: What do you think will happen when I am lynched and revealed as a cit? You don't get lynched? I sure hope not, if this game ends and you are a non-lynched wolf, I will be seriously disappointed. If I was a wolf, and I figured on a retaliatory citizenry lynching me in response to a wrongful lynch, I'd probably back off since I am not your #1 suspect. A smart wolf would instead be looking to go with the flow and find a pile to just wagon in--try to keep the heat off the other wolves. But I'm a cit, and I think you are a wolf. What should I do? Voting you seems to be the most appropriate move for me. My primary concern here is getting it wrong. This constant call for me to be lynched for bizarre reasons has grown quite tiresome. If I am wrong this round, I think it is quite likely that next round the mob will lynch me, at which point the cits WILL lose unless there is an angel save. This is why I still have not declared a vote. Because despite the fact that we have an extra round because I voted for Bugger, there are still calls for my head. It seems mind boggling to me but clearly people just don't trust me. I must seem like a very devious person or something. Anyway, if we lose, we lose. At least I know I tried my best, and I can't be held responsible for what everybody else does. If I can look back and say "you made the best decisions you could make with the information you had", then I'll be content, win or lose. And every game I play I learn new things that will hopefully make me a better player next time. __________________ -- PlasteredDragon A.K.A. Chuck Seggelin *** Sagewood Studios * My Flickr Photostream * My Blog ***
BernieB Member	posted March 03, 2009 04:25 AM quote: Originally posted by Jazaray: BernieB: Ok, this is kinda stupid, and really, really flimsy but I'm gonna say it anyways. How do you know Caitiri's name? I'm asking because Cait is relatively unknown, no one really knows him (I thought he was a girl for quite some time, actually). One of the first things that Cait did when we were wolves last game, was tell us to call him Ross... I run the Hoarders Bank, I have each member's name and address so I can send out cards when they come in. Caitiri is a part of that.
PlasteredDragon Member	posted March 03, 2009 07:24 AM I was thinking about what Bernek said... about a split vote (#380) being bad? He's absolutely right. Last night when I went to bed it was on my mind just as I fell asleep. When I was a kid I used to think that if you fell asleep thinking about a problem that you couldn't solve, your subconscious mind would work on it in the night and in the morning the answer would just occur to you. I have no idea if there is any scientific basis to that but I still try it every now and then with varying degrees of success. Well when I woke up this morning it immediately occurred to me that 6 of the eight players had posted what could be considered suspicion lists: code: Top 3 Suspects: Mar-03 06:26 Player First Second Third =============== ===== ====== ===== Bernek77 Jaz BernB ??? BernieB kood Tnos Cait Caitiri ??? ??? ??? Jazaray BernB kood PD koodkkslis BernB PD rev PlasteredDragon kood Bernk BernB revenger ??? ??? ??? Thanos PD Bernk ??? And with so few players and lynches remaining, and so many lists--I could run the Consensus System again to gauge the mood of the populace. With 2 lynches left people would only need to provide their top two suspects, and most of you have done that... even Thanos! For those of you who like to suspect me--I came up with the consensus system and promoted its use in WW6 when I was a confirmed cit. So I plonked in the lists you see above. These are I think an accurate representation of the lists/suspicions people have posted. Okay revenger and Cait didn't supply a suspect list--but that's consistent for Cait and lately it's in revenger's style too. This means that with respect to consensus their opinions are not considered. However remember also that the beauty of the consensus system is that a single player can't have too much effect on it (especially with the large number of players we still have.) It would be better if we had only ONE wolf before running the system, but it's better than nothing. Here's how the players score under the consensus system based on the inputs shown above: 88 - BernieB 80 - Kood 56 - PD 36 - Jaz 32 - Bernek 16 - Thanos 14 - Cait 09 - Revenger According to this, the player suspected most by the widest spread of the populace is BernieB. He may not be everybody's top choice (he's my #3) but he's the player closest to the top of the all lists. He's followed closely by kood, and I run a somewhat distant 3rd. (Snapshot of consensus grid plus results.) Now I have a sneaking suspicion that revenger, having voted kood twice and having said "my suspicions have not changed" would probably list kood as his #1 suspect. Cait also voted kood last round, assuming he'd do it again, that would make kood his #1 suspect. Because the minimum list length is 2, Cait & Revenger, not having provided a full list, would be counted as half-players WRT the computation of the points. If we did count Cait and Rev as half-players listing only kood as their #1 suspect, all the scores remain the same except for kood's who would jump to 112. I don't want to base the results on guesswork though, so I'll leave Cait and revenger out unless they want to provide their top 2 suspects. Anyway, the results the consensus system suggests that if the cits don't want the wolves to be able to have a deciding impact on the outcome of the vote (i.e. a single vote making the decision) then we should collectively vote BernieB this round, and barring any changes in suspicion lists next round, Kood. And if we get a wolf or an angel save, then yours truly in the following round. Obviously I think THAT is a bad idea, but consensus doesn't gauge whether or not the players are right, it just gauges agreement. Based on the stated suspicions of the crowd, the list above is the most agreeable to all concerned. I think Kood is a wolf. 100% certainty? No way. Not even close. My suspicions of BernieB remain very low level. But in the interest of consensus, I would be willing to consider voting BernieB now and wait until next round to vote Kood--but only if the rest of the crowd is willing to follow the consensus system's recommendation. Who knows, something may happen between then and now which would make me suspect kood less, or someone else more? If BernieB actually turned out to be a wolf, that would certainly cause me to rewrite my suspicion list. My suspicions stand in order as before--Kood, Bernek (I'm wavering here), BernieB, Jaz, Cait, revenger, thanos My vote is as yet undeclared. Barring any stunning new developments between now and voting time, I'll probably submit a vote for kood before the day is out, unless the citizenry is willing to follow the consensus system. Cait and revenger? If you guys want to list your top 2 suspects, that would help make the consensus results more accurate... in fact for all players concerned you can actually list your top SIX suspects and each one will have some effect on the consensus computation. If there's no interest in the consensus system based on a general mistrust of me, I understand. I just thought it might help. __________________ -- PlasteredDragon A.K.A. Chuck Seggelin *** Sagewood Studios * My Flickr Photostream * My Blog ***
koodkkslis Member	posted March 03, 2009 09:16 AM PD, If you submit a vote for me I have no choice but to submit one for you being you are the next largest pile. I have to do this to maximize my chances of survival. In an act of diplomacy to try to not divide the population between us I move that we both use your consensus system and vote BernieB. If we vote for each other we effectively negate our votes and just create another divide in the population (knowing 3 votes are already split among us). So, If we vote for Bernie it creates a more spread vote (yes, giving the wolves more influence) but it also allows us to learn more when the lynched persons identity is revealed. My vote is dependent upon yours.
PlasteredDragon Member	posted March 03, 2009 09:53 AM Kood - I'm sure that the results appeal to you for R5 because your #1 suspect is at the top of the list. You don't have to give up much to agree. As I said I'm willing to consider it but it is contingent on the the rest of the population. For now I am holding my vote. __________________ -- PlasteredDragon A.K.A. Chuck Seggelin *** Sagewood Studios * My Flickr Photostream * My Blog ***
Bernek77 Member	posted March 03, 2009 12:17 PM IMO this game is pretty much the wolves if Kood or PD is not a wolf. All the information we needed is from the second round PD/GLE vote. Left are: PD VOTE: Bernek77 Bernek77 VOTE: Jazaray GLE VOTE: BernieB PD Kood Caitri Thanos Revenger Now PD and All I was right about Bugger last round. I know PD it could of just been a double bluff scenario and since we don't have the seer to prove it then I am not exonerated from being a wolf. However, I am not a wolf I am a villager. Again, If we lynch Jaz this round it is back down to 2 piles. I suspect Jaz to be a wolf. Whether she is a wolf or isn't, the next wolf kill should and have to be me. As they wouldn't want to have a lesser pile. Now if Jaz turns out not to be a wolf. The GLE pile is 2 wolves for 6 people. If she is a wolf then the final wolf is in the GLE Pile. It would be bad for the wolves if we lynch Jaz and they don't kill me. This is my reasoning. OK we lynch Jaz and they dont kill me the GLE pile is down to 5 people. Jaz is a wolf we only need to get one, if she isn't we have a 40% chance to grab a wolf. I do not like htis PD and Kood vote. we are too late in the game for another 2 pile vote. We already have one to work off of that can win us this game. Come on people let's not ruin the opportunity that is in front of us. PD your comment of I don't care if we win that you played your best bothers me. How can you sit here and say that. This ****es me off! In other games especially mafia, we would eliminate a middle ground and go after the better odds. Let's do this in this game. We can still win! Jaz, my statement was that you haven't brought any aggressive attention your way from anyone other than myself. I was referring to the round where it was GLE and PD. You voted me and right now that is a pivotal point right now in this game. That point of the game it should of only of been 2 piles. You have me bothered that you left yourself on a whim and kept out. Right now it could be 2 piles and I could tell everyone to vote for me to show I am a villager and there would be a 33% chance of nabbing a wolf next vote. With the 2 of us only ones left out of that pile it is a good spot for the wolves to hide. If we eliminate you then the wolves have to take me out. Otherwise the narrow the gle pile down to 5 and that hurts them. I don't get where players can't see how simple this is. __________________ How many times do I have to have sex with your mom before you realize we have something special. 2007-08 MOTL Fantasy Hockey Champ! 2008 MOTL Fantasy Football Champ!
PlasteredDragon Member	posted March 03, 2009 01:26 PM Dammit, I was hoping to avoid having to run damage control, but this has got to be pinched off. Bernek, it's time for you to stop instructing the wolves. This is something else we've talked about--if there's something incredibly obvious and other players don't seem to be getting it, it COULD be because they don't want it broadcast to the wolves. Will you please THINK before you post? Remember WW III.1 where I as the angel was trying to save your butt and you kept blabbing about "pay attention and see if someone starts defending someone because they might be the angel"? For Pete's sake if you are playing on the cit's side will you STOP giving information away to the flipping wolves? SHUT UP! quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: IMO this game is pretty much the wolves if Kood or PD is not a wolf. All the information we needed is from the second round PD/GLE vote. Two strong players have told you "this doesn't make any sense" and it hasn't occurred to you that maybe they don't want you exposing a trap that the wolves could step in? Fermer la bouche s'il vous plait... quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: ... GLE VOTE: ... Revenger For the FOURTH time--Revenger didn't vote GLE. Revenger DIDN'T VOTE IN R2. He came out afterwards (#228) and said "I would have voted for Bernek" but really he can say anything he wants after the fact right? The piles that round were PD, GLE, and RANDOM, and RANDOM had THREE players in it, Jaz who voted for you, and Vengie and Ecto who didn't vote. quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: Again, If we lynch Jaz this round it is back down to 2 piles. I suspect Jaz to be a wolf. Whether she is a wolf or isn't, the next wolf kill should and have to be me. As they wouldn't want to have a lesser pile. No, it's still 3 piles because you apparently missed the last 3 tmes somebody pointed out to you that Revenger wasn't in either pile. Jaz is a strong player and the only member of the citizenry that suspects her is you--based on reasoning that is flawed in a way that has been subtly pointed out to you multiple times. I'm not voting Jaz this round... she's my #5 suspect and on the consensus system she's nowhere near the top 2. I'm already being asked to wait a round to for my #1 suspect, and being asked to vote my #3 right now. In the meantime the top three consensus suspects are ALL in the R2 GLE pile that the wolves may not shave down at all now thanks to your sage wisdom. Do me a favor? DON'T RESPOND. quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: It would be bad for the wolves if we lynch Jaz and they don't kill me. If we HAD lynched Jaz, hopefully the angel would have figured that out and tried to save you tonight. Now that you've alerted everyone that you are the wolves best kill, we can pretty much rule that angel save out. Anything else you'd like to discuss with the wolves? I'm sure they are very grateful for the advice. quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: I do not like htis PD and Kood vote. we are too late in the game for another 2 pile vote. We already have one to work off of that can win us this game. We are trying to work it out, that's what the consensus post above was about. Did you read it? Because I said I would agree to vote BernieB instead of Kood, at least this round, in the interest of not splitting the populace. But I would only do it if a significant portion of the populace agreed. As I recall BernieB is on your suspect list and he is in the R2-GLE pile that we need to reduce the size of. quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: Come on people let's not ruin the opportunity that is in front of us. PD your comment of I don't care if we win that you played your best bothers me. How can you sit here and say that. This ***es me off! Hands up all players who think I don't take this game seriously enough. LOL. Bernek, you are a bull in a china shop. Settle down. First of all, maybe I'm acting resigned and complacent for a reason. Maybe it's a very good reason that affects the wolves' behavior. Shush. And secondly, win or lose it is a game, if* we lose I'm going to still be proud if I played to the best of my ability. quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: Jaz, my statement was that you haven't brought any aggressive attention your way from anyone other than myself. I was referring to the round where it was GLE and PD. You voted me and right now that is a pivotal point right now in this game. You can't call someone suspicious because you are the only person that finds them suspicious. LOL. Yes Jaz voted you after stating if she had to choose between GLE and PD, she would choose to vote for GLE but didn't want to make that choice. Revenger said if he had voted, he would have voted for you. quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: That point of the game it should of only of been 2 piles. You have me bothered that you left yourself on a whim and kept out. Right now it could be 2 piles and I could tell everyone to vote for me to show I am a villager and there would be a 33% chance of nabbing a wolf next vote. First, please stop saying "should of"--it doesn't mean anything. You might say "I should have the steak and eggs" but you wouldn't say "I should OF the steak and eggs." Have is a verb, OF is a preposition. So if you wouldn't say "I should OF the steak and eggs" then you shouldn't say "I should OF eaten the steak and eggs." When you hear someone saying "should of" they are actually saying "should've", AKA "should HAVE". Secondly, it is not for you to dictate what the piles should have been in R2, and Jaz is not alone in being in neither of the big piles. Revenger was in neither of the big piles and has stated that if he had voted, he would have voted for you. Since ecto (R.I.P.) also was not in the PD or GLE pile that round, Jaz's vote that round suddenly doesn't look so isolated and special. Thirdly, PLEASE stop telling the wolves about traps that they might step in next round? For all you know they might have been completely unaware and you could have saved your big theory for when it was even clearer who the wolves are. quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: I don't get where players can't see how simple this is. Your notion about the process of elimination in the R2-GLE pile is simple, and it might have made a good device to entrap and kill a wolf next round. What isn't simple is the way you chose to express the idea. Finally, your notion about Jaz being the only R2 player not in the PD or GLE pile is wrong. Okay? Please stop saying that--it isn't true, it makes you look suspicious, and it might give the wolves an angle to play you. Please, Bernek, enough already. __________________ -- PlasteredDragon A.K.A. Chuck Seggelin *** Sagewood Studios * My Flickr Photostream * My Blog ***
Bernek77 Member	posted March 03, 2009 01:45 PM PD see you keep saying about the instructing the wolves about how to play correct? So are you finally sold that I am not a wolf? Cause how I see it is IMO for you to say such things would indicate that you have doubt that I am a wolf now. It is my opinion that revenger is not a wolf. A wolf IMO would not miss a vote. So that is why I have him in the GLE pile. You know what you can sit here and say what you want but this is the best play to get the villagers to win. You don't want to listen to me then fine. You want to make this a two person round then fine. Voting you! You apparently don't want me voting off Jaz for some reason then let's find out if your not a wolf protecting another wolf. __________________ How many times do I have to have sex with your mom before you realize we have something special. 2007-08 MOTL Fantasy Hockey Champ! 2008 MOTL Fantasy Football Champ!
PlasteredDragon Member	posted March 03, 2009 02:19 PM quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: PD see you keep saying about the instructing the wolves about how to play correct? So are you finally sold that I am not a wolf? Cause how I see it is IMO for you to say such things would indicate that you have doubt that I am a wolf now. And after having stated that you don't think I'm a wolf, and after saying that you think I am beginning to doubt you are a wolf, you choose to vote for me. Bernek, I really don't want to call you stupid, please stop giving me reasons to do so. Yes, my suspicion of you had been wavering somewhat... I was thinking of dropping you down to my #3 suspect and raising Bernie up as my #2. I mentioned earlier today that my suspicion of you was wavering. Search the page for the word "wavering". quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: It is my opinion that revenger is not a wolf. A wolf IMO would not miss a vote. So that is why I have him in the GLE pile. O.M.G. Are you seriously saying that? Caitiri was a wolf last game and he missed the R1 vote. Montague was a wolf the game before that and he missed the R2 vote. Of course wolves would miss votes, if you have say, two cits going at each other and a wolf didn't want to get caught up in either pile, the wolf might choose to miss the vote. And secondly, you don't think Rev is a wolf so you are just choosing to move him out of the pile Jaz is in and you are choosing to misrepresent his vote? If that's not the dumbest thing I've heard all week I don't know what is. o You claimed Jaz defended Bugger -- she didn't. o You claimed she was the only player not in the R2 GLE or PD pile -- she wasn't, there were three. o And now you are admitting to essentially lying about the voting record because you "just don't think" revenger is a wolf? Well I'm certainly not dropping you down to #3 now! Holy smokes Bernek! WTH are you thinking? quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: You know what you can sit here and say what you want but this is the best play to get the villagers to win. You don't want to listen to me then fine. One of us isn't listening, but it isn't me. quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: You want to make this a two person round then fine. Hey Bernek, did you read the post about consensus? I was trying to find a way to NOT make this a two-person round because I *agreed with you* that a split vote was a bad idea. Feel free to catch up any time. quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: Voting you! You apparently don't want me voting off Jaz for some reason then let's find out if your not a wolf protecting another wolf. Bernek, you can vote Jaz if you want to, but I am not going to because your argument against her is a pile of crap for reasons already demonstrated. As noted earlier, pointing out where your argument falls down is not tantamount to defending the person your argument is directed against. But apparently you are so in love with your own ideas you are now going to stamp your little feet and vote for someone you've stated you think is a cit simply because that person has pointed out serious holes in your logic. The words you were looking for were "thank you", not "voting you". Way to go Bernek, we didn't have enough challenges... now we have to put up with a peurile tantrum from you. I'll note you down as voting for me in the tracker. For those of you who are sitting there shaking your heads in disbelief at this turn of events, despite Bernek's bizarre behavior, I still think there is merit in the consensus system. I'm going to write off Bernek's baffling 180 here to him not reading or not understanding the consensus post and getting emotional about it. Is anybody else willing to vote with the consensus system this round? I am, and so is Kood, that's two. Bernek's going to vote someone he thinks he is a cit because he can't get his way. How about the rest of you? Without the consensus, it will be the split round that Bernek theoretically wanted to avoid, because I will vote Kood and Kood will vote me. I've stated that I'll vote the consensus if the populace goes along (by which I mean, enough to make a majority.) Jaz, Cait, Revenger, Thanos--are any of you willing to vote with the consensus? Bernie, I'm going to assume you would not want to since the consensus system has identified you as the optimal target. __________________ -- PlasteredDragon A.K.A. Chuck Seggelin *** Sagewood Studios * My Flickr Photostream * My Blog ***
Bernek77 Member	posted March 03, 2009 02:31 PM No PD your not up for any ideas. You are not willing to listen to me this round. You want things to run your way. O now you agree that the split vote is bad huh. well I would rather have you out of the game and have people who will not shoot down every idea someone throws out there. The problem you have with my idea is you have me number 2 on your suspect list. WHY? O yeah you are on this double bluff kick that you are on every game. get your head out of the clouds, take a step back and see what is happening. Voting Jaz makes much sense! you don't want her out of this game. Why not? IF I was a wolf I would not of drew attention to the pile and sacrificed bugger. I would of did whatever to bring attention to the other pile that was bigger and would of been better to hide. I don't think like you and you don't think like me. So if my posts don't make sense to you they make sense to me. I am not a stupid individual. Don't try and play me like one. Like I said I would rather have you out of this game then sit here and have you defend Jaz without any support. When it was brought about bugger joking around, she didn't come out and initially say his name and defend him. But bringing attention to someone else and saying joking around doesn't mean wolf, is defending him. She drew attention to BernieB and I. All it was, was bernieb and I saying hi. (sup Bernie) She can't come out and completely and utterly try to defend him hard. If he gets caught as a wolf everyone automatically will go after her. She knows that and subtly defended him. Think whatever you want but, that is how I see it. __________________ How many times do I have to have sex with your mom before you realize we have something special. 2007-08 MOTL Fantasy Hockey Champ! 2008 MOTL Fantasy Football Champ! [Edited 1 times, lastly by Bernek77 on March 03, 2009]
PlasteredDragon Member	posted March 03, 2009 03:42 PM quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: No PD your not up for any ideas. You are not willing to listen to me this round. You want things to run your way. I've listened to everything you've said. Some of it I agreed with when you brought it up the first time and I subtly hinted to you that I got it. You've insisted on spelling it out to the wolves in a manner which is unhelpful. I have also disagreed with you on a number of key points, and if you'd stop acting like an emotional basket case, you would see that. You said that jaz defended Bugger, it's proven in the post history that she didn't, you've stated that she was "the only player" to stay out of the big R2 piles, it's proven in the vote history she wasn't. Those were your biggest points against Jaz, and they both failed. It's not my fault they failed Bernek, you either didn't think them through or you are being deliberately misleading. All I did was point out to you that they failed. If I wasn't listening to you, do you think I would bother talking about it so much with you? I don't like arguing with you because you have a penchant for doing exactly what you are doing now. It was because I was listening to you that I proposed running the consensus system. Clearly you haven't read it so I am going to have to go dig it up for you: quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: I was thinking about what Bernek said... about a split vote (#380) being bad? He's absolutely right. Last night when I went to bed it was on my mind just as I fell asleep. That was 7:24 AM this morning MOTL time... before your first post today. Get it? I proposed running the consensus system because it would help the cits avoid a split vote--in essence, I'm trying to run things YOUR way. And that's the thing that bugs me the most about what you had to say here. The way consensus WORKS is it takes what EVERYBODY WANTS and finds the solution that appeals to the MOST people--not what I want, what MOST PEOPLE want. How is that running things MY way? Kood is my #1 suspect. Without consensus I'm going to vote him and there will be a split vote. Kood has diplomatically stated that if I go with the consensus vote he will too. But the consensus vote is pointless if most of the citizenry doesn't follow it. If you don't want to follow it FINE. Then you are going to have a split vote this round. You aren't going to cajole the whole populace into voting for Jaz on an argument that has two huge holes in it. When I fed everybody's suspicion lists into the consensus calculation Jaz came out in 4th place. She simply isn't suspected by most of the population. The fact that I don't suspect her much is the expected case, since most of the population doesn't. That's not me running the show Bernek, it's just you not getting to run the show. I'm sorry it bothers you so much. quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: O now you agree that the split vote is bad huh. 7:24 AM Bernek. The reason I ran the consensus calculation in the first place. Feel free to catch up any time. quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: well I would rather have you out of the game and have people who will not shoot down every idea someone throws out there. Bernek, darling, suppose I said you must be a wolf because your name begins with "B". And then when you pointed out that there is a serious problem with that argument I said "well I am going to vote you, you are just shooting down every idea I throw out." I critique arguments, it's what I do. I told you yesterday I thought you were on to something with the R2-GLE pile, but the part about Jaz didn't work. I explained to you multiple times why it didn't work but you are clearly unimpressed with the explanation. That's okay. I'm sorry you seem to think that the two other people in the same pile as Jaz R2 "don't count" and that she "defended Bugger" when she never did. You know? You could be right, Jaz could be a wolf. But the argument you've given simply doesn't hold water and that's all there is to it. The part about her defending bugger isn't true. And the part about her being the only one not in the R2 GLE or PD piles is also not true--and if being in the RANDOM pile that round makes her suspicious, it makes revenger equally suspicious. That's just straightforward logic, B. If you have something else to add, please do so, but otherwise there's simply no compelling evidence that makes Jaz more suspicious than say, Bernie, or me, or you. So if there's nothing else to add, your argument isn't as strong as you thought it was, and that's okay. We all make mistakes, we all overlook things. I overlooked the R2 GLE pile altogether until you pointed it out and I thought it was a good piece of information. quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: The problem you have with my idea is you have me number 2 on your suspect list. WHY? My problem with your idea doesn't have anything to do with your position on my suspicion list. You are on the list because it is conceivable to me that you could have engineered a sac play with Bugger. You are #2 on my list because I think it more likely that Kood engineered a sac play with Bugger. You should know that because I spelled it out when I announced the list. I was thinking about dropping you to #3 until a few minutes ago when you tried to misrepresent the R2 votes and went bonkers. quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: O yeah you are on this double bluff kick that you are on every game. get your head out of the clouds, take a step back and see what is happening. Voting Jaz makes much sense! you don't want her out of this game. Why not? Yes it is clear you are in love with the idea of a R5 Jaz vote. That doesn't mean it is the right thing to do. The reason I am not voting for Jaz is that you haven't articulated a reason that makes her more suspicious to me than Kood, you, or BernieB. Your conviction is not a reason. It's not about me "not wanting Jaz out of the game". It's about not wanting to make a mistake--I've been doing a lot of thinking here and I'm not going to vote someone just because Bernek thinks it is a really really good idea. Just because I disagree with you it doesn't mean I am defending Jaz or protecting Jaz--you aren't in my head and you can't read my mind--and if you think you can you are fooling yourself. You made an argument. It has holes in it. I pointed them out and I am not convinced. Take a moment and consider that you might be wrong. There are 5 players in the R2 GLE pile--BB, KOO, PD, THA, CAI. REV is NOT in that pile. REV is in the random pile with JAZ. Then there is you in the PD pile. I know you claim not to be a wolf but I can't take that as fact, nor would you if our situations were reversed. If we lynch Jaz and she's not a wolf, we still have six players to pick from next round, which is a 33% chance. However if we pick you and you're not a wolf, we're in exactly the same boat. In order to vote Jaz there has to be a compelling reason, and something more compelling than "Bernek really thinks so." quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: IF I was a wolf I would not of drew attention to the pile and sacrificed bugger. I would of did whatever to bring attention to the other pile that was bigger and would of been better to hide. If you were a wolf you would have done whatever the wolf leader told you to do. The fact that you drew attention to the R2 PD pile is definitely a mitigating factor, but it doesn't let you off the hook. Like you I voted bugger twice, and I suspected him all game, and you aren't letting me off the hook are you? quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: Like I said I would rather have you out of this game then sit here and have you defend Jaz without any support. sigh pointing out the holes in your argument is not defending Jaz. I don't know if you are a cit or not Bernek, so you argument is all I have to judge you by. If you make an argument for another player and I think it's a bad argument it doesn't automatically mean I am "defending" whoever you are accusing for nefarious reasons. You accused Jaz of defending bugger when she didn't, and now you are accusing me of defending Jaz when I didn't. quote: Originally posted by Bernek77: When it was brought about bugger joking around she didn't come out and initially say his name and defend him but bringing attention to someone else and saying joking around doesn't mean wolf is defending him. Quote the post. I'm tired of listening to you put words in people's mouths and what you wrote above is pretty hard to decipher. Show me the post where Jaz defends Bugger. If you are trying to characterize the statement "joking around does not necessarily make someone a wolf" as defending Bugger, you are mistaken. It's certainly passing judgement on a weak argument--but that's all. It appears you are unable to tell the difference. If you said "I think Pepsi is evil", and I said "Why", and you said "Because it's too sweet", and I said "I don't think that necessarily mean's it's evil" I am not defending Pepsi. I'm simply saying "I am unconvinced by this argument." You seem to operate under the notion that if something is compelling to you it must be compelling to everyone, and if it isn't then they are somehow up to something. You could just be wrong. I don't think you've made a compelling case for Jaz. If you want to call that "defending Jaz", knock yourself out. You're wrong to do so, but it's clear you don't care what I think. But at this point you've put it all out there for the rest of the populace to see, so if they are with you on the matter, they'll all vote for Jaz. I don't see any reason to carry on this conversation with you, you aren't listening and you won't consider ideas other than your own today. __________________ -- PlasteredDragon A.K.A. Chuck Seggelin *** Sagewood Studios * My Flickr Photostream * My Blog *** [Edited 1 times, lastly by PlasteredDragon on March 03, 2009]
PlasteredDragon Member	posted March 03, 2009 03:48 PM This should make it easier for you to find the post where Jaz defended Bugger, Bernek. Jazaray's post history: 016. Feb-13 08:17 PM: signed up - (ref: nobody) 053. Feb-15 06:48 PM: ryan's mafia game - (ref: Jaz) 062. Feb-15 09:08 PM: ryan's mafia game - (ref: Jaz) 100. Feb-18 11:06 AM: votes AGM - Amie's pick - (ref: AGM, Jaz) 218. Feb-22 06:05 PM: Would vote GLE if she had to. But doesn't want to. Votes Bernek. - (ref: Bernk, BernB, GLE, Jaz, Liq, PD, Tnos) 226. Feb-22 08:34 PM: Re: Thanos#222 - why'd Bernek's post cause switch to GLE? - (ref: Bernk, GLE, Jaz, Tnos) 244. Feb-23 06:28 PM: Requests PD list all posts by Bugger, Bernek, PD, & GLE. - (ref: Bernk, Bug, GLE, Jaz, PD) 247. Feb-23 06:50 PM: Re: PD#245 - separate - (ref: Jaz, PD) 252. Feb-24 12:15 AM: To Bernek: you are joking around like Bugger, why is this not suspicious? To BernieB: why those three people? - (ref: Bernk, BernB, Bug, Jaz) 272. Feb-24 12:41 PM: Rereading old posts didn't help much. But now suspect PGB. - (ref: Bernk, Jaz, OB, PD, PGB, rev) 289. Feb-25 04:59 PM: Votes PGB. - (ref: Cait, ecto, Jaz, PD, PGB) 296. Feb-25 06:52 PM: Re: PGB#294 - earlier post not compelling, appears baseless. - (ref: GLE, Jaz, PD, PGB) 314. Feb-26 11:15 PM: Re: Kood#313 - your theory is lame. - (ref: Jaz, OB, PD) 329. Feb-27 09:24 PM: Jaz's Bernek theory. - (ref: Bernk, Bug, GLE, Jaz, kood, PD) 340. Feb-28 07:48 PM: affirms bernek vote - (ref: Bernk, Bug, Jaz) 358. Mar-01 05:46 PM: Re: Bernek#346 - I was wrong, it happens. - (ref: Bernk, Bug, Jaz) 366. Mar-02 08:52 AM: Re: Bernek#364 - untrue, please DO check it out. Re: Bernie#363 - explain basic stats. - (ref: Bernk, BernB, Bug, Jaz) 386. Mar-02 10:49 PM: Suspicion list. - (ref: Bernk, BernB, Cait, Jaz, kood, PD, Tnos) __________________ -- PlasteredDragon A.K.A. Chuck Seggelin *** Sagewood Studios * My Flickr Photostream * My Blog ***
PlasteredDragon Member	posted March 03, 2009 04:09 PM Alright, this has been a wasted day. Clearly nobody is buying into the consensus system, and Bernek's having a hissy fit so it looks like this is my last round. I think my argument against kood is a good one. I think Bernek's argument that another split round should have been avoided this round was also a good one. However nobody is posting anything and votes are due in two hours. Since nobody seems to be impressed with the consensus system I have no choice but to cast my vote for Kood. Thanos was going to vote for me anyway, and Kood will now vote for me. Bernek is voting me because he can't bully me into voting for Jaz so that's 3 votes for me and two for Kood. Assuming revenger votes Kood (can't say for sure) and assuming Cait votes Kood (can't say for sure), that's 4 for Kood and 3 for me. So the power to decide this round has been put squarely in the hands of Jaz and BernieB. I'm not happy with this outcome, but I don't see any other options right now. I'm going home to my family now, my kid got braces today and she wants Dad to see them before bedtime. I will check in again around 8:15 PM eastern. If nobody has bought into the consensus, my vote for kood will stand. If a majority have agreed to follow the consensus, I'll also follow the consensus and take my vote off kood. If I don't make it to R6, good luck cits. __________________ -- PlasteredDragon A.K.A. Chuck Seggelin *** Sagewood Studios * My Flickr Photostream * My Blog *** [Edited 1 times, lastly by PlasteredDragon on March 03, 2009]
MeddlingMage Member	posted March 03, 2009 04:38 PM quote: Originally posted by Liq, in the mafia thread: Votes due Tonight Get them in ~MM __________________ [Help me PIMP my Slide!] [Join Us,or DIE!][Refs][Me] [Werewolf 3!] I am MeddlingMage...YOUR Motl Survivor 11 Champion and 2007 Captain N award winner, and I approve this siggy!
Caitiri Member	posted March 03, 2009 05:02 PM Alright, so not a ton has happened since I was last on here aside from PD and Bernek arguing. Right now my top two suspects are Bernie and kood. If people want to do the consensus thing I'm alright with it, since it basically follows how I would place my vote anyway. If it's going to come down to PD and kood, then my vote is for kood since I find him more suspicious. I never like when it comes down to people basically having to choose between two players though. It always feels to me that we could easily be missing something by focusing on the two, and if both of them are citizens then we're screwed either way. I cautioned against it when it was GLE and PD, I'm doing the same now. But if that's how it's going to turn out then I will be voting for the one I find most suspicious. -Caitiri __________________ Dark Ritual count: 746
koodkkslis Member	posted March 03, 2009 05:09 PM I will switch my vote to Bernie.
Jazaray Moderator	posted March 03, 2009 05:53 PM Sorry guys, I was away today. I'm fine with the consensus vote. Sending in my vote for BernieB Thanks, Jazaray __________________ A Plastered Dragon Original Limerick: There was a nice lassie named Jaz Many wished to have what she has, A delicate face, A soft warm embrace, And a whole lot of bedroom pizzazz. WeedIan: Jazaray is like MOTL's Mom. TheGame sure knows his MOTLers!

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