quote:

---

Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:

AFA me being nicer to you when I am a wolf? You are no doubt thinking of WW7, and you did make some uncanny guesses, but it was also the WWs strategy that game to try and keep you in until the end so that the population would have a popular target to vote for, and because you are useful to the wolves, so I had to stroke you a little.

---

Are you confusing me with Bernek or are you trying to respond to my post?

__________________
Originally posted by GLE:
And man... what happens when we get past 300 GDs? Will we need a second MOTL?

And then past 300 MOTLs... we'll need a new internet!

quote:

---

Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
@Bernek: if Liq's behavior is destructive to the game, I'm going to point it out in the game. Consider his actions, continually tweaking me, refusing to comment on his OOC behavior, etc. etc. etc. Now do you seriously think the seer hasn't noticed this and isn't figuring on spending a night checking Liq? If Liq's a cit he's basically wasting the seer's scry on purpose.

AFA me being nicer to you when I am a wolf? You are no doubt thinking of WW7, and you did make some uncanny guesses, but it was also the WWs strategy that game to try and keep you in until the end so that the population would have a popular target to vote for, and because you are useful to the wolves, so I had to stroke you a little.

In this game?

Your argument stinks. Jaz didn't "attack" ryan, she asked him one simple question about his post. She marked him as a suspect, and she hasn't commented on his response. Some attack. He has two votes on him and NONE of them are Jaz.

This is just like you Bernek, you lapdog the strong players incessantly and it blinds you to when they actually appear guilty. I warned you about it last game and here you are again defending Liq, defending ryan, and going after the people who've levelled accusations at them.

Liq's out of character by his own yardstick, has been called on it multiple times, and refuses to comment on it.

ryan's claiming to confuse two very different players in a manner totally at odds with his skill level.

But this doesn't interest you at all.

I'm not surprised.

{SUMMARY: torpedoing Bernek's argument}

---

say whtever it is you want. I have played with Liq a lot longer than you, I will stand by a better player than you. You like to argue back and forth. I am not going to do that with you. I have read the posts and this is where I stand. Draw your own conclusions as you may. You have gotten rid of GLE twice now and you were wrong. In fact you are wrong about motly everything you say. Have fun, play your game and I will play mine!

__________________
How many times do I have to have sex with your mom before you realize we have something special.

quote:

---

Originally posted by hilikuS:
Are you confusing me with Bernek or are you trying to respond to my post?

---

But Bernek's argument about Jaz "attacking" ryan does stink, and I stand by my assertion--Bernek lapdogs strong players to his own detriment. He defended Liq last game when Liq was a wolf, and no doubt will defend Liq the next time Liq is a wolf.

As much as I think commenting on destructive play is an important in-game topic, I think fawning and fanboyism is not.

@Bernek: LOL. Yes Bernek, I'm as wrong more often than I am right. Just like everybody else. This was covered earlier in game in a discussion with your alter-ego, fwybwed.

quote:

---

Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
...Now, does being able to frame an argument well mean I'm more likely to be right? No of course not, and I've never claimed otherwise. It's a little amusing for you to point out "look at this example where PD was wrong". Every single player in this game is wrong more often than they are right. So what? Of course I'm wrong, and wrong often...

---

PD: Liq's OOC.
Bernek: Don't care, PD is wrong a lot.
PD: But Liq's OOC by doing something he himself said he doesn't do just last game.
Bernek: Don't care, PD is wrong a lot.
PD: But if you just go and read what he said--
Bernek: Don't care, PD is wrong a lot.

Everyone is wrong a lot Bernek, yourself included--that's a nonargument. This is precisely why arguments need to be decided on the merits of the argument rather than on the gurglings of one's intestines.

quote:

---

Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by hilikuS:
Are you confusing me with Bernek or are you trying to respond to my post?

---

[/QUOTE]

Say what you will, I don't like Jaz's behavior up to this point. I may have used the wrong terms of attacked ryan but calling him out is just one in the same. You changed your vote 3 times Rd 1. to me that is also suspicious and OOC! There like that. Bye PD hope to hear from you soon.

__________________
How many times do I have to have sex with your mom before you realize we have something special.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Liq:
Then there's the standard PD accusation. 4 paragraphs of "lite" level accusation with a summary paragraph on current game state.

To me this post is 2 different PD posts mashed into one.

One long winded PD post (x4) PLUS a standard PD accusation post (a bit on the lite side)

---

Is this longer than usual? Yes. Is it anywhere near a valid tell? Hell no. The last time PD made a post like this was in WW9, towards the end of R3. He listed each player, their wolf weight, multiple quotes, etc etc etc. When someone does something both when they're a wolf and when they're a cit it's effectively a null-tell without anything stronger to back it up. You know that.

Ryan: That entire response was me guessing at your thoughts. The "better wagon" is not my own thinking, but the hypothetical "better for a wolf" thinking.

HilikuS: You put PD and Ryan as your top two suspects for yelling at Liq and you ignore this:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bugger:

Frankly, QFT. When I first started playing this game, actually even before that, I knew about Liq's reputation. He got captain N. He broke mafia. He was the strongest player on MOTL. You can tell I believed that stuff because I gave the order to kill him R0 in my first game.
I knew that Liq had an ego, a big one, but I figured that someone who had an ego that big would at least have the play skill to back it up.

If the last eight games of werewolf are any indication, such is most definitely not the case. As if it weren't bad enough to have an ego as massive and ravenous as his, Liq really doesn't have the playskill to match it. Liq, you're of absolutely no help to the cits regardless of your team. You don't listen to anyone else's ideas, you insult our intelligence, you spend more than half of your gameplay time stroking your ego, and I haven't once seen anything remotely impressive from you. You make contradictions all the friggin' time- one round you tell us you post everything in your mind, the next you try to tell us with a straight face that you only divulge that which you feel important. Every other sentence of yours, it seems, is spent talking about your "mafia strategy ver. 4.3.1" or some other such pretentious bull. You never contribute unless you want to, and god forbid anyone ever try to disagree. You can't make an argument worth a damn (you proved that pretty well last game), and if PD is accurate in his assessment that you only plan for when you're a wolf then you're an even more massive narcissist than I could have imagined. I know it probably burns you up to hear me say this (snotty little runt that I am, right?), but honestly? I would say GLE, PD, and ryan are all much better players than you are. See, they actually contribute.

Also, I mentioned insulting intelligence- stop evading the question. You said you never switch your vote, but you clearly did so in R1. Why?

{SUSPECT: Liq (refusing to answer question)}

I don't really have the time or the energy to devote to a seriously in-depth analysis right now as I'm in the middle of exams (and I'm going to go right back to studying after I post this), so for now I'm voting Liq.

---

{SUSPECT: HilikuS (inconsistency in suspicion targets and explanations)}

Ugh, I have to go so sorry for the truncated post. I'll look over the entire thread this afternoon and hopefully put up a post (note: this might, and probably will, mean a change in suspicions/vote) when I've let things percolate in my head. I also should start sketching out the wolf profile, I haven't gotten on that yet

EDIT: Wow, put me in failjail until I redo my last long post... Apparently I have Bugger confused with Ryan. I'll have to rethink all of that I guess.

My comments about PD still remain consistent with what I was thinking, but the stuff about Ryan isn't. For those of you who actually took that seriously, I apologize. Gotta retool that part.

HERE IS THE REDONE VERSION OF MY PREVIOUS POST, NOW WITH LESS ME BEING CONFUSED.

quote:

---

Originally posted by hilikuS:
I really think this feud with Liq should stop. Not only that, but this crap about who's a good player who's a bad player and how everybody should strive for some common playstyle as a goal. It's not only crap, but it's derailing the thread completely. The past page seems to be almost all about this garbage, and it clearly doesn't pertain to catching wolves at all.

If you guys think Liq is a crappy player, tell him in between games, talk to him on AIM or something. During the game is where you actually play the game.

Not to mention Liq has been helpful. I'd say about as helpful as he always has. The thing is, with everybody else ranting and raving about how people should play and who sucks and who's ZOMG awesome at this game, there's not much to comment on that's worthwhile. Liq is a minimalist when it comes to this game. The way I see it, he posts what's important in his view, and doesn't coat it with his opinions or whatever. This way, everybody else can get a clear, and hopefully unbiased view of the evidence. I personally think it's more helpful than pages of analysis, because I prefer to take what you all find and hash it out myself. I think that's how it should be. The more points of view you can come up with, the better. The more ideas there are on the table to work with.

It's ironic that everybody does 50x more talking for Liq than he does for himself, but that's how it's been. I think his posts should be viewed with the same grain of salt as everybody else's. No need to get butthurt because he doesn't like your tracker, or because you're not sure what his posts mean.

With all that said, I'd like to move onto my current ideas.

I think the crap about Liq could possibly be an intentional way to derail the thread, and deviate the citizens from making good decisions about wolves. I see that there are now 2 players who are on Liq about his stuff. The latest has been Bugger. Now, I wouldn't put PD on this play because he's regularly annoyed by Liq. So his behavior seems pretty normal here. It's definitely not out of the question that he could be using it as a ploy, but it's definitely not out of character for him to be irritated by Liq. Bugger on the other hand seems to have joined the fray just recently.

What I'm getting at is, I think one of these two is deliberately trying to make this play.

Bugger: He is regarded as a solid player by the consensus. At least from what I've seen. Seeing as how I misread him as Ryan somehow (not that you guys are the same in anyway, just a flat out brain fart on my part) I've got to say that I'm not too confident on my read of him. His comments against Liq seem to be pretty sincere as far as him just being like wtf Liq. What I am thinking is if Bugger is a wolf, given how things went down, that he would actually clear PD. Bugger has been talking about who's a good, bad player, or whatever from the start of the game. So if he has been trying to deviate the conversation, he's been doing it from the beginning of the game. So if he turns out to be a wolf, I think the Liq vs PD thing is completely separate. Basically, Bugger just figured he could try and fuel it some more to keep it going as long as possible. This would clear PD because in my mind, he's just genuinely annoyed by Liq.

To summarize a bit, I think that Bugger could be trying to deviate the conversation in order to keep us off the scent of the wolves.

PD: PD specializes in information and number crunching. For me, his whole playstyle involves around grabbing as much info as possible, and reporting it. The idea is that the more info you have, the more likely you are to find wolves. Which makes sense. It seems to be what you do with the info more than how much you have, but it's helpful as many of you are using his tracker. You obviously agree. However, I think he might be taking a different, less structured approach to this game. Now, as I said, he could be just annoyed by Liq, but if he's trying to make a play, it's a very bold one for him. He'd be using his own tendencies to hide, which I haven't seen him do as of yet. He spends a ton of time with this game though, so I still can't put it past him.

From what I've seen with PD and when he happens to be a wolf, he shows a difference in his play, at least with how he reacts to me personally. Usually when he's was a citizen, he would pretty much let me know when he thought I had a bad argument. There was much more scrutiny from his posts with regards to mine, and others. When he was a wolf, he eased up and tried to leave me alone. For instance: my random hunches weren't lucky anymore, they were uncanny. Stuff like that. I have noticed this a bit in this particular game. That's always a trigger for me in regards to PD. We've gone back and forth quite a bit, so I feel I have a bit of a better idea with him than most other players who I don't interact with a lot. It's hard to not interact with PD in this game.

I think that one, or possibly both (don't hold me to that though) are possible werewolves. I'm almost hoping this crap about Liq has a werewolf play. Otherwise I call schenanigans.

Hopefully that makes enough sense for you all to see what I mean.

---

^^ This is the updated version of my previous post, with Bugger instead of Ryan.

My top suspect is currently Bugger.
__________________
Originally posted by GLE:
And man... what happens when we get past 300 GDs? Will we need a second MOTL?

And then past 300 MOTLs... we'll need a new internet!

If one of you is a wolf, then you're doing a great job distracting everyone from all the solid analysis, pile review, cooperation, etc neccesary to find and kill wolves.

It's been my experience that wolves try and stay out of the way in early rounds. And now that Liq and PD are trying to be citizen liabilities, there is a better chance that they will both be around arguing with each other in round 5 since those are the kinds of people wolves keep around.

If we ignore ALL that BS, we see that there are two main issues involving THIS ACTUAL GAME.

1) Suspicious Behavior: BOT's deleted post. Ryan's "mix-up" of TMB and fwy.

2) Plenty of silent players.

I feel like discussion of these two issues will lead to more lynchings then finding out if PD 2.4 is a better strategy than Liq 1.7, even if Bugger is countering with FQANTZ.

quote:

---

Originally posted by MasterWolf:
I feel like most of this talk between Liq, PD, Bernek, and Bugger is nothing more than interference. If you all are truely citizens, then you are not helping us catch any wolves by arguing like you are. I don't care who is or isn't a better player. Analyize THIS GAME and help find the wolves.

If one of you is a wolf, then you're doing a great job distracting everyone from all the solid analysis, pile review, cooperation, etc neccesary to find and kill wolves.

It's been my experience that wolves try and stay out of the way in early rounds. And now that Liq and PD are trying to be citizen liabilities, there is a better chance that they will both be around arguing with each other in round 5 since those are the kinds of people wolves keep around.

If we ignore ALL that BS, we see that there are two main issues involving THIS ACTUAL GAME.

1) Suspicious Behavior: BOT's deleted post. Ryan's "mix-up" of TMB and fwy.

2) Plenty of silent players.

I feel like discussion of these two issues will lead to more lynchings then finding out if PD 2.4 is a better strategy than Liq 1.7, even if Bugger is countering with FQANTZ.

{SUMMARY: Bashing Liq and PD, trying to center talk back on actual game}

---

All I did was read the thread, came up with my own conclusion and apparently PD did not like it. I am not trying to argue. Just trying to play my game.

Voting Jaz

Hi-suspect PD

__________________
How many times do I have to have sex with your mom before you realize we have something special.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bernek77:
Say what you will, I don't like Jaz's behavior up to this point. I may have used the wrong terms of attacked ryan but calling him out is just one in the same. You changed your vote 3 times Rd 1. to me that is also suspicious and OOC! There like that. Bye PD hope to hear from you soon.

---

On the other hand, Liq himself last game (after the game was over) said that it is very OOC for him to change his vote. And immediately after saying that at the conclusion of a game where he was a wolf, first round next game, he changes his vote. He gets called on it like a half dozen times and refuses to respond. But THAT'S not suspicious because you fawn over the strongest player in the room.

I have come to the conclusion that I do not enjoy arguing with irrational people, so why do I play this game at all? I am no longer having fun and don't want to spend time here. Therefore, this will be my last game of WW, and I thank you all for some good times.

quote:

---

Originally posted by MasterWolf:
I feel like most of this talk between Liq, PD, Bernek, and Bugger is nothing more than interference. If you all are truely citizens, then you are not helping us catch any wolves by arguing like you are. I don't care who is or isn't a better player. Analyize THIS GAME and help find the wolves.
...
If we ignore ALL that BS, we see that there are two main issues involving THIS ACTUAL GAME.

---

{SUMMARY: re: MW, three issues, not two}

quote:

---

Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
I apologize if I am becoming a distraction.

---

So stop. Focus on the game.

__________________
Originally posted by GLE:
And man... what happens when we get past 300 GDs? Will we need a second MOTL?

And then past 300 MOTLs... we'll need a new internet!

ROUND 2 VOTES:

ryan2754 - 2 votes from PlasteredDragon [1], ThoughtsofLepers [2] - 1: TMB = fwy? I don't think so, 2: TMB is a cit?
Battle_of_Twits - 1 votes from MasterWolf [1] - 1: deleted post
BernieB - 1 votes from Liq [1] - 1: not stated
GottaLoveElves - 1 votes from hilikuS [1] - 1: so quiet
Jazaray - 1 votes from GottaLoveElves [1] - 1: attacking ryan
Liq - 1 votes from Bugger [1] - 1: dodging questions,provoking for no reason

No votes declared from: Battle_of_Twits, BernieB, JackSpade, Jazaray, ryan2754, TheMidnightBomber, XplicitR

{SUMMARY: tally so far. Ryan = 2, BOT = 1, Bernie = 1, GLE = 1, Jaz = 1, Liq = 1}

The second place to look for information is in behavior. If WWX was the game for temper-tantrums, WWXI is shaping up to be the game of senior moments- people are deleting posts, misquoting each other, mixing up and confusing other players with each other, and generally just playing weird. Some people might consider it just that- accidental brain farts, but I find that highly unlikely. Firstly, so many weird slipups have happened that the odds that all of them are comitted by cits (or the inverse, that none of them were committed by wolves) is quite low, too low IMO to be taken as fact or even seriously. I think at least one wolf has made one of these brainfarts- that means there is possibly a wolf among:
HilikuS, Battle_of_Twits, PD, ryan
Another thing that seems to be marking this game is provocation. People are snapping at each other all over the place, pushing buttons and agitating other players. I ackgnowledge my own part in this particular action with my rant at Liq- FWIW, it came out a lot angrier than I intended but I meant every word. That being said, there seem to be multiple antagonizers, and for the same reason I find it unlikely a wolf hasn't been among the mistake-makers I find it unlikely a wolf isn't among the instigators. That would be these players:
Bugger, PlasteredDragon, Liq, Bernek*
*Bernek so far has done little but needle PD. While I don't rank him quite as much of an aggressor, it still counts. (this is the part where you say something like "I knew it", Bernek. Just making sure you don't miss your cue.)

So taking the ideas from above, I've begun marking out a tentative wolf profile. Right now it looks like we have a wolfpack that most resembles WW9: plenty of pot-stirring, less emphasis on removing threats, probably aiming for more of a "real" game. I'm not surprised, really- the last time the wolves seemed to have a similar strategy was the game after one that kind of fell apart- the wolves just wiped out and lynched all the strong players and activity pretty much died. Last game seemed kind of nerve-wracking, and at a couple points it looked like there wasn't going to be any more werewolf (due to the fighting).
So, with that in mind, how is a wolfpack like this going to achieve their goals? Well, it seems to me they'll go a mixed route- one player hangs back mostly quiet, one player is semi-active, and one player is fully active.

The third and final place to look for information is the piles. PD has, as usual, mostly done this already before I can contribute, but just the same I still have some stuff to offer. Looking at the piles, I'm the only one who changes from a pile that still 'survives' (no random pile in R1 tiebreaker), which is obviously interesting. But I think attention should also be paid to the R1 regular piles. We had 5 piles, 4 of which had only 3 players. That's spread mighty damn thinly, I'd say. Which leads me to believe that there is most probably two wolves among the people who didn't change round-to-round- as easy is it for wolves to vote for one another and then hop off, I'd say it's equally easy to vote for someone consistently who you know is a cit just because if they get lynched you have the cover of suspecting them the 'whole time'. If there are only two wolves among the four tiebreaker piles (that didn't change), that leads me to believe that at maximum, only one among TMB, BoT, and Bernie are wolves. If one or two of them were, I would think they and their teammates would try to influence the piles in the tiebreaker more than just sitting there. Had all THREE of them been wolves I would find it most likely that they would cut their losses and vote off one of them. So, I think there's probably two (unlikely three, unlikely one) wolves among:
PD, ToL, MasterWolf, JackSpade, Ryan2754, and hilikuS. I'm discounting Bernek for now because there's just not enough information on that front.

So, to summarize:
Instigators:
PD, Bugger, Bernek, Liq ~ 1 wolf
Slip-ups:
ryan, PD, BoT, hilikuS ~ 1 wolf
Pile-hiders:
PD, ToL, HilikuS, MasterWolf, JackSpade, ryan2754 ~ 2 wolves

As PD comes up the most often and conforms to the psychograph as the "active" wolf, I'm going to be voting for him this round.
This psychograph is a little early coming, but given that we already have 2 sets of piles I figured it couldn't hurt. Obviously another set of piles being created tonight (HINT, HINT late voters) will only help this more.

{SUMMARY: Sketches out first iteration of psychograph, declares vote}
{VOTING: PlasteredDragon (fits preliminary psychograph)}

Also, I don't understand why you think it's OOC for me to post suspicions, I do every game. I'm never completely silent, I'm also not someone who posts every single page. So, I'm having trouble seeing where I am OOC, could you please explain this better?

@ryan Ok, I understand that YOU didn't vote for him for that reason, but that doesn't mean other people didn't, and it doesn't mean that other people didn't find the fact that he deleted his post suspicious. You were saying that people didn't find that suspicious and that's not why anyone voted for him. And no, I don't find you suspicious because your post is confusing, I said that it was odd and that there was something in your whole post that struck me as suspicious, but I couldn't put my finger on it. Thank you for explaining what you meant by "wolf on wolf" though. I do find it...weird that you confuse TMB and Fwy, they both have VERY different posting styles.

@HilikuS I have to disagree with you on Liq's helpfulness by posting nothing but his suspicions and no explanations. I'm NOT saying Liq is a bad player, but just posting a list of names and no reasons is not helpful at all. What would the game be like if we all acted that way? "Voting: HilikuS. High Suspicion: PD, Liq, ryan, BB. Medium Suspicion: GLE, TMB, Bugger. Low Suspicion: Bernek, BOT, MW, Jack, Xpr." How does this help? There's no info, no reasoning why I am suspicious of some and not of others, why am I voting HilikuS? There's nothing there to back it up. Do you understand what I mean?

@everyone: My highest suspicion right now is with Liq and his refusal to answer, or even acknowledge, the fact that he changed his vote r1 after stating that he *NEVER* does this as a cit.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Liq in X (squared):
FYI it is OOC for Liq to change his vote barring a reveal from the seer. I may have changed my vote like 5 times prior to this game.

---

So, I know that Liq is usually a job for the seer, but I really think that that time has passed. He's not helpful, not responsive and goes out of his way to be detrimental to EVERYONE. Voting Liq.

(sidenote: I started this post at about 1pm, didn't finish before I had to go and get my kids, then after I left, got a call from Amie saying she was staying late, so I messed around out of the house and just got back home to finish.)

Thanks,
Jazaray

{Suspect: Liq (OOC play, refusing to answer simple questions, generally being unhelpful)}
{Suspect: ryan (suspicious post, confusion of two very different players)}
{Voting: Liq (OOC play, unhelpful)}
{Summary: response to bernek, explanation of my feelings about Liq's plays, response to ryan. Voting Liq.}

__________________
A Plastered Dragon Original Limerick:
There was a nice lassie named Jaz
Many wished to have what she has,
A delicate face,
A soft warm embrace,
And a whole lot of bedroom pizzazz.

WeedIan: Jazaray is like MOTL's Mom.

quote:

---

Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
You confuse TMB and fwy because they are similar? Maybe it's just me but I don't find them similar at all. Fwy is reactionary, combative, and a pretty bad player. TMB is not an allstar but he's better than fwy, and typically more reserved. I really don't see how you could confuse them. For the record, if you had said it was a cut-and-paste error I would be more inclined to believe you, but this?

{VOTING: ryan (TMB = fwy? I don't think so.))

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
You're an excellent player, but as a wolf you are potentially very dangerous. And it is precisely because you are an excellent player that I have trouble believing you would confuse two very different players. If it was fwy and Bernek I might have bought it, but fwy and TMB? No.

---

Sentence 1: Terrible reason to vote someone.

Sentence 2: Umm...ok. I already addressed this. Just because you think them to be very different players doesn't think I do. I rarely see fwy as combative in the games I have played with him, and haven't really kept up with the recent games where it seems he has become that archetype. Again, another poor reason to vote someone.

Sentence 3: The fact that you say "I might have bought it" implied you were looking to disbelieve my reasoning for it anyway, which means you were going to suspect/vote me NO MATTER WHAT MY REASON IS.

I believe Liq makes an OK argument with regards to PD's posting behavior.
PD's response is adequate, in my opinion. We really never before have seen PD have a real life conflict in which he is away from this game for well, longer than a few hours, so I have nothing to compare it to.

I will say, however, that his post is a null-tell.

quote:

---

Originally posted by hilikuS:
I really think this feud with Liq should stop. Not only that, but this crap about who's a good player who's a bad player and how everybody should strive for some common playstyle as a goal. It's not only crap, but it's derailing the thread completely. The past page seems to be almost all about this garbage, and it clearly doesn't pertain to catching wolves at all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by hilikuS:
Liq is a minimalist when it comes to this game. The way I see it, he posts what's important in his view, and doesn't coat it with his opinions or whatever. This way, everybody else can get a clear, and hopefully unbiased view of the evidence. I personally think it's more helpful than pages of analysis, because I prefer to take what you all find and hash it out myself. I think that's how it should be. The more points of view you can come up with, the better. The more ideas there are on the table to work with.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by hilikuS:
I think the crap about Liq could possibly be an intentional way to derail the thread, and deviate the citizens from making good decisions about wolves. I see that there are now 2 players who are on Liq about his stuff. The latest has been Ryan.

Ryan: I played as a mafia with him in Liq's game, and he was very methodical with his mafia hits. He was the leader in that game, and was PMing me a lot about his theories and ideas about who he wanted to hit next. He was also very very effective at keeping people off his back in that game. I don't think he got a single vote against him, or at least very few votes. I think this sort of ploy could not only be something he thought of, but judging from my experience there, I think it's likely. He was a very sneaky mafia.

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Paragraph 1: Let's go back and see what I have said to Liq to "derail the thread." I said ONE thing towards Liq: "Liq, can you go into detail on this a little bit further...I am intrigued by what you may have found, and would like some evidence, as I personally didn't see it."
How is this an attempt to derail the thread at all? I said one thing to Liq - he gives an accusation/case on PD, without any backup, and I ask for it (and Liq has obliged). Whenever anyone I see that makes a case on someone without posting their logic and evidence, I ask them to give it, and if they don't it's suspicious (since having a case without evidence is dumb and suspicious. How is this remotely derailing the thread and deviate the cits from making a decision? On the contrary, asking Liq to give the evidence behind his claim (which he does) is actually HELPING the citizenry, as it gives them his reasoning which they can look into, agree/disagree with, and go back and form their own opinions. Asking people for their reasoning for a suspicion is a normal thing to do, and is in no way an attempt to derail the thread, and if we all just were suspicious of people with no evidence, this game would not be fun. It would be a game of "You are wolf," "Nuh, uh, you can't prove it," "But you are a wolf." Dumb, and another logically bad argument.

Paragraph 2: What "ploy" are you describing exactly? Again, voting/suspecting someone because I was a sneaky mafia is a bad reason. Being methodical as a wolf doesn't mean anything (opens up a whole can of WIFOM, because I play that way as a citizen.) It is the same type of argument as me saying, "Look, I remember playing wolf with hilikus, and he is posting exactly as he was when he was a wolf." Again, terrible argument.

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Originally posted by Bernek77:
I am voting for Jaz, up till a few posts ago he didn't post anything with meaning. Then she attacked Ryan. From what I have read hasn't really been that off. As much as I hate to agree with PD who I might add is second on my radar. She likes the return kill. However, more importantly it has cover potential. Why would she do that? It would bring attention to her. Nah she is a veteran. he wouldn't do that. I think that is what she is counting on.

She did do it to me and I def can see her doing it again.

Voting Jaz

Watching PD

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Poor argument. However, I looked back, and really outside of her question (not attack, Bernek) to me, she has posted information instead of analysis (IIoA) for the most part. Many of her posts either are game-related information (opinion on flaming, responding about N0 seer, etc.) rather than who she is suspicious of, etc. Again, I already told how I feel about calling someone suspicious because a certain person was killed during the night N0.

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Originally posted by Bernek77:
In fact you are wrong about motly everything you say. Have fun, play your game and I will play mine!

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Everyone (most of the time) is more wrong than right in this game, since there are significantly less wolves.

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Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:

As much as I think commenting on destructive play is an important in-game topic, I think fawning and fanboyism is not.

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Originally posted by Bugger:
Ryan: That entire response was me guessing at your thoughts. The "better wagon" is not my own thinking, but the hypothetical "better for a wolf" thinking.

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Originally posted by Bugger:
HilikuS: You put PD and Ryan as your top two suspects for yelling at Liq and you ignore this (Bugger's attack on Liq's ego)

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quote:

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Originally posted by hilikuS:
EDIT: Wow, put me in failjail until I redo my last long post... Apparently I have Bugger confused with Ryan. I'll have to rethink all of that I guess.

My comments about PD still remain consistent with what I was thinking, but the stuff about Ryan isn't. For those of you who actually took that seriously, I apologize. Gotta retool that part.

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My issue with your error, however, is what you wrote about me: I played as a mafia with him in Liq's game, and he was very methodical with his mafia hits. He was the leader in that game, and was PMing me a lot about his theories and ideas about who he wanted to hit next. He was also very very effective at keeping people off his back in that game. I don't think he got a single vote against him, or at least very few votes. I think this sort of ploy could not only be something he thought of, but judging from my experience there, I think it's likely. He was a very sneaky mafia.

You confused me and Bugger, but say you played with me as mafia, and use it as part of your argument as evidence. Surely you wouldn't have said the above things if you meant that post to be geared towards Bugger. Thus, I find your whole argument on me irrelevant at this point.

@PD: Keep playing...At least you talk. You make arguments, post, and get people talking. You attack and defend, and make others defend, which is the fun part of the game.
@MW: I slightly agree with PD. I feel he might be onto something with Liq's behavior.
@hilikus: Staying sith your GLE vote?
@Bugger: still staying with Liq vote?

One thing that I really think is suspicious if people really dropping off the face of the earth after they get some heat on them. It is the easiest cop out for wolves to do - disappear for a round after someone brings up a case on them and then to come back once it has dissipated. A few people come to mind - See suspicions below.

At this point, I think I have adequately defended against people's attacks on me, and find their arguments to be sub-par and weak in logic.

My suspicions so far, with quick explanation:
High Suspicion- BoT (silence, bandwagon, IIoA)
Mild Suspicion- PD (weak-logic, suspicious of me because I'm good mafia argument), BernieB (silence and disappearance after suspicion), TMB (silence and disappearance after suspicion), ToL (bandwagon this round, hypocritical vote last round), Jackspade (silence and disappearance after suspicion)

Slight Suspicion- hilikus (suspicious of me because I'm good mafia argument), Jaz (IIoA), XplicitR (silence)

No suspicion - MW, Bernek, Bugger

My issue, however, is that I have found almost everyone that is ACTUALLY POSTING in this game to have said something suspicious. Again, the above scales are all relative. The general trend in my above list is that with an additional scum tell, you raise a level of suspicion, with the high suspicions people who have drawn multiple scumtells. One scum tell in and of itself makes you only slightly suspicious, but an accumulation gives high suspicion, resulting in a vote.
Personally, silence KILLS these games. I am going to vote for someone who isn't adding to the conversation at all, and who I already suspected before. BoT bandwagoned, and piggy-backed AGM's logic, and then this round has been silent, trying to avoid the conversation that is currently on him. The only thing he has posted this round is the whole seer N0 thing, and nothing since (more IIoA).

{voting: TMB}

__________________
Stages of Death: Anger, Denial, Barganing, Depression, Acceptance, Burial, Decay, Haunting, Revenge, Evil Laugh

PD: I missed this earlier, but please don't let people like Bernek keep you from playing. You're a hell of a lot better player to have in the game than he is.

Jaz: I'm debating whether or not your last post counts as instigation. We'll see.

THEMIDNIGHTBOMBER. JACKSPADE. Both of you have been posting on MOTL in the last 24 hours so you are at least near computers. SPEAK UP. I try to limit myself to a silent/unhelpful player lynch only in R1 but if you (TMB especially) keep it up I think I'm going to go back on that.

If MM wants me to run a game sometime I'll probably take part, but otherwise I'm done.

Anyway, my vote is staying on you--I think I twigged on something there and your response seems coolly calculated which doesn't at all feel like the ryan I've played with before--not to say you aren't capable of a calm rational response, but this is way different than, for example, WW6. You almost seem like a completely different person from WW6 ryan.

It doesn't seem like you are going to be lynched, and since I feel I am on to something, I figure I won't make it through the night, which at this point would suit me fine.

@Bugger: given your psychograph leads you to me, I know there's something you're missing. Could it be that I'm not a pile hider? In the TB round I declared a vote switch from TMB to AGM, unfortunately I did it shortly before MM posted the results, and didn't get a PM to him in time. Had that gone through I'd have switched piles.

Either way, you've not found a wolf, friend.

{VOTING: ryan (changed playstyle, TMB=cit post, confused fwy & TMB)}

EDIT: {SUMMARY: vote stays on ryan, reminds Bugger about PD's declared vote switch off TMB, definitely last game.}

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Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
I realized today I do not find this fun. Given that I am not having fun, and that my life is very very full right now with work & photography, I would just as soon not be bothered.

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Originally posted by Bugger:
Ryan: I changed my vote to PD, and listed why.

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Also, what do you mean by Jaz's post being instigation?

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Originally posted by Battle_of_Twits:
I've been trying my best to follow this round but it's been difficult sifting through it all. Voting TMB, we should eliminate silent players.

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Really?

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Originally posted by ryan2754:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bugger:
Ryan: I changed my vote to PD, and listed why.

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[/QUOTE]

THat's really weird. MOTL ate my post.
What I was going to say is that she used some charged language in her voting for Liq. I felt it was borderline worthy of consideration, but I'm not sure. I don't know if the instigator group is going to survive til next round (the group in the abstract, not the players themselves).

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Originally posted by Bugger:

Even after you're less busy?

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As for my own thoughts, BernieB sticks out in my mind because fwyb was quick to try and rally people against Bernie, voting for him during the vote and re-vote. And then he gets taken out by the wolves. While this could be a bluff by the wolves, by setting someone up to look like a wolf, I think they decided to take care of fwyb early on hoping it wouldn't arouse too many suspicions. I think they feared he would continue on his quest to get Bernie lynched and that led to his death.

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Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
having watched you play 9 WW games I have come to a rather unsavory conclusion WRT your game. In my opinion, you see WW/mafia as a continuum, and make moves based on what they will get you in future games.

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Thought this was common knowledge. I apologize if it wasn't.

That said, I don't abandon any game I play.

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Originally posted by JackSpade:
As far as the arguments that have been made the one that resonates to me is PD's questioning of Liq and Liq not being very forthcoming with answers.

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PD wants me to argue with him and I'm not about to oblige him.

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Originally posted by Jazaray:
When has he actually helped the cits win a WW game?

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I did a seer bluff and helped find the 3rd wolf in the last Villager Clean sweep. WW4 I think.

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Originally posted by Jazaray
Has Liq won MVP in a ww game yet (I honestly don't remember)?

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I was a MVP in the last game.

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Currently Voting :
 
• PlasteredDragon

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__________________
Your Captain N of 2008