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Originally posted by hilikuS:
Yeah that's not even close to theft. Guy getting frisked agreed to the transaction and willingly relinquished ownership of his stuff for some other stuff.

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Wow, you guys really need to stop taking everything precisely literally.

No, that is not theft under the law, where the person should be arrested and criminally charged. Duh. I'm not an idiot.

Actually you know what? Here's a theory for you: The 'new guy' stole those cards, knew exactly what they were worth, and by pretending to undervalue them, just successfully laundered hundreds of dollars of stolen property in exchange for property he now owns free and clear, and can go sell somewhere else for cash.

That's almost certainly not what happened, but it could have.

And regardless of the circumstances, unless the guy who got ripped off had spent all day being a total jerk and bragging about his awesome collection, and kicking puppies, it is just plain and simply WRONG to let him rip himself off that badly.

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Originally posted by Devonin:
Wow, you guys really need to stop taking everything precisely literally.

No, that is not theft under the law, where the person should be arrested and criminally charged. Duh. I'm not an idiot.

Actually you know what? Here's a theory for you: The 'new guy' stole those cards, knew exactly what they were worth, and by pretending to undervalue them, just successfully laundered hundreds of dollars of stolen property in exchange for property he now owns free and clear, and can go sell somewhere else for cash.

That's almost certainly not what happened, but it could have.

And regardless of the circumstances, unless the guy who got ripped off had spent all day being a total jerk and bragging about his awesome collection, and kicking puppies, it is just plain and simply WRONG to let him rip himself off that badly.

And if my 'friend' had been the one taking advantage of him, we'd have had some pretty harsh words.

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There's no real right or wrong answer here. Just do what you think is right. Even if you think you did it right, I bet you can find someone who says you didn't do enough.

Personally? Yeah I would probably mention it, especially if the person asked me. That has happened a lot before. "Hey BP what do you think of this trade?" I usually either say, I would or wouldn't take it. If it's super bad, then yeah, I'm going to mention that part, but should it be expected of someone to step in on someone else's dealings and make a moral decision? No freakin' way.

I have, and will always try to be as honest as possible about pricing with people I deal with. Not because I'm a good Catholic, but because it's stupid in the long run to do anything but. Eventually some people are going to realize you're a shark, and that news is going to become popular opinion. IMO you want to be approachable. When people see me walk into the shops around here, I want them to say "Hey BP is here, maybe he's got what I need to finish this deck." not "Better not ask BP, he'll haggle me to death and try to rip me off."

And if the guy who was so happy about ripping off the new guy discovered that he was the one that was ripped, that would be poetic in a way.

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Originally posted by frankenskid:
I would have wholeheartedly stepped in, and publicly chided the guy trying to rip someone off... there's a difference between getting value and ruining someone's collection. Smartphones are everywhere just about, but not everyone can afford one. Someone who is just getting back into the game and gets screwed like that is just gonna quit again. If this had been one of my friends, I think something bad would happen to the guy that ripped my friend off. Something really bad..... might have ended up in the hospital.

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So because your friend is so infantile that he cannot take responsibility for his own actions, you commit a crime? These "interfere with a trade" types are on even more shaky "moral" ground than I thought.

1. I alerted him that his prices were off to the point of absolute rape.
2. I would then tell him the actual market price of his cards.
3. I would then say "I trade for profit" or "I need to make money on this trade".

By this time he should be very open and understanding. You might make a grand by doing this once, but once he finds out he will NEVER do business with you ever again. I'd rather make 2 grand off him for life then make 1k and have the guy NEVER give me business again.

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Originally posted by Volcanon:
So because your friend is so infantile that he cannot take responsibility for his own actions, you commit a crime? These "interfere with a trade" types are on even more shaky "moral" ground than I thought.

Do you go to McDonalds and, while somebody is trying to order the McFat Combo, you tell him that Wendy's FatBurgerExtreme is a better deal and they are getting "ripped off" here because the same thing is cheaper at Wendys? Exactly what is the difference here? You are interfering where you are clearly not welcome. And in a world of subjective card values these busybody personalities can get really annoying, really fast. I've had times where I was offering my $10 card for their $9, going by MOTL. Some idiot butts in because "StarCity" shows that my card is actually 50 cents cheaper or something. Where do you draw the line at butting in? Why can't you treat adults as rational actors? Who gave you the right to decide what is a fair trade, or that a rational actor needs interference? Don't people deserve the liberty of making trades which aren't exactly 1:1?

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Originally posted by Volcanon:
So because your friend is so infantile that he cannot take responsibility for his own actions, you commit a crime? These "interfere with a trade" types are on even more shaky "moral" ground than I thought.

Do you go to McDonalds and, while somebody is trying to order the McFat Combo, you tell him that Wendy's FatBurgerExtreme is a better deal and they are getting "ripped off" here because the same thing is cheaper at Wendys? Exactly what is the difference here? You are interfering where you are clearly not welcome. And in a world of subjective card values these busybody personalities can get really annoying, really fast. I've had times where I was offering my $10 card for their $9, going by MOTL. Some idiot butts in because "StarCity" shows that my card is actually 50 cents cheaper or something. Where do you draw the line at butting in? Why can't you treat adults as rational actors? Who gave you the right to decide what is a fair trade, or that a rational actor needs interference? Don't people deserve the liberty of making trades which aren't exactly 1:1?

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Couldn't have said it better myself. I personally have to deal with "that guy" at my local store. He hovers on a trade with a smartphone in hand (as a 3rd party, mind you) and offers to look up SCG values, unsolicited. I actually barked at him pretty good after he pestered me and a trader completing a trade involving Beta Sinkholes for some ONS fetches.

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Originally posted by Zeckk:

I really can't stress this enough - adults are adults. Stop projecting these "I wouldn't want this to happen to me" arguments onto the situation, because the world isn't supposed to hold your hand through life.

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Well yeah because in this situation, if you "Wouldn't want it to happen to you." that means you already know the score, so it actually can't happen to you.

I don't even look up cards anymore because there's so many people with the phone out ready to do it for me I just let them.

How about this crap rare for your Deadeye Navigator?

HOLD ON LET ME LOOK THAT UP FOR YOU GUYS! WHAT PRICE GUIDE DO YOU USE?

Erm, you don't use that one, whatever you want is fine.

OK MAN LET ME CHECK SCG!

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Originally posted by walkerdog:
Being upset that someone might keep you from ripping someone off is pretty scummy. I don't know if I would have stepped in, but there's no reason to belittle others who would have.

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Originally posted by walkerdog:
Being upset that someone might keep you from ripping someone off is pretty scummy. I don't know if I would have stepped in, but there's no reason to belittle others who would have.

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Yeah... I feel this. I've had people glare at me and try to shut me down, and honestly there are a few creative places they can go and stick their irritation. I'm not instructing anyone how to trade, far from it - one time I saw a kid swapping a stoneforge for a world spine wurm (this was shortly after worldwake when people realized stoneforge + swords = good), interrupted briefly just to let him know that the trade was monetarily very lopsided. Ignoring the slobbering objections from the other guy trying to hush me up, I addressed the kid and just told him he was free to do whatever he wanted but if he wanted to get full value of the stoneforge he should probably ask for more cards. He thought it over, decided he didn't care, and did the trade one for one. Nothing wrong with that situation, there's nothing wrong with a value-unequal trade in and of itself as long as both parties are informed. I just happen to assume the benefit of the doubt and if it looks like someone doesn't know how valuable their cards are, I give them a heads-up.

However, I believe OP was asking the question of whether you should intervene when you see such trade happening in front of you. Absolutely you need to step in and do SOMETHING, doesn't matter where you stand morally. If you believe it's okay to rip off someone who doesn't do his own homework prior to a trade, you should make your own offer to try to steal the deal. If you don't believe in ripping off people, then you should speak up about how lopsided the trade is. If the other guy is truly your friend, then you guys should split the profit.

> The police are very good at what they do. Publishing this sort of statement is kinda dumb if that's what you want to do. Oh, and how is there not going to be evidence if you rough up the guy? You think he's just not going to see some guy at magic beat him up? I hope you enjoy a long stay in jail.

And to be honest, I don't know why anyone eats fast food anyway, to speak to your offer: A. McDonalds' prices are common knowledge, and someone may go with them for a specific reason, not just because they are "what's there" B. it's also not like the mcdonalds cashier is trying to see how much they can get them to pay for the same food so that they can keep the difference. Finally, C. If I know food is cheaper somewhere else, what am I doing at Mcdonalds, so that argument is a straw-man. I tell everyone, and I mean everyone to look up prices, and I offer my cellphone to do it. If I don't step in, then I would immediately start negotiating with my friend to trade for his shocks in a loud way, so as to spread the knowledge of their value so that no one can say they didn't know the value..... Douchebags like this that rip people off like this are barely above the thieves that just straight up steal a backpack full of cards. So if you are here for the "Sick brags" (which is the only reason I see you being here) I hope you and your friends who obviously share your lack of morals have karma come back to kick you in the ass with a stiletto heel.

Deal with a vendor? not a problem, both sides know the values. If you are the store, and own the place, then it's fine you can do what you want, but in this case the guy was not identified as the owner, just someone at the store, therefore the rest of your argument is invalid.

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Originally posted by Zeckk:
That's interesting, because most of the belittling in this thread is coming from people saying they would step in. Unless you think the argument for greater personal responsibility is belittling?

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No. I was responding to the post above mine raging that someone was quoting SCG prices and the general tone in the thread that "hey we've all ripped someone and it's fine so don't step in and say something."

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Originally posted by linvala:
Both ends of this discussion are the reason I don't trade anymore, everyone is out to get everyone or walks around with a holier than thou "I need to save the game of magic" attitude.

Let them do the trade, you don't know the guy, it's not your problem, if he asks feel free to help, but it's not your job to save every person from the "evil sharks "stealing"(lawlz) their cards"

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Reading is nifty, yo.

If it was a close friend of mine being ripped, I'd step in.