__________________
"Message to women worldwide: Girls....we're stupid. We don't like games. We don't know games. We can't read minds. Say it like you mean or STFU." -rockondon

I'd volunteer but I know crap about building a site and contents, let alone law.

Like Eminem said: Will the real project leader please stand up, please stand up, ...

Maybe I give it another try and see what we need, IMO:

1 "the Project leader";
2 "the Lawyer", who will keep track of legal things so that Leshrac can't sue us for copying or whatever;
3 "the Accountant", one that determines what funding we need and what costs there are involved;
4 "the Builders", of course. People that know about site-building and all that goes with it (features, lay-out, etc.)

So far, not taking account the people on the first page that have volunteered..

1
2
3 Stu55
4 Pugowar

Anything I left out? As you can see, this would only be a small group, of about 6-7 people. It shouldn't be too big, otherwise you get communication-issues. Everyone should report to the project leader. Things like this need to be structured well in order for it to take off.

As said, I wouldn't mind being project leader, but I believe my lack of knowledge of everything will not be helpful (don't know US law, don't know about programming, don't know about local costs etc). I think I know projects though, but I believe I'm not the only on here that knows about that.

I guess the right order should be:

1: Lawyer finds out about copyright issues and so forth, seeing that we can't be sued or fined or anything. I don't think we can if we name the site differently, but that's up to them.
2: Fundraising, to get started. The funds/cards can be send to the accountant (preferrably a well-known and trusted board member like Slinga, paragondave, Jaz. But don't let my name-calling let people feel obliged to do this) if people are weary about that.
3: Leader designates Builder(s) to start with whatever is required to get started (buying servers/webspace/domain I suppose).

Let me know if I take this too easy by the way.

So basically, is there any lawyer on here that is willing to find out if we can set up a MOTL 2 without any issues? And perhaps, is there another lawyer on here that can verify his findings?

small Edit
__________________
I'm a geek, you're a geek. Let's trade.

I'm afraid it will slowly bleed empty though. No offense to anyone, but 6 days after the last post shows there is probably not enough motivation to get it up and running. Unless there is a lawyer among us (or if someone knows a lawyer that doesn't have a problem to look things up) and see if we don't violate any rights/rules or risk any copyright issues, you can't take it to the next step.
Which would probably be arrange who is going to develop the site (schematics), before we arrange funding and start building.

__________________
I'm a geek, you're a geek. Let's trade.

This could be solved by using MOTL 1.0 PM system as the verification, referencing it in 2.0 and then letting 2.0 have a continuation of the reference tracker.

For example mine could referenced as JLimoco 191 in the new system and a new number could track any future ref checks.

- This puts the onus on the MOTL member to transfer over their refs to a Mod/Admin within MOTL 1.0.
- Maintains some of the safety of our community
- The new account is no longer dependent on MOTL 1.0 after verification.

What made MOTL successful was the community. For most of us, our reputation here was more important than some of the trades/sales we did.

quote:

---

Originally posted by AEther Storm:
Thanks guys, I'll put you in there so that when this projects lifts off we know we can contact you guys.

I'm afraid it will slowly bleed empty though. No offense to anyone, but 6 days after the last post shows there is probably not enough motivation to get it up and running. Unless there is a lawyer among us (or if someone knows a lawyer that doesn't have a problem to look things up) and see if we don't violate any rights/rules or risk any copyright issues, you can't take it to the next step.
Which would probably be arrange who is going to develop the site (schematics), before we arrange funding and start building.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vegas10:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AEther Storm:
Thanks guys, I'll put you in there so that when this projects lifts off we know we can contact you guys.

I'm afraid it will slowly bleed empty though. No offense to anyone, but 6 days after the last post shows there is probably not enough motivation to get it up and running. Unless there is a lawyer among us (or if someone knows a lawyer that doesn't have a problem to look things up) and see if we don't violate any rights/rules or risk any copyright issues, you can't take it to the next step.
Which would probably be arrange who is going to develop the site (schematics), before we arrange funding and start building.

---

Thanks. Although I personally fail to see why we can't set up a site, make it perhaps somewhat similar to this one and call it 'The Community' and avoid any legal issues along the way. What could pose a problem if you just build a site and took it from there? But I have no knowledge of such issues.

__________________
I'm a geek, you're a geek. Let's trade.

Or... EchoMtg (and other sites similar to it) already has integration for values and a collection binder. If they tack on some flags to mark what is available for trade, add a Want List binder, and a trade matcher app, then they are most of the way there.

Refs, messaging and moderator functionality would also be needed, but I expect that would be easy compared to the Magic-specific functionality which I think they have the hardest part done.

quote:

---

Originally posted by raging_elf:
wasnt the site suppose to expire in september? Are we in the clear now?

---

Yeah. For the coming year.

__________________
I'm a geek, you're a geek. Let's trade.

quote:

---

Originally posted by raging_elf:
wasnt the site suppose to expire in september? Are we in the clear now?

---

It got renewed
http://www.whois.com/whois/magictraders.com

quote:

---

Originally posted by Krieg:
It got renewed
http://www.whois.com/whois/magictraders.com

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Krieg:
It got renewed
http://www.whois.com/whois/magictraders.com

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by hilikuS:
It has been remade.

---

Using a fast site like puca to automatically match me with people looking for my cards ive sent to over 100 people in like 6 months.. it took me years on motl to hit not even 200..

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpmehelpyou:
Idk why people here are so hung up on refs anyway.

Using a fast site like puca to automatically match me with people looking for my cards ive sent to over 100 people in like 6 months.. it took me years on motl to hit not even 200..

Auto match trading is the future and ref systems are obsolete.
just mimic puca as much as possible. Toss is a few cool options puca doesnt have. Let ppl customize their profiles. Etc
give each person a feedback section. So you can warm ppk if they didnt send a nm card or didnt use toploaders. Etc and boom done. Stop worrying about damn refs.

---

its a great community. Generous and the xmas xchange is always fun.

But the ref system isnt realy that important. The only thing ppl actually used it for was to get people to send first. to help eliminate some risk of being ripped off. Which ironicly lead to the easiest way for scammers on this site to rip people off was by targeting people with lower refs and forcing them to send first.

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpmehelpyou:
No hate. I love motl

its a great community. Generous and the xmas xchange is always fun.

But the ref system isnt realy that important. The only thing ppl actually used it for was to get people to send first. to help eliminate some risk of being ripped off. Which ironicly lead to the easiest way for scammers on this site to rip people off was by targeting people with lower refs and forcing them to send first.

---

Which, in a way, is a good thing.

It helps 'protect' people that have build up a reputation with their refs to deal with newer members (that could possibly be scammers looking for a quick win) and have them send first.

But when used the other way around, when those that have build up a reputation start to abuse it, that's something this system doesn't cover (i.e. is why we have BTA/BANNED lists)

If you take away the need for references (which is fine with me), trading can be done in 2 ways:

- Based on trust (hello scammers)
- Based on 3rd party. IMO, having a selected, established group of 3rd parties nullifies the ripping threat. People can choose to not send via 3rd party to speed up sending, but that is for their own risk.

I know it has flaws (how do you compensate the 3rd party, and sending time is somewhat delayed), but it's just my 0.02

__________________
I'm a geek, you're a geek. Let's trade.

Should my refs be better or equal to his?

assuming motl makes a new site and we all need to build refs ill just send commons for the first few weekd and be #1 in refs. And then everyone has to send to me first after that.

Im not saying there is no use for refs. Im just saying they really shouldnt carry much weight. they should only play a small factor in deciding if you want to trade with someone. And it should never determine sending order.

There should def be at least 5 pieces of data used to get a general idea of someones "reputation"

every trade should have a small rating at the end.

Did the person package the card(s) properly

Did the person send the card in a timely manor?

Was the card the edition condition and language that was agreed upon?

Did the person include a throw in (this wouldnt actually effect the above)
Throw ins could earn traders a special point and unlock various things over time

Yes, there are issues with the ref system.
-Someone can still rip after having built a solid reputation, but the chance is smaller that they are willing to build that rep and then rip.
-Also, we have had accounts with substantial refs hacked before and ripped people from there, but this is no different than getting ripped from a hacked account somewhere else.
-The issue with sending first can be a thing. Some users can be real sticklers for this and have others send first whenever they can but most users here just want to think that they can trust someone before sending and it doesn't take a whole lot of refs to do that. I only have 61 refs and I don't remember the last time I sent first. If it is too much of a hassle dealing with someone, don't trade with them; same as face to face.

When it comes to refs, if you want to think of it in real world terms, would you trust someone with your money/valueables, one on one, if you knew nothing about them? How about if they had a solid reputation?

Sorry for rambling but the whole point that I am trying to make is that there is not outside protection and insurance everywhere in life and we have to do the best we can to protect ourselves. Currently, here, that is the ref system. If we changed it to something like 3rd party sending or anything like puca, we would need substantial infrastructure restructuring, cohesion, and usually extra costs; which are all things that don't appear possible at the moment. The feedback system you mentioned, I think, would practically be the same thing as we have now. People would have others with a low number of feedbacks send first until they have built a reputation.

Here's an update on what we're working on:

We are building a platform that was initially intended for our local community (stores and players) to use to better find players, stores, and events. This platform would include most MOTL basics, including trades/buy/sell/refs/boards/etc, and thus we've decided we will build it out with the help of MOTLers to include most of the needs you have deemed critical.

Most of the backend of the platform is complete. We are now working on the front, at which point we will start asking for beta-testers. Jazaray has been really helpful and we'll continue to seek help once needed.

Here's some background:

1) We are a community of developers and magic players (some of us in the game since Beta, and on MOTL for a long, long time too). We currently have 6 people working on the platform and will likely seek additional help when needed.

2) The platform will be not for profit and free to use, but will also have some revenue generating streams to help fund costs. Including events, swag, etc.

3) We will put up a beta ASAP - the earlier we have people involved, the better.

4) Please feel free to ask me any questions. We will have a landing page setup soon for users to register.