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Originally posted by iccarus:

... there are far too many mtg players who see stuff like this, scream "BOOBIES!!!" and then pull out their wallets. Many of those are the same guys who whine about how no women play magic or girls look down on them for their hobby. It's stuff like this that steers women away from magic ...

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Originally posted by iccarus:
I do realize there are far too many mtg players who see stuff like this, scream "BOOBIES!!!" and then pull out their wallets. Many of those are the same guys who whine about how no women play magic or girls look down on them for their hobby. It's stuff like this that steers women away from magic, because it shows women as nothing more than subservient sex workers catering to their master.

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Originally posted by Myy:
So much truth in this.

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This really has nothing to do with magic, but more a cultural decision on what is used to sell products. If you look, EVERYWHERE in life, you see this type of image (this may be a bit more graphic than some, but it is the idea behind it that matters more than the specific image). From beer commercials to movies to cars to college adds to websites to games and on and on. "Sex sells". This is not a surprise to anyone. When was the last time you saw an "ugly" person advertising something that was not porpously cast for that specific item. I am not saying it is a good thing or a bad thing, just that it is what sells, so it is what people who want money use to sell products.

I really can not believe there is so much going on about this mat. Watch a prime time tv show for 30 minutes. Look at a magazine cover. Browse the internet. Look at a billboard. Watch any movie. Play a game. This type of message is everywhere. It is what it is, if you don't like it, move on. No one is forcing you to buy the mat. If you get it for free, throw it away. There will always be someone who does not like something. The saying "To Each Their Own" I believe works in this situation.

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Originally posted by iccarus:
I do realize there are far too many mtg players who see stuff like this, scream "BOOBIES!!!" and then pull out their wallets. Many of those are the same guys who whine about how no women play magic or girls look down on them for their hobby. It's stuff like this that steers women away from magic, because it shows women as nothing more than subservient sex workers catering to their master.

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The way this paragraph breaks in the original post, I thought you were going to say that they pull out their wieners.

Your post was very well put together and says pretty much everything I would say about it if I made a post. Not that I don't totally dig sexy redheaded elves, because I do, but I would never use one as a playmat. That sort of stuff belongs in my brain, not on sleeves, playmats, or altered cards.

edit: @I3Iood: I think the point is that the global MtG brand has done a decent job of steering clear of this type of overt sexuality with their advertising/ Well, since they quit printing Earthbind, anyway. That this stuff is everywhere doesn't mean that it should be, and it definitely doesn't mean that WotC should follow suit, as it were. They should do the exact opposite of this because they have the responsibility to protect their brand from its stigma as much as it can.

This isn't Burger King or Hardee's, where catering to your audience (18-34 fat guys) isn't a big deal. There is a very real stigma about fantasy gaming (deserved or not) which basically implies a bunch of socially awkward fat virgins play these games, the kind that couldn't pay for sex in Nevada. Mouth-breathing jerkoffs that pop wood as soon as someone else says "oh look! A girl is playing Magic! I hope she's hot!"

These people are in the vast minority, but they're the ones who get the negative attention. It is imperative for WotC to protect everyone that plays its games from these stereotypes by not catering to them.

It's an issue of assigning negative roles to a gender, and it's a negative context magic has been very careful in recent years to avoid. Female characters portrayed in product art, while sometimes sexy, are typically shown as powerful, elegant, or majestic...not as the brothel worker clawing at the feet of the master.

@airwalk - You may not be offended, but that does not diminish the rights of others to have a problem with the image. Yes, it may be "tame" by the standards of modern society. However, it's still degrading in the eyes of many people.

You discredit yourself by dismissing those who take issue with the image by saying “they just have too much time on their hands and like to complain.” I assure you, there are many people who find it offensive to put imagery like this in the mainstream and it's not just because they are bored. Many of them are just sick of constantly being bombarded by this kind of steretype perpetuating imagery, and actually want it to stop. All this image does is set up a typical male domination fantasy.

Also, how the hell is debating the issue a disservice to women’s rights? The mere fact that is an issue is actually a sign that people are becoming sensitive to these types of concerns and negative messages.

Your mention of the slutwalk issue is completely irrelevant as well. That's an empowerment movement designed around how women choose to portray their own individual image and why they should not be judged because of it...not about designing a piece of art that forces a subservient gender role on them. If anything, this piece goes against everything the slutwalk movement stands for.

@JoshSherman - well said.

__________________
Wisconsin - smells like dairy air!

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Originally posted by MAB_Rapper:
Seriously? You really think that someone telling her that "any female that is offended by this picture is insecure with herself and needs to look within for answers on how to deal with stuff like this" is appropriate? Public figure or not, that's a load of crap.

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I'm not saying that any of the responses to her critique are appropriate or called for. What I was saying that she should not be surprised by all the nerd-bashers out on the internet. On this site we are polite and respectful of each other for the most part. That is not the case for most of the internet. If you put yourself out there on the internet you should realize that people will come out of the woodwork to disagree/agree with you and proceed to call you a nazi/saint.

I actually agree that the image should not be used as it is demeaning to women. Granted everyone is different in what they think as demeaning, for me the test is if I would feel right playing with that playmat with the girls in my playgroup and i definitely would not. Its way too over the top for my tastes and I am glad that Wizards PR (if it was them might have been the TO) was smart enough to pull it.

What should I do? The Avatar sells for $20, whereas the Avenger they are selling for $65.

Keep it, or call them on the mistake?

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Originally posted by ryan2754:
So ordered a FOIL JSS City of Brass and FOIL JSS Serra Avatar from SCG and they sent an Extended Art FOIL Serra Avenger instead of Avatar...

What should I do? The Avatar sells for $20, whereas the Avenger they are selling for $65.

Keep it, or call them on the mistake?

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Kind of a personal decision isnt it? One the one hand they are a big company that would hardly miss it. On the other hand its keeping something thats not yours, heck they might even let you keep it. Just depends on you.
Or just roll a d20 to decide

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Originally posted by JackSpade:
As for I3Iood (Jason) you have to understand the problem here would be if Wizards oked this kind of advertising. No one is saying it doesn't happen everywhere else, that doesn't make it right. As for us it says a lot about the players the type of things they are ok/disagree with. You don't see anything wrong with it that's fine, but other people do and as such they should be allowed to voice their opinions as should you.

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You are correct, but your opinion of "right and wrong" may differ from someone else's opinion. Just because you believe this is "wrong" does not make it wrong. Also you say:

Originally posted by JackSpade:
No one is saying it doesn't happen everywhere else, that doesn't make it right.

like this type of advertisement is wrong other places. This is the problem with society, always judging and forcing their opinions of right and wrong on people. I think all the "religious" and "good moral crap" that most people put out there is a scam and most do not actually believe it or actually live by it.

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Originally posted by JackSpade:
Kind of a personal decision isnt it? One the one hand they are a big company that would hardly miss it. On the other hand its keeping something thats not yours, heck they might even let you keep it. Just depends on you.
Or just roll a d20 to decide

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I guess the decision isn't that easy, but the "right" thing to do is to email them to let them know about the mistake. You would 100% do it if the mistake was something that harmed you instead of benefit you, and you would 100% want someone to contact you if you made such a mistake. SCG might be a "big company" but such companies are still run by human employees that make mistakes. IMO, the only difference here is that some people will think (as above) that SCG won't miss the $45.

Whether most people would do the right thing in this case though... eh.

Edit and not related to the above post:

DKA box. Open or just sell as sealed? I'm really only looking for about ~$50-60 average return in a box to open it, so it's not like I need to make at least $90 in singles which is near impossible from any box.

__________________
Wisconsin - smells like dairy air!

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Originally posted by iccarus:
@I3Iood - This is not a morality issue. It is an issue of reinforcing negative gender roles. Big difference.

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Originally posted by iccarus:
@airwalk - You may not be offended, but that does not diminish the rights of others to have a problem with the image. Yes, it may be "tame" by the standards of modern society. However, it's still degrading in the eyes of many people.

You discredit yourself by dismissing those who take issue with the image by saying “they just have too much time on their hands and like to complain.” I assure you, there are many people who find it offensive to put imagery like this in the mainstream and it's not just because they are bored. Many of them are just sick of constantly being bombarded by this kind of steretype perpetuating imagery, and actually want it to stop. All this image does is set up a typical male domination fantasy.

Also, how the hell is debating the issue a disservice to women’s rights? The mere fact that is an issue is actually a sign that people are becoming sensitive to these types of concerns and negative messages.

Your mention of the slutwalk issue is completely irrelevant as well. That's an empowerment movement designed around how women choose to portray their own individual image and why they should not be judged because of it...not about designing a piece of art that forces a subservient gender role on them. If anything, this piece goes against everything the slutwalk movement stands for.

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It's a disservice because instead of taking action against places where this type of thing shouldn't be such as in billboards, commercials, etc. where their is a large impressionable viewing audiences, you take aim at a place where it should be more appropriate -- a fantasy game primarily played by 20-something male adults. It's a waste of time, if you're seriously concerned about the over sexualization of women you should start your crusade somewhere this type of thing isn't expected. M;TG isn't "the mainstream".

The SlutWalk movement is about choice, and just as women have the right to be strong, dominant females they also reserve the right to be anything but as well should they so choose. No progressive thinking female would care about this piece of art because they would understand how truely irrelevant it is.

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Originally posted by iccarus:
@I3Iood - This is not a morality issue. It is an issue of reinforcing negative gender roles. Big difference.

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It's only a negative gender role to you because you think it is. Without even thinking about it you are disparaging women who are empowered by/and enjoy being submissive as if it's something bad. Coins have two sides, you're stuck looking at one of them.

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Originally posted by I3Iood:
but I believe most people are evil by nature.

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Originally posted by I3Iood:
Who is it reinforcing it to? If I let my children (which I have none at the moment) have their opinion of women be based on some stupid playmat, then I have failed as a parent. If my mental capacity is that of a teenager, and I can not accept people as equals, then I have failed as a human. The crap that this is not a morality issue is garbage.

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It's not a morality issue in the terms you are arguing (religion) and I think you're failing to see the whole point of my argument. The whole hypocrisy of religion/society aspect is not the issue that’s being debated here. It’s not an issue of using sex to market products either. Each person has their own level of how much nudity/provocative imagery they are able to tolerate. Individuals will react to those ads based on what they find acceptable and some will decide against buying a product because they disagree with that form of advertising. That's the right of both the consumer and the company.

The issue here is about the CONTEXT of the image in question and the perceived precedent it could set. You have a number of provocatively dressed women being portrayed in a subservient and slavish way, which is degrading and contrary to the commonly accepted norms of our society. They may not be your personal values, but MOST of society has come to agree that women are no longer concubines who serve at the whim of their man and grovel at his feet.

In addition, the medium of the message gives people the impression this is a wotc endorsed image...a dramatic change in the company’s artistic direction. (Yes, I realize wotc had no say in the creation of this image, but it appears to use several of their characters and is for a company-affiliated event).

You may have many female players who have come to appreciate magic for not showing women as the victims, but rather as strong role models who can kick butt and take charge. They may be sexy, but they are also confident and have their own identity. They see something like this and it's like a slap in the face. They may be disgusted at the thought that magic is going to move in this direction with its art and, as a result, the game loses some of the modest traction it has picked up among female gamers. That’s a very real concern, even if wotc did not endorse this product and had no say in its creation. It’s still tied to an event they are associated with and silence would mean they are ok with this message.

It’s not an issue of being “influenced” by something per say, but the message this sends to potential consumers. Wizards has a vested interest in attracting all gamers, not just the demographic that likes the scantily clad sex slave. You may not be bothered by this image, but I guarantee there are many potential customers who are turned off by it. Wotc can’t allow something like this to stand because the images are one of the first things someone new to the game will notice. If they get a negative impressions based on the art there’s a chance they will stay away from the game.

@airwalk – I am only debating the issue regarding this particular circumstance because that’s the message being discussed. There are things to be said about the examples you provide, but I’m trying not to deviate too much from the topic at hand.

I think I’ve done a fair job of trying to explain why this is a negative message from the perspective of wizards and why it is not appropriate for them to tolerate this kind of product when it is associated with one of their flagship events.

And yes, I realize there are women who seek out dom/sub relationships and find that appealing. I would argue that is a minority preference and, for the purpose of this debate, the majority opinion is the one that matters.

__________________
Wisconsin - smells like dairy air!

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Originally posted by iccarus:
You may not be bothered by this image, but I guarantee there are many potential customers who are turned off by it.

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Originally posted by iccarus:
I would argue that is a minority preference and, for the purpose of this debate, the majority opinion is the one that matters.

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This pretty much sums up the whole debate. The issue I find with it is the majority norm is likely not in the majority that finds this offensive. beyond that, even if someone does find this offensive, they shouldn't be allowed to force their opinions on me. If someone finds this objectionable, does that mean I shouldn't be allowed to not find this objectionable?

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Originally posted by caquaa:
This pretty much sums up the whole debate. The issue I find with it is the majority norm is likely not in the majority that finds this offensive. beyond that, even if someone does find this offensive, they shouldn't be allowed to force their opinions on me. If someone finds this objectionable, does that mean I shouldn't be allowed to not find this objectionable?

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[edit]: Now, what's interesting is that if you want to see a powerful woman, look at Elaine Chase. "That is not authorized and will not be given out." That's laying down the law right there.

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Originally posted by Tha Gunslinga:
It's really trashy, which isn't surprising considering that Pastimes is running things, and they're the ones who always make such a mess of Gencon and what-not.

[edit]: Now, what's interesting is that if you want to see a powerful woman, look at Elaine Chase. "That is not authorized and will not be given out." That's laying down the law right there.

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But w.e, I have nothing vested in this decision as I am neither going to this GP nor am I a woman.

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Originally posted by iccarus:
It's not the first of many horribly misogynistic/exploitative products marketed to mtg players and it probably will not be the last. I personally find it offensive and I think it’s unfortunate that the market exists to even make producing stuff like this worthwhile. I would be terribly embarrassed to use something like this in public and I would politely ask any opponent using something like this to turn it over.

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Originally posted by JesusChristMD:
Personally I find it interesting this mat crossed the line compared to a lot of art in the game.

But w.e, I have nothing vested in this decision as I am neither going to this GP nor am I a woman.

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Yup. Though these will just end up being sold on ebay or something for fantastic sums. Though those pornriffic sleeves that people buy does kinda make me uncomfortable at times (porn and sleeves should not mix, especially if I have to touch your cards at some point).

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Originally posted by Volcanon:

That terribad angel from the Commander boxes comes to mind.

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You mean the ginger? She's amazing!