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Originally posted by Pail42:
There's a difference between a proxy (sharpie on a real magic card), a counterfeit(completely fake), and a not-tournament-legal reprint(silver/gold bordered).

People who purchase counterfeits are hurting the game - the other two do not.

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For discussion's sake, if someone made a high quality proxy by blanking out the front of a magic card or getting some of the real ones out that their exist and used a high quality printer instead of a sharper on that real magic card to make their proxy would you consider that counterfeit or proxy?

Potential fake on imgur:

does the tap symbol look the same? often a way to tell is the tap symbol may be a little off and the places where 2 different shades of a single color meet aren't as distinct as they should be.

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Originally posted by LandDestroyer:
hard for me to tell. on the back, does the TM mark look a little fuzzier on the one you're questioning?

does the tap symbol look the same? often a way to tell is the tap symbol may be a little off and the places where 2 different shades of a single color meet aren't as distinct as they should be.

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Originally posted by spike777:
The TM symbol is quite a bit fuzzier and you can see the colored printing patterns through the symbol, unlike other MTG cards. Also, the most glaringly obvious to me, the font of 'The Gathering' next to the TM symbol is wrong. Instead of light blue outlined by thin black, it's light blue shadowed by red and outlined by thin black, as well as a larger font size compared to authentic cards.

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.... sigh. Where did you get this card again?

This is why I did an extensive review of all my duals once I got a loupe. Of concern is that those tests wouldn't catch everything I've read here. Luckily of my 70ish duals, about 40 are unl which should be safer, a few are in the product they were opened in still, 1 graded. The remaining few revised ones I have I consider low risk b/c either they are mp or cheaper duals.

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Originally posted by LandDestroyer:
.... sigh. Where did you get this card again?

This is why I did an extensive review of all my duals once I got a loupe. Of concern is that those tests wouldn't catch everything I've read here. Luckily of my 70ish duals, about 40 are unl which should be safer, a few are in the product they were opened in still, 1 graded. The remaining few revised ones I have I consider low risk b/c either they are mp or cheaper duals.

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A seller off ebay with 500+ refs who says he purchased it from a dealer 2 months ago who he deemed reputable. I trust no one but myself (and maybe giants like SCG and the like) when it comes to authenticating cards- I check everything I receive >$5.

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Originally posted by LandDestroyer:
For discussion's sake, if someone made a high quality proxy by blanking out the front of a magic card or getting some of the real ones out that their exist and used a high quality printer instead of a sharper on that real magic card to make their proxy would you consider that counterfeit or proxy?

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I consider a card a counterfeit unless it is blatantly obvious to the casual observer that the card is not genuine.

A Plains with "soul ring" written on it is obviously not a Sol Ring.

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Originally posted by Pail42:
I consider a card a counterfeit unless it is blatantly obvious to the casual observer that the card is not genuine.

A Plains with "soul ring" written on it is obviously not a Sol Ring.

A foil plains that has been erased and printed over with Sol Ring art is a counterfeit. You then write "Fake, not a real Sol Ring" on the counterfeit it would become a proxy.

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Fair but in the foil scenario if you're doing it with the older border it's known there isn't a foil a/b/u/r sol ring so in theory that should be clear it's not real right so shouldn't that still be a proxy? :-P

Not arguing just interested in hearing everyone's perspective. i'm totally ok with people using real looking proxies in a proxy event. My only concern comes from whether you made the proxy or if you paid someone else for the proxy. If you paid someone else that's giving more money to those people making those and that concerns me.

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Originally posted by LandDestroyer:
which loupe do you have? how much mag x? which one do you plan on getting?

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I just looked at the 1200 dpi scans and the two cards are night and day. I blew up both to see the printing patterns and the new card has colored circles through both the outer black border *and* the outer white border, both of which should appear solid. It also makes the font changes in 'TM' and 'The Gathering' more blatantly obvious.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MTG-Black-Lotus-/121609991072?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c508533a0#viTabs_0

Again, there are certainly fakes out there and we all need to be wary of people we don't know, but we also need to cool our jets a bit and not jump at the slightest little things. Most fakes are bad enough that they're easy to see in person, or at least have a tell-tale sign they're fake.

For me, it's all about the corners.

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Originally posted by coasterdude84:
I think you guys are going a little crazy with nitpicking cards. The printing of Revised (and other early sets) varied wildly from day-to-day. Alignments are off, colors are off, transfer rolls weren't cleaned like they should have been, etc. I see nothing in those Seas that looks questionable. I'm not saying they're necessarily real, but nothing in the scans looks out of place. I've got beta duals that don't look like each other, and I bought them at a time when they weren't worth faking, so I know they're legit. I've also got a ton of Unlimited junk. I could probably go through it and find 5 or 6 different variations of False Orders.

Again, there are certainly fakes out there and we all need to be wary of people we don't know, but we also need to cool our jets a bit and not jump at the slightest little things. Most fakes are bad enough that they're easy to see in person, or at least have a tell-tale sign they're fake.

For me, it's all about the corners.

EDIT: English is hard.

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Originally posted by jb231:
Pretty sure someone off this site sold me some fake duals, they feel a little off. I ended up holding them back when I sold off the bulk of my collection as I didn't want to sell anyone in this community cards I wasn't 100% confident in. I posted a while back to ask for advice but didn't get much, probably because the pics weren't the greatest quality http://classic.magictraders.com/ubb/Forum13/HTML/031145.html

It's too bad this place deletes all your old PMs since I bought them here but have no way of finding out who sold them to me as I bought a bunch of duals all the around the same time. I didn't really question them at the time since they were from a member with a lot of refs/long history on here and mixed in with some obviously real duals (hard to fake the kind of wear a SP/MP card has).

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at initial glance that looks fine except maybe the corners but sometimes that's tough b/c...well...play. I Here is a copy of my MINT scrubland along with the starter it was opened in to compare

http://imgur.com/w9y5yOq

http://imgur.com/edrsCqQ

http://imgur.com/d3EEOB6

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Originally posted by spike777:
Cool, instead of sending it back to the seller, I'll send it to you for $200. If you're down with putting your money where your mouth is, I bet I can find several hundred copies of duals that look just fine across the table through a sleeve and would be happy to take your money for them. Unless, that is, you're not willing to buy fakes for full retail price?

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Originally posted by jellyfishfanatic:
Easy there killer...he's just stating an observation. He's right that the old printings had variations among them. I have 4 Force of Will, all that I can verify are real and even between them, there are slight differences amongst the 4. Print quality, cut, cardstock...all varied batch to batch back then. The process is much more refined now. Go back and look at anything from Revised, Alliances, whatever pre-95 set and you could probably easily find variation from card to card at some level.

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Originally posted by LandDestroyer:
at initial glance that looks fine except maybe the corners but sometimes that's tough b/c...well...play. I Here is a copy of my MINT scrubland along with the starter it was opened in to compare

http://imgur.com/w9y5yOq

http://imgur.com/edrsCqQ

http://imgur.com/d3EEOB6

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Originally posted by jb231:

Yea I dunno, they pass all the traditional tests they just feel.. glossy compared to other revised cards I've got around. Issue is the revised cards I've got aren't brand new so I guess it's possible they're not fake. I tried reaching out to a few people on the forum directly to see if someone could verify them if I sent them but nobody really wanted anything to do with it. Is there anyone that can 100% differentiate if they're real or fake around I could mail them to?

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eh, you could pay like $8 each to get them all graded?

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Originally posted by spike777:
I understand there are printing differences. What I don't understand is the 'it looks fine from 2 feet away, so I'm sure they are completely real and have no idea why you all think they're fake' attitude when the cards being called into question are actually fake and quite easy to with a loupe and the right direction. I understand that some people over react to fakes, but perhaps that's because there are a huge number of them floating around right now that are very good quality to the naked eye. Stating that they look just fine is just being willfully ignorant. Duals are only 'worth' $200 because we place value on something being special because wizards printed it 20 years ago and there being a limited supply. Fakes are not worth $200 and the skepticism about whether a copy you received is real is warranted. He suggested that it was stupid because it looked just fine to the naked eye, which I thought was ridiculous. I don't even believe that he actually believes that statement.

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I said nothing in the scan jumps out at me, not that they are clearly real. I was specifically referring to people that jumped all over it because the border of the trademark on the back looked a little more red than black. That's a very normal variation and nothing to be concerned about. It's always better to inspect cards in person. Cool your jets.

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Originally posted by jb231:

Yea I dunno, they pass all the traditional tests they just feel.. glossy compared to other revised cards I've got around. Issue is the revised cards I've got aren't brand new so I guess it's possible they're not fake. I tried reaching out to a few people on the forum directly to see if someone could verify them if I sent them but nobody really wanted anything to do with it. Is there anyone that can 100% differentiate if they're real or fake around I could mail them to?

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Most of these fakes so far have been BAD. Like, sweet fried chicken eating jesus bad. I got two Force of Wills that were entirely different hues of blue, and had a coating like the writable scotch tape.

I got a Power 9 set that made me bust out laughing when I opened the package, and some duals in the next day that were just as bad. They MISERABLY failed the bend test. Just bending them a little bit put huge creases across the card.

Now, that said: I bought a Mox Opal since I had a set to compare to, and a Black Lotus because Black Lotus. I'd have been fooled by the Mox Opal were I just flipping through a collection to buy. I was pretty floored until I put it next to my real ones, then the differences began to stand out. The frame was a wee bit larger, the colors were just a bit dull, and when you looked close, everything was just ever so slightly blurry. Passed the light test and you could see the grain of the paper just like a real card. Passed the bend test perfectly.

The Lotus did not pass the light test. MUCH thicker cardstock. One clear indication of other faked white border cards was seeing where the white border had been printed. This Lotus did not have that, but a Mox Jet I got before did. It has a waxier coating than the Opal. I found that odd since they came from the same seller, and the Mox Opal feels like a real card. The backs of both cards was less crisp than real ones, but just barely. Your memory would fool you if you didn't have one to compare them to.

If anyone has a link to a seller that is selling GOOD fakes, please PM me the link. I know that people say to not support the counterfeiters, but you can say that all day long, and people are still going to buy them. If you own a shop, or you are doing higher end trading, you NEED to buy some of these fakes, and stay on top of things to protect yourself. I would not have said that before getting the Mox Opal and Black Lotus, because everything else has been so awful. After getting those, I ordered a 30x jewelers loupe (Which has not arrived yet).

It's going to get to a point where we need to do higher end trades in person, with tools at our disposal to inspect cards more thoroughly. You and I might not be unscrupulous jerks, but that guy over there might be.

http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/33bac2/new_batch_of_chinese_fakes_be st_worst_ones_yet/

edit: it was mods who deleted his previous post. he has created a new one here
http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/33d1gl/new_fakes_with_scans_mods_de leted_the_last_post/

with text
I'm not sure why the mods deleted my last post. I'm not advertising for counterfeiters. People who want to buy fakes already know where to get them and how they look. I'm posting this to educate the honest people who are getting ripped off by frauds.
Here are some scans of the new fakes... Really take note of the FoW and tell me you would be able to tell that from a real. In hand I can tell because of the slight extra gloss, the edges, and the back is more like a newer style back. All the old tells are gone. The Wasteland is a little more obvious under magnification, but in hand you can't see any of those issues. This is much more convincing than previous batches where you could easily see the crappy printing on the set symbols and text. I think the new cards are still using "process" printing across the face, but it's MUCH better than it used to be.
MODS: If you're going to delete my post again, please at least tell me why.

Edit 2: and the text of the original post