quote:

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Originally posted by spike777:
I don't think that seller's position is legally binding.

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I'm also going to call fake on that Lotus. No one is just going to toss an Unlimited Lotus of that condition up on eBay and not research the card thoroughly. Only something like 3500 of each Unlimited rare were printed, right? So given time, damage, spilled drinks, cards getting graded, etc, we're to believe that someone just put one of maybe 2000 cards left in the world on eBay with little scrutiny for such a low price?

quote:

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Originally posted by DJSmurfy:
This is going to be an ongoing problem, particularly in part due to eBay downsampling images so much.

I'm also going to call fake on that Lotus. No one is just going to toss an Unlimited Lotus of that condition up on eBay and not research the card thoroughly. Only something like 3500 of each Unlimited rare were printed, right? So given time, damage, spilled drinks, cards getting graded, etc, we're to believe that someone just put one of maybe 2000 cards left in the world on eBay with little scrutiny for such a low price?

Also, that glare. Source: The three fakes sitting in front of me right now that all pass the water and bend tests.

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what tests did your fakes fail?

quote:

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Originally posted by LandDestroyer:
what tests did your fakes fail?

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Light test. Most of them fail it miserably. I ripped one in half, and it had a black core.

The ones I posted the Imgur album of the other day have too much light passing through. Those have NO core.

I just checked another one, and a roughly appropriate amount of light passes through, but you don't see any paper grain at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjn8ECzd9P8

quote:

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Originally posted by jamestosetti:
Has anyone determined what happens to the prices of cards if the counterfeits become indistinguishable? Would this not decimate the market value of cards overnight? What is the likelihood of this happening? What would WOTC's response be?

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*IF* they were to literally become indistinguishable it'd essentially be like reprinting them in a standard set but worse so yes it would completely tank values. Nobody can say what the likelihood is though. Some people will be adamant that will never happen b/c they don't want to believe it's possible. some will say we're really close. i'm afraid wotc isn't taking it seriously enough and it's already hard to fight copyright infringement in China (not just a wotc,hasbro problem). wotc's response may eventually be getting rid of the reserve list. now whether they'd do anything like make an offer 'send in your real power and we'll trade it in for a new mox jet with anti counterfeit stuff'...they probably won't ever do that but they could. just very unlikely. they don't really care about legacy/vintage cards...they only care about printing standard cards to sell and not getting a class action lawsuit filed against them by collectors by getting rid of the reserve list.

quote:

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Originally posted by DJSmurfy:
Only something like 3500 of each Unlimited rare were printed,right?

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You are thinking beta. Unlimited numbers are around 18,500.

quote:

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Originally posted by LandDestroyer:
*IF* they were to literally become indistinguishable it'd essentially be like reprinting them in a standard set but worse so yes it would completely tank values. Nobody can say what the likelihood is though. Some people will be adamant that will never happen b/c they don't want to believe it's possible. some will say we're really close. i'm afraid wotc isn't taking it seriously enough and it's already hard to fight copyright infringement in China (not just a wotc,hasbro problem). wotc's response may eventually be getting rid of the reserve list. now whether they'd do anything like make an offer 'send in your real power and we'll trade it in for a new mox jet with anti counterfeit stuff'...they probably won't ever do that but they could. just very unlikely. they don't really care about legacy/vintage cards...they only care about printing standard cards to sell and not getting a class action lawsuit filed against them by collectors by getting rid of the reserve list.

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the NFL, MLB, NHL etc. aren't really stopping the incoming fake jersey replicas. They have worked with police though to sting those that buy them for the sake of reselling them. That said, if you buy one as a consumer, theyre not coming to your door. I could see a similar scenario with MTG cards: if you bought an indistinguishable fake to play with, no one will ever know, but if you bought 1000 fakes to resell, you could get caught.

edit:

and to answer the question above me...

(in best Dr Evil voice....)

One hundred million billion shaba laba lou... millions

quote:

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Originally posted by jamestosetti:
Has anyone determined what happens to the prices of cards if the counterfeits become indistinguishable? Would this not decimate the market value of cards overnight? What is the likelihood of this happening? What would WOTC's response be?

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I've already seen some dealers online that aren't buying certain high value cards as they don't want to go through the hoops of trying to get their money back if they get passed a fake. Some of the fakes are pretty good from what I hear, I've heard there's a wasteland out there that's pretty damn close to perfect for example. Seems like every 1-2 months the latest wave just gets that much better, I'd say by the end of the year there will be perfect fakes out there for sale at $1-2/card.

To be honest when I started seeing how good the fakes were I decided I didn't need to be sitting on >10K worth of cards when the majority of my MTG is played on cockatrice anyways. Almost every high value card in my collection increased substantially in value so I bailed out while I still could net a healthy profit. I can see it being difficult to unload staples in the future simply because everyone is going to be super paranoid. Who wants to buy a $300 card when you can buy a fake, double sleeve it and play in all the same tournaments as before with none the wiser. Are judges really going to start un-sleeving cards to perform tests, I highly doubt it.

quote:

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Originally posted by stab107:
You are thinking beta. Unlimited numbers are around 18,500.

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quote:

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Originally posted by DJSmurfy:

Ahh, ok. I thought it was 1500 Alpha, 1500 Beta, 3500 Unlimited.

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Per Crystal Keep:
1,100 Alpha Rare
4,500 Alpha Uncommon
16,000 Alpha Common
85,500 Alpha Land (per picture)

3,200 Beta Rare
13,500 Beta Uncommon
48,000 Beta Common
171,500 Beta Land (per picture)

5,000 International Collector's Set
10,000 Collector's Set

4,300 Limited Rare (Alpha+Beta)
18,000 Limited Uncommon (Alpha+Beta)
64,000 Limited Common (Alpha+Beta)
228,500 Limited Land (Alpha+Beta) (per picture)

18,500 Unlimited Rare
68,000 Unlimited Uncommon
244,500 Unlimited Common
872,500 Unlimited Land (per picture)

289,000 Revised Rare
1,012,000 Revised Uncommon
3,657,000 Revised Common
12,969,500 Revised Land (per picture)

We had some discussion here
http://classic.magictraders.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/026438.html

quote:

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Originally posted by jamestosetti:
Has anyone determined what happens to the prices of cards if the counterfeits become indistinguishable? Would this not decimate the market value of cards overnight? What is the likelihood of this happening? What would WOTC's response be?

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quote:

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Originally posted by LandDestroyer:

872,500 Unlimited Land (per picture)

[/B]

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quote:

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Originally posted by aethertech:
If this number is near to correct, I own roughly, 0.0002% of all unlimited basics. Does that get me any street cred in this world?

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If they are all grade 10, and BGS..not of those pauper PSA grade 10s

quote:

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Originally posted by LandDestroyer:
If they are all grade 10, and BGS..not of those pauper PSA grade 10s

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quote:

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Originally posted by aethertech:
Uh....they are, NM-...at best? I can dip the borders in gold or silver paint and make them all sorts of shiny and pimp, would that help?

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I'm not sure it'd get you 'street cred' but you can become 'that guy'

https://www.facebook.com/groups/266058326920454/

quote:

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Originally posted by LandDestroyer:
FYI, for more information on how to spot fakes and which sellers to avoid, you may want to join this group.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/266058326920454/

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That page doesn't display for me.

quote:

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Originally posted by Rabid Wo1f:
That page doesn't display for me.

This content is currently unavailable
The page you requested cannot be displayed right now. It may be temporarily unavailable, the link you clicked on may have expired, or you may not have permission to view this page.

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Hmm. Onar may need to invite you. I've linked to it via a thread on the MOTL fb page
https://www.facebook.com/groups/7111992674/

if you can't get access maybe add Onar and ask him to invite you?

quote:

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Originally posted by stab107:
The amount of useful information there is staggering. I am glad to be privy to it, thank you.

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Yup. It is a good place for information. I haven't had time yet to update my post here with additional information I've learned but that page has lots of good info