Author
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Topic: More discussion on fakes. What are you seeing?
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LandDestroyer Member
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posted March 25, 2015 11:50 AM
I posted this here on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/30a4xa/what_are_all_of_the_differen t_fakes_you_all_are/So, we know fakes have existed for as long as magic has. Some better/some worse. Each different run produced by different people or at different times with different methods has a different way or ways to tell the are fake. In the past year the ones I've personally seen include: Dual lands shipped from the Philippines. 61 diferrent cards shipped from China Description of those: The duals from the Philippines I actually received from an auction I bought. It was someone claiming to be a consignment seller (he sells other people's stuff on ebay for them - seller HopeToLast). He claimed the cards had been in screw down cases when there was a flood. They were described as water damaged. They did this because the texture on the card was a clear give-away and the color was off. The cards were very rigid and didn't pass the bend test, however the print pattern looked correct The Chinese cards I was able to inspect fall in to 2 categories in my mind. Modern legal cards & older cards. The print pattern is kind of correct in that it has the signature pattern for the patented printing process...but it has this all over the card. So where the black or white borders should just be solid black or white the fakes have specs of color in them. They let light pass through, but not quite as much as real cards. They feel more like 'poker cards' as they have a glossy feel to them and aren't quite as stiff as MTG cards. The list I was told exists for these include (duals all revised - power all unlimited except the 2nd lotus): Underground sea Volcanic Island Tropical Island Tundra Bayou Badlands Taiga Savannah Scrubland Plateau Tarmogoyf mma Tarmogoyf fs Dark Confidant rav Dark Confidant mma Flusterstorm Force of Will Jace, the Mind Sculptor Nobel Hierarch Vendilion Clique original Snapcaster Mage Black Lotus unlimited Black Lotus beta Thoughtseize theros Thoughtseize Lorwyn Verdant Catacombs Scalding Tarn Misty Rainforest Grove of the Burnwillows Spellskite Mox Jet Mox Emerald Mox Pearl Mox Ruby Mox Sapphire Ancestral Recall Time Walk Timetwister Time Vault Demonic Tutor Imperial Recruiter Forcefield Mana Drain The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale Library of Alexandria Moat Bazaar of Baghdad Karakas Sneak Attack Gaea's Cradle Wasteland City of Traitors Juzam Djinn Mishra's Workshop Nether Void (white border - oops?) The Abyss Maze of Ith Mana Crypt Lion's Eye Diamond Candelabra of Tawnos Mox Diamond Blinkmoth Nexus Inkmoth Nexus All were english. Either the time vault or the forcefield were black border, I'm not sure. Though the list above was provided, my source didn't say he actually saw the misty rainforest or the wasteland. From what I saw the older cards you could tell pretty easily the colors were off so I'm not too concerned about those. I suspect people will just use those for proxies to play with or get altered, though I am concerned about people altering these to help pass off as real in a perfect fit. Make sure to physically touch any cards you buy, take them out of sleeves. The cards with the modern face were much more difficult to tell were fakes. The colors looked right. The only good way to tell they were fakes were to either look at them through a jewelers loupe specifically looking to see if the borders were right or touch them. However some of these like theros thoughtseize, inkmoth/blinkmoth are cheap enough many people might not worry about taking them out of a perfect fit. Luckily since these bend a little bit more, I suspect they might curve in a perfect fit so look for that. I know with the rash of fakes coming out of China we've seen other but similar cards lists. For example, this person didnt' seem to have Show and tell but might in the future. I've also heard about shock lands and additional fetch lands being printed. I've also seen a lot of fakes showing up on ebay lately that concern me, including FBB duals Unlimited duals other higher value cards Usually these are coming from outside the US including countries like the Czech republic, etc, but some I saw (including Unl duals) were within the US which concerned me even more. What Sources of fakes are you seeing list of cards did they include how can you tell those are fake etc Are there other centralized locations people are storing this information? Edit: Here are some pictures of me comparing their fake cards to my real ones: Tarmogoyf (MMA) http://imgur.com/HJiF4dD Bazaar of baghdad, timetwister, tabernacle http://imgur.com/VEhL1Gc Image of other cards (all fakes) including power etc http://imgur.com/xFaQwnJ If needed I can try and get more pictures
[Edited 1 times, lastly by LandDestroyer on March 25, 2015]
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hilikuS Member
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posted March 25, 2015 08:32 PM
Some fakes turned up at a local comic shop in my town. All revised duals. I didn't get a chance to see them, but a couple buddies did, and they apparently weren't great fakes. It sounded to me like they were a lot like the duals that came from the Philippines you got.I hope the comic shop didn't pay too much for em, because they're boned.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by hilikuS on March 25, 2015]
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chapman24 Member
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posted March 26, 2015 11:00 PM
there has been some fakes turning up in the Denver, CO area may or may not be just one dude trying to pass them off, he has been black listed from most shops in the area
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spike777 Member
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posted March 27, 2015 06:38 AM
I got a temple Garden and sacred foundry off eBay, both the playing card-slick fakes. I don't really understand why people are still trying to sell/trade them. They're clearly fakes once they're out of sleeves and you can feel them. However, the ones I've handled would easily pass for real in double sleeved in decks. You can't tell at all from a foot away through a sleeve.
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LandDestroyer Member
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posted March 27, 2015 07:15 AM
quote: Originally posted by chapman24: there has been some fakes turning up in the Denver, CO area may or may not be just one dude trying to pass them off, he has been black listed from most shops in the area
Can you describe the fakes? Like which cards were they and how could you tell? Anyone get from him where he got them? quote: Originally posted by spike777: I got a temple Garden and sacred foundry off eBay, both the playing card-slick fakes. I don't really understand why people are still trying to sell/trade them. They're clearly fakes once they're out of sleeves and you can feel them. However, the ones I've handled would easily pass for real in double sleeved in decks. You can't tell at all from a foot away through a sleeve.
Ya, I've seen some people on reddit post about some shocks like that. Was the only way to tell on the shocks to feel them? Have you looked at any through a jewelers loupe? I'm afraid that stuff people just often trade for and don't take out of people's perfect fits on cheaper items like shocks. Any more details you can provide? __________________
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LandDestroyer Member
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posted March 27, 2015 11:47 AM
I was told today apparently there are 3 new lots of fakes and it's kind of scary:List A: Scalding Tarn Misty Rainforest Verdant Catacombs Marsh Flats Arid Mesa Flooded Strand Polluted Delta Wooded Foothills Bloodstained Mire Windswept Heath Tarmogoyf Dark confident Cryptic Command Linvala, Keeper of Silence Karn Liberated Twilight Mire Crucible of Worlds Flooded Grove Cascade Bluffs Azusa, Lost but Seeking Sword of Light and Shadow Sword of Feast and Famine Sword of War and Peace Threads of Disloyalty Scapeshift Thoughtseize Ensnaring Bridge Arcbound Ravager Spellskite Sunken Ruins Voice of Resurgence Splinter Twin Blood Moon Batterskull Primeval Titan Elspeth,Sun's Champion bitterblossom Remand Blinkmoth Nexus Inlinkmoth Nexus Snapcaster Mage Phyrexian Obliterator geist of saint traft Chalice of the Void Abrupt Decay Kikj-Jiki, Mirror Breaker Steam Vents Sacred Foundry Temple Garden Overgrown Tomb Breeding Pool Blood crypt Godless Shrine Hallowed Fountain watery grave Stomping Ground List B: Tundra Underground Sea Badlands Taiga Savannah Scrubland Volcanic Island Bayou Plateau Tropical Island The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale Chains of Mephistopheles Moat Tarmogoyf Imperial Recruiter Imperial Seal Gaea's Cradle Rishadan Port Force of Will Jace, the mind Sculptor Lion's Eye Diamond Dark Confidant Wasteland City of Traitors Vendilion Clique x Show and Tell Sneak Attack Stifle Liliana of the Veil Mox Opal Kozilek, Butcher of Truth Sword of Fire and Ice Damnation Flusterstorm Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre Fulminator Mage Emrakul, the Aeons Torn Horizon Canopy Umezawa's Jittle Grove of the Burnwillows Mox Diamond Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite Sinkhole Sensei's Divining Top Glimpse of Nature Iona, Shield of Emerie Leyline of Sanctity Stoneforge Mystic Entomb Goblin Guide AEther Vial True-Name Nemesis Natural Oeder Nobel Hierarch Greselbrand Karakas
List C:
Tundra Underground Sea Badlands Taiga Savannah Scrubland Volcanic Island Bayou Plateau Tropical Island Mox Jet Mox Emerald Mox Pearl Mox Ruby Mox Sapphire Black Lotus White border Ancest Recall Time Walk Time Twist Time Vault Demonic Tutor Imperial seal Imperial Recruiter Black Lotus black border Forcefield Force of Will Mana Drain The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale Library of Alexandria Moat Bazaar of Baghdad Karakas Sneak Attack Grea's cradle Wasteland City of Traitors Juzam Djinn Mishras Workshop Nether Void The Abyss Maze of Ith Mana Crypt Lion's Eye Diamond Candelabra of Tawnos Mox Diamond Show and Tell Chains of Mephistopheles Liliana of the Veil Jace, The mind Sculptor Tolarian Academy Tarmogoyf Vampiric Tutor Misty rainforest Scalding Tarn Snapcaster Mage Dark confident __________________
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flam flawless Member
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posted March 27, 2015 03:41 PM
Thing about these fakes is, if they start getting altered, they're gonna be almost impossible to tell because of the paint messing with the thickness and it could even cover the problematic areas enough to pass.
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LandDestroyer Member
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posted March 27, 2015 03:45 PM
quote: Originally posted by flam flawless: Thing about these fakes is, if they start getting altered, they're gonna be almost impossible to tell because of the paint messing with the thickness and it could even cover the problematic areas enough to pass.
That's what I've been worried the most about :-| __________________
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gaeacradle Member
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posted March 27, 2015 03:57 PM
quote: Originally posted by LandDestroyer: That's what I've been worried the most about :-|
I have started a policy of valueing altered cards at $0. Even if I trust the other person, the people that I will eventually trade/sell these to may adopt the same policy and I will be stuck with them. I also think that my policy will eventually be adopted if fakes are being altered in large numbers.
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spike777 Member
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posted March 27, 2015 03:58 PM
quote: Originally posted by LandDestroyer: Can you describe the fakes? Like which cards were they and how could you tell? Anyone get from him where he got them?Ya, I've seen some people on reddit post about some shocks like that. Was the only way to tell on the shocks to feel them? Have you looked at any through a jewelers loupe? I'm afraid that stuff people just often trade for and don't take out of people's perfect fits on cheaper items like shocks. Any more details you can provide?
Yeah, I actually thought they were real at first before I de-sleeved them because they passed both the loupe and black light tests. The printing patterns are at least extremely similar, if not identical. The 'swirls/circles' are present in the colored areas, the black letters and borders are solid. Compared to a normal card under a loupe, I couldn't tell the difference. Then I picked up one of my shocks in one hand and the new ones in the other and it was obvious- the new ones felt like bicycle playing cards. If you hold them at an angle in the light, their faces also reflect light differently and seem to 'curve' near the edges (they bend light differently at the edges). But straight on they look identical in the light.
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LandDestroyer Member
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posted March 27, 2015 04:34 PM
quote: Originally posted by spike777: Yeah, I actually thought they were real at first before I de-sleeved them because they passed both the loupe and black light tests. The printing patterns are at least extremely similar, if not identical. The 'swirls/circles' are present in the colored areas, the black letters and borders are solid. Compared to a normal card under a loupe, I couldn't tell the difference. Then I picked up one of my shocks in one hand and the new ones in the other and it was obvious- the new ones felt like bicycle playing cards. If you hold them at an angle in the light, their faces also reflect light differently and seem to 'curve' near the edges (they bend light differently at the edges). But straight on they look identical in the light.
Interesting. Especially interested you couldn't tell a different through a loupe. Did you look at the black border and see if it was solid black or had color specs in it? The fakes I've seen that were like bicycle cards had specs of color in the black border. Ya, I don't trade for alters unless it's a cheap card that I collect and I can get it cheap (BOPs, Grim Lavas, DRS, bolts, stp, counterspells that would all probably be about it) Of more concern is that most people aren't going to be as diligent as you were when trading for $9 shock lands. I've never used my loupe in a trade for shocks but after this last list came out I probably will __________________
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Balian Baron of Ibelan Member
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posted March 29, 2015 04:42 AM
I just picked up an Umezawa's Jitte on eBay for $23, yes, $23. As soon as I slid it out of the top holder you could tell it was fake. Super waxy coating (like a Bicycle playing card). Edges of card have an ever so slightly bend to it. After conducting the bend test, which this bitch passed, I did the light test....OMG what a fake. I also traded a member here about a year ago for 2 Mutavaults. Cards arrived and they both looked off from one another....one was a dirty Chinese fake and I,never would've known had I not had the other mutavault in the same deal. Scary stuff....be smart.
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spike777 Member
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posted March 29, 2015 09:30 AM
quote: Originally posted by LandDestroyer: Interesting. Especially interested you couldn't tell a different through a loupe. Did you look at the black border and see if it was solid black or had color specs in it? The fakes I've seen that were like bicycle cards had specs of color in the black border.Ya, I don't trade for alters unless it's a cheap card that I collect and I can get it cheap (BOPs, Grim Lavas, DRS, bolts, stp, counterspells that would all probably be about it) Of more concern is that most people aren't going to be as diligent as you were when trading for $9 shock lands. I've never used my loupe in a trade for shocks but after this last list came out I probably will
You can't see swirls under a loupe on the black border, just like normal cards. Much less light passes through compared to real cards when held up to a light. Also, under a loupe the black letters are fuzzier at the edges, where real cards have very very sharp edges on the letters. Hope this helps.
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LandDestroyer Member
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posted March 30, 2015 07:28 AM
quote: Originally posted by spike777: You can't see swirls under a loupe on the black border, just like normal cards. Much less light passes through compared to real cards when held up to a light. Also, under a loupe the black letters are fuzzier at the edges, where real cards have very very sharp edges on the letters.Hope this helps.
The fact that you couldn't tell any difference in the border gives me even more concern. In the ones I saw there were specs of color in the border whether bb or wb. __________________
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spike777 Member
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posted March 30, 2015 07:02 PM
I just received an underground sea in the mail. If you could, could you look at these 2 pictures?http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/spike777/media/po ssible%20fakes/0C9304B0-0C9B-473C-871F-8A9C4B27A416_zpspnrhrzb0.jpg.html http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/spike777/media/po ssible%20fakes/E57CABFE-F847-4636-9328-F567E765CE9B_zpsewa71ssu.jpg.html The first shows the fronts: the potential fake is the cleaner card and has a black outer line that has a swirl pattern through it, not a clean dark black line like my other duals. The second shows the backs; the cleaner one has a TM that is slightly out of focus; the 'the gathering' is also out of focus. Here are 1200 dpi scans: http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y401/spike777/underground%20sea%20front%201200_zpssgzxg2bv.jpg http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y401/spike777/underground%20sea%20back%201200_zpsx4487tvw.jpg This card feels only *slightly* glossier than the presumably authentic ones I'm comparing them to. Could someone please confirm my suspicion before I report it to ebay? I really appreciate your help. Edit: I also believe the circle printing pattern is slightly neater, as opposed to revised duals that are a bit more 'free form.' However, I wouldn't swear by this fact alone. Edit 2: after getting super paranoid and re-louping all my duals, is the green line next to the black outer boarder on this taiga normal? http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/spike777/media/po ssible%20fakes/A85FA451-15ED-4738-B237-7FDF02D211D0_zpslwdshdyr.jpg.html
[Edited 3 times, lastly by spike777 on March 31, 2015]
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LandDestroyer Member
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posted March 31, 2015 06:44 AM
I would look for you...but you used photobucket which my computer doesn't play well with... it loaded the first couple but not the rest. i'd be concerned about what looks like a difference in color in the black border on the back. one thing i think i forgot to mention in my post is that the black border on the back was inconsistent in the 'shade of black'. if you lined the fakes up you could see differences. the color looked richer i think than the fake sea i saw though but would need to see more pics__________________
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killakyle Member
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posted March 31, 2015 07:44 AM
A good friend of mine traded away his FOW and 2 THS Thoughtseize's for a NM Bayou Revised. It literally was identical to his other Bayou, passed bend, light, and jeweler's loupe test. It was only until I noticed that the font of the artist's name was slightly thicker, and only did I notice this because he stacked two of them on his playmat directly next to each other that the text looked ever so slightly inconsistent. He was extremely so hesitant to do the water test, which is what I recommended. Sadly, upon doing the water test, it was clear it was fake. This was the most convincing proxy I have seen yet. We proceeded to do the tear test and part of the card tear was in fact blue, but more purple than blue compared to an uncommon we teared in comparison. Watch out for duals especially, a lot of work has gone into making passable proxies.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by killakyle on March 31, 2015]
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chaos021 Member
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posted March 31, 2015 07:58 AM
I can't wrap my head around this, but if these fakes are becoming so prevalent, why are prices still so high? This is the type of event that would cause cards on the reserved list to go down or at least stagnate.__________________ "Message to women worldwide: Girls....we're stupid. We don't like games. We don't know games. We can't read minds. Say it like you mean or STFU." -rockondonMy Sale Thread
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LandDestroyer Member
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posted March 31, 2015 09:06 AM
Well, all the fakes I've seen didn't physically feel right. That has reassured me some...but if that bayou 'felt' right I'm concerned more.Of note, the new fakes have either black or blue core paper, the newest having blue I think though I haven't tested that for myself. As always I would not use the tear test ... HA ... HA... sadface. I'm sorry for your loss __________________
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spike777 Member
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posted March 31, 2015 09:36 AM
quote: Originally posted by LandDestroyer: I would look for you...but you used photobucket which my computer doesn't play well with... it loaded the first couple but not the rest. i'd be concerned about what looks like a difference in color in the black border on the back. one thing i think i forgot to mention in my post is that the black border on the back was inconsistent in the 'shade of black'. if you lined the fakes up you could see differences. the color looked richer i think than the fake sea i saw though but would need to see more pics
What hosting site works well for you? Trying to get independent confirmation before I drop it back in the mail to the seller.
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killakyle Member
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posted March 31, 2015 10:06 AM
Ive come in contact with many of fakes, but the reason I posted is because it did in fact feel real, no texture difference to be found, and that is what utterly left me stunned.
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LandDestroyer Member
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posted March 31, 2015 10:44 AM
quote: Originally posted by spike777: What hosting site works well for you? Trying to get independent confirmation before I drop it back in the mail to the seller.
http://imgur.com/ quote: Originally posted by killakyle: Ive come in contact with many of fakes, but the reason I posted is because it did in fact feel real, no texture difference to be found, and that is what utterly left me stunned.
Scary. Do you have pics? __________________
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killakyle Member
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posted March 31, 2015 10:47 AM
I do not, however my friend might. as far as taking pictures, the card was reduced to shreds after the tear test, he was not happy getting jipped out of $150 worth of cards.
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LandDestroyer Member
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posted March 31, 2015 12:22 PM
Related but different question. I know lots of people play proxy tournaments. Is anyone using these as just proxies and not trying to rip people? Like for casual play, proxy tournaments, cube/power cubes, EDH, etc? I know lots of people have said if wotc did a gold/silver border power cube they'd buy it. I'm ok with trustworthy people picking up proxies as long as they stay in the hands of people who aren't going to pass them off as real. Unfortunately since WOTC hasn't provided a proper product and b/c the reserve list has led to such high secondary market valuations these counterfeiters are seeing real reasons to put more money into high quality fakes and the demand for proxies gives them capital to improve their processes which could cause more problems in the future.
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Pail42 Member
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posted March 31, 2015 12:33 PM
There's a difference between a proxy (sharpie on a real magic card), a counterfeit(completely fake), and a not-tournament-legal reprint(silver/gold bordered).People who purchase counterfeits are hurting the game - the other two do not.
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