quote:

---

Originally posted by vatechguy:
This was the imgur link from today btw: http://imgur.com/a/fZwvM

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Wow, I can't identify any as being definitely fake. That's amazing.

http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/33bac2/new_batch_of_chinese_fakes_best_worst_ones_yet/

http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/33d1gl/new_fakes_with_scans_mods_deleted_the_last_post/

http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/33cv8l/possibly_deleted_chinese_proxies_post/

http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/33cbu4/tournament_report_i_used_counterfeit_cards_at_a/

Man, if the Chinese ever get around to 2-state printing where they print the text solidly on top, stop printing the white or black border as non solid, and stop making the cards slightly glossy these things will be insane. They probably aren't far at getting the right amount of light to pass through as well.

I bet all the 'alters' I keep seeing pop up include lots of fakes that people are altering to make it seem like they are real (hide the ways to tell).

DO NOT BUY ALTERS. PERIOD.

I picked up a new batch of fakes that are GOOD. I ordered a random pack of 10, and they screwed up my order, and sent my 108, haha.

These are even the "old" fakes that LandDestroyer linked to, and some people would still be fooled by about half of them.

One thing to note is that some of them WERE NOT scans. There is a spelling error on the two Black Lotuses, and another typo on the Inkmoth Nexus. The Force of Will, Juzam Djinn, Abyss, Nether Void, Demonic Tutor, and Chains of Mephistopheles are all using the wrong mana symbols.

There were several others that I luckily had real cards to side by side test against, and the biggest tell was that the fakes are VERY glossy, and the black borders are much darker.

quote:

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Originally posted by DJSmurfy:
I quit using Reddit for reasons of desiring to keep my sanity, so I missed those threads.

I picked up a new batch of fakes that are GOOD. I ordered a random pack of 10, and they screwed up my order, and sent my 108, haha.

These are even the "old" fakes that LandDestroyer linked to, and some people would still be fooled by about half of them.

One thing to note is that some of them WERE NOT scans. There is a spelling error on the two Black Lotuses, and another typo on the Inkmoth Nexus. The Force of Will, Juzam Djinn, Abyss, Nether Void, Demonic Tutor, and Chains of Mephistopheles are all using the wrong mana symbols.

There were several others that I luckily had real cards to side by side test against, and the biggest tell was that the fakes are VERY glossy, and the black borders are much darker.

I ripped apart the Batterskull because it looked like ass, and it had a black core rather than blue. They fail the light test miserably. They pass the water test. They crease just a wee bit on the bend test. They also pick up fingerprints extremely easily due to the gloss.

---

thanks for the info! spelling errors?!? really?!? any additional info/scans you could provide would be appreciated.

I agree with you about the alters. Let that stupid fad die, particularly since it lets people with fakes pass them off even more easily.

quote:

---

Originally posted by DJSmurfy:
I don't have a scanner, but I'll get the best pictures I can with my phone.

I agree with you about the alters. Let that stupid fad die, particularly since it lets people with fakes pass them off even more easily.

Edit: Imgur link

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by DJSmurfy:
I don't have a scanner, but I'll get the best pictures I can with my phone.

I agree with you about the alters. Let that stupid fad die, particularly since it lets people with fakes pass them off even more easily.

Edit: Imgur link

---

wow, the new batch of fake inkmoths are WORSE than previous batches. perhaps there were problems after wotc shut down the first shop and they transitioned to a new shop.the previous inkmoths were correct, in fact they were 1 of the best fakes. can't tell the difference w/o a loupe. that is hillarious.

of note: check out the symbols on the modern masters cards. the dark confidant correctly has a white border on the symbol. those other cards don't.

I don't want to give any seller names or sites unless given the go ahead by Gunslinga, as I am regarding him as the site administrator, but I do want to reiterate my position on these fakes: You and I may be honest and upright M:tG players and traders, but we might not be able to say the same for this other fella' over here. It's easy to say "Don't buy these, and the sellers will see that there isn't a profit in it", but let's face it, there are some real a-holes out there. If you're doing trading for anything even $10 and up, you owe it to yourself to get your hands on some of these fakes, so you know what to be on the lookout for. Literally, these guys are printing off cards of that low of value. The last batch I bought had Inkmoth Nexus, Blinkmoth Nexus, and Shocklands. Those kinds of cards will not receive the scrutiny that a Mishra's Workshop would. (Also, the Mishra's Workshop looked like ass)

A variety of fakes from different sellers will run you under $100, and I think that isn't too bad of an investment to protect yourself. That is one Force of Will.

quote:

---

Originally posted by DJSmurfy:
Not sure what happened, but a LOT of sellers just dropped off the map from where I had been sourcing. I wanted to try one more of them too, since he had a radically different set of cards than anyone else.

I don't want to give any seller names or sites unless given the go ahead by Gunslinga, as I am regarding him as the site administrator, but I do want to reiterate my position on these fakes: You and I may be honest and upright M:tG players and traders, but we might not be able to say the same for this other fella' over here. It's easy to say "Don't buy these, and the sellers will see that there isn't a profit in it", but let's face it, there are some real a-holes out there. If you're doing trading for anything even $10 and up, you owe it to yourself to get your hands on some of these fakes, so you know what to be on the lookout for. Literally, these guys are printing off cards of that low of value. The last batch I bought had Inkmoth Nexus, Blinkmoth Nexus, and Shocklands. Those kinds of cards will not receive the scrutiny that a Mishra's Workshop would. (Also, the Mishra's Workshop looked like ass)

A variety of fakes from different sellers will run you under $100, and I think that isn't too bad of an investment to protect yourself. That is one Force of Will.

I will also state, that any card that you would receive from me, either through MOTL, or under the name "Firevine" which is about a 90% chance of being me anywhere else on the interwubs, is going to be 100% to the utmost extent of my knowledge and scrutiny of the card, a legitimate, genuine WotC card. If the trade is not being made through MOTL or Pucatrade, it IS NOT ME.

---

i agree. too bad the mods at r/magictcg on reddit are just trying to put their head in the sand and pretend it is not an issue. it blows my mind how good some of the fakes are. on the front i literally couldn't tell a difference w/o my jewelers loupe (100 % BUY ONE OF THESE ALL OF YOU). On the back there was a slight difference but you really had to be looking. however once you take them out of a perfect fit you can tell a difference. taht being said someone on reddit said they rubbed some down on a service to get rid of that glossiness and it worked. ffffffffffff.

1) People who know they are fake and buy them to resell and/or use.
2) People who think they are getting a killer deal on real cards.
3) People who know they are fake and buy them to help spot the same cards from people in group (1) and (2).

__________________
"Message to women worldwide: Girls....we're stupid. We don't like games. We don't know games. We can't read minds. Say it like you mean or STFU." -rockondon

1) Power Cubes with the best proxies ever
2) EDH
3) Sanctioned pay
4) Proxy tournaments
5) Practice Altering
6) Trade fodder

I picked up 5 packs of simplified Chinese Portal on eBay recently. While I was happy enough to pull the Starlit Angel, all 5 packs had the same lands - a plains and a forest. It seemed pretty coincidental that I'd pull lands like that out of 5 random boosters, though they were all different versions of plains/forest lands so maybe I'm just being paranoid about it?

The boosters themselves looked legit as far as I could tell. They didn't look like they had been tampered with or re-sealed in any way. The cards inside all had crisp, new looking edges and surfaces. The booster contents were mixed with none of the higher end rares being pulled. The commons and uncommon (with the exception of the Angel) were all mixed and seemed pretty random.

I also noticed that the same eBay seller put up another batch of 5 packs almost as soon as he shipped the ones I bought...

All in all, it could be legit I suppose it just seemed kind of fishy to me.

what i HAVE heard for sure is that sometimes people open up boxes, take out the packs and replace them with cheaper packs and reseal them. don't wanna think you have a sealed box of arabian nights and find it's all filled with fallen empires

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep333:
Does anyone have any experience with sealed packs being faked?

I picked up 5 packs of simplified Chinese Portal on eBay recently. While I was happy enough to pull the Starlit Angel, all 5 packs had the same lands - a plains and a forest. It seemed pretty coincidental that I'd pull lands like that out of 5 random boosters, though they were all different versions of plains/forest lands so maybe I'm just being paranoid about it?

The boosters themselves looked legit as far as I could tell. They didn't look like they had been tampered with or re-sealed in any way. The cards inside all had crisp, new looking edges and surfaces. The booster contents were mixed with none of the higher end rares being pulled. The commons and uncommon (with the exception of the Angel) were all mixed and seemed pretty random.

I also noticed that the same eBay seller put up another batch of 5 packs almost as soon as he shipped the ones I bought...

All in all, it could be legit I suppose it just seemed kind of fishy to me.

I can spot obvious fakes, but I've not had a lot of experience with counterfeit cards so I'm not even 100% sure I'd be able to tell if they were super good faked cards. I'm just not sure what to make of the experience with these packs.

---

Portal sets had bad collation. A box of P3K will virtually always have a full set of P3K in it. Same with Starter.

They're blurry, ridiculously glossy, and miscolored.

quote:

---

Originally posted by DJSmurfy:
I threw together an Imgur album of the worst fakes I received.

They're blurry, ridiculously glossy, and miscolored.

The seller is one of the ones that has vanished lately, though I think it's fair to say any of the ones that say that they're "white core" are going to be this miserable.

---

i'm not as concerned with the worst fakes. i'm concerned about the best

If I got a killer deal on ebay because I didn't realize the cards are fake, they show up and appear legit to my untrained eye, so I play with them.

Because no one at the tournament can tell that my cards are fake without looking at them through a jeweler's [edit: jouler's?] lens and bending my cards, I play and win the big tournament! (now you know the story is far fetched...)

At the end of the day, my opponents and I are both still oblivious to the lack of authenticity of my cards, and it remains that way for the next 746 tournaments.

One day suppose I go to trade them and am told they are fake... I played with them for 5 years, got value from them, won dual lands with them, etc.... what do I care that my Cryptic Commands or Inkmoth Nexuses (Nexi?) are fake? For that matter, I have played the cards for quite a while with no issue, I can knowingly continue to play with them; furthermore, I may not believe him because my 3275 opponents have never said anything, nor my friends, nor the T.O.s at the events I've played at.

Point is: if the detection is done through mutilating the card, or scanning each card with a special lens, they might as well not be fake, because you can use them like any other card. Obviously for those with bad intentions, you can even resell the cards!

They are a problem predominately for Wizards as it jeopardizes the legitimacy of their product. Also, it is a problem when a fake is detected, either for the owner of the fake who doesn't recall how they got it, or for their seller, if the buyer realizes his newly purchased cards are fake (whether the seller realized it or not). Basically, they are a problem for the perceived value of magic cards.

As far as their value in game play, dare I suggest it can be good. If everyone could buy a modern deck at half price for example, modern tournaments could be more populated.

quote:

---

Originally posted by MagicPatty:
Just a thought....

If I got a killer deal on ebay because I didn't realize the cards are fake, they show up and appear legit to my untrained eye, so I play with them.

Because no one at the tournament can tell that my cards are fake without looking at them through a jeweler's lens and bending my cards, I play and win the big tournament! (now you know the story is far fetched...)

At the end of the day, my opponents and I are both still oblivious to the lack of authenticity of my cards, and it remains that way for the next 746 tournaments.

One day suppose I go to trade them and am told they are fake... I played with them for 5 years, got value from them, won dual lands with them, etc.... what do I care that my Cryptic Commands or Inkmoth Nexuses (Nexi?) are fake? For that matter, I have played the cards for quite a while with no issue, I can knowingly continue to play with them; furthermore, I may not believe him because my 3275 opponents have never said anything, nor my friends, nor the T.O.s at the events I've played at.

Point is: if the detection is done through mutilating the card, or scanning each card with a special lens, they might as well not be fake, because you can use them like any other card. Obviously for those with bad intentions, you can even resell the cards!

They are a problem predominately for Wizards as it jeopardizes the legitimacy of their product. Also, it is a problem when a fake is detected, either for the owner of the fake who doesn't recall how they got it, or for their seller, if the buyer realizes his newly purchased cards are fake (whether the seller realized it or not). Basically, they are a problem for the perceived value of magic cards.

As far as their value in game play, dare I suggest it can be good. If everyone could buy a modern deck at half price for example, modern tournaments could be more populated.

---

While I totally get what you're saying I certainly have a lot of problems with this perspective.

I'm someone who hates feeling like I overpaid for anything. It's why I often buy mp versions of cards b/c they are cheaper and I know I can resell them for what I paid for them usually easier than NM cards that have a more variable price (which is funny since I'm willing to play with Unlimited duals which are more expensive than revised - I just usually play with mp versions haha). This means that resell value is very important to me (another reason I don't play standard, though not as big a reason as the time commitment). I would lose my mind finding out that I can't go and resell a card I paid for b/c it's fake. That's a thousand times worse than them banning a card which is already bad enough.

Also, it creates a perception of missed opportunities. Nobody wants to know they spent $600 on 4 goyfs to play a deck and the guy next to him spent $12 to buy 4 'goyfs'. That's $588 the other person could have spent on other stuff. That creates animosity.

But if fakes keep getting so good that the only way to tell if a card is real is to use a jouler's loupe that is a huge concern for wotc b/c if that's literally the only way (and hell, many of the fakes the only reason you can tell is b/c they aren't doing solid black text/borders). if they fix that and remove the glossiness some cards will basically be so real they might as well be real. No judge is going to light test every card in a deck, nobody has time for that and even that may get improved by the fakers.

Short of shutting down counterfeit shops as soon as they pop up WOTC needs to get enough product out there that keeps prices down so that counterfeiting isn't profitable. This means $20 or less goyfs, not triple digit values on modern legal cards. they could do more anti counterfeit measures like the holos but that doesn't do anything about the existing cards and if they ever tried to ban older versions of cards i'm pretty sure we'd all just burn wotc headquarters to the ground.

i figure eventually counterfeits will gets good they will be rampant in sanctioned events.

sigh. i hadn't really thought all this that through until now. really their only answer is to get rid of the reserve list and print cards with greater anti-counterfeit tec until you can trust your cards are real and drop the value of all existing cards so that counterfeiting isn't profitable. this means dropping card values down to pre 2006 levels. $10 duals, fetches, goyfs, $25 tabernacles, etc.

And this on top of the news I heard today that WOTC is looking to raise MSRP to $4.99 a pack. looks like they are heading the opposite direction they need to.

Someone please remind me why I have $40,000 tied up in cardboard for formats they don't even support?

quote:

---

Originally posted by MagicPatty:
Just a thought....

If I got a killer deal on ebay because I didn't realize the cards are fake, they show up and appear legit to my untrained eye, so I play with them.

Because no one at the tournament can tell that my cards are fake without looking at them through a jeweler's lens and bending my cards, I play and win the big tournament! (now you know the story is far fetched...)

At the end of the day, my opponents and I are both still oblivious to the lack of authenticity of my cards, and it remains that way for the next 746 tournaments.

One day suppose I go to trade them and am told they are fake... I played with them for 5 years, got value from them, won dual lands with them, etc.... what do I care that my Cryptic Commands or Inkmoth Nexuses (Nexi?) are fake? For that matter, I have played the cards for quite a while with no issue, I can knowingly continue to play with them; furthermore, I may not believe him because my 3275 opponents have never said anything, nor my friends, nor the T.O.s at the events I've played at.

Point is: if the detection is done through mutilating the card, or scanning each card with a special lens, they might as well not be fake, because you can use them like any other card. Obviously for those with bad intentions, you can even resell the cards!

They are a problem predominately for Wizards as it jeopardizes the legitimacy of their product. Also, it is a problem when a fake is detected, either for the owner of the fake who doesn't recall how they got it, or for their seller, if the buyer realizes his newly purchased cards are fake (whether the seller realized it or not). Basically, they are a problem for the perceived value of magic cards.

As far as their value in game play, dare I suggest it can be good. If everyone could buy a modern deck at half price for example, modern tournaments could be more populated.

---

While I totally get what you're saying I certainly have a lot of problems with this perspective.

I'm someone who hates feeling like I overpaid for anything. It's why I often buy mp versions of cards b/c they are cheaper and I know I can resell them for what I paid for them usually easier than NM cards that have a more variable price (which is funny since I'm willing to play with Unlimited duals which are more expensive than revised - I just usually play with mp versions haha). This means that resell value is very important to me (another reason I don't play standard, though not as big a reason as the time commitment). I would lose my mind finding out that I can't go and resell a card I paid for b/c it's fake. That's a thousand times worse than them banning a card which is already bad enough.

Also, it creates a perception of missed opportunities. Nobody wants to know they spent $600 on 4 goyfs to play a deck and the guy next to him spent $12 to buy 4 'goyfs'. That's $588 the other person could have spent on other stuff. That creates animosity.

But if fakes keep getting so good that the only way to tell if a card is real is to use a jouler's loupe that is a huge concern for wotc b/c if that's literally the only way (and hell, many of the fakes the only reason you can tell is b/c they aren't doing solid black text/borders). if they fix that and remove the glossiness some cards will basically be so real they might as well be real. No judge is going to light test every card in a deck, nobody has time for that and even that may get improved by the fakers.

Short of shutting down counterfeit shops as soon as they pop up WOTC needs to get enough product out there that keeps prices down so that counterfeiting isn't profitable. This means $20 or less goyfs, not triple digit values on modern legal cards. they could do more anti counterfeit measures like the holos but that doesn't do anything about the existing cards and if they ever tried to ban older versions of cards i'm pretty sure we'd all just burn wotc headquarters to the ground.

i figure eventually counterfeits will gets good they will be rampant in sanctioned events.

sigh. i hadn't really thought all this that through until now. really their only answer is to get rid of the reserve list and print cards with greater anti-counterfeit tec until you can trust your cards are real and drop the value of all existing cards so that counterfeiting isn't profitable. this means dropping card values down to pre 2006 levels. $10 duals, fetches, goyfs, $25 tabernacles, etc.

And this on top of the news I heard today that WOTC is looking to raise MSRP to $4.99 a pack. looks like they are heading the opposite direction they need to.

Someone please remind me why I have $40,000 tied up in cardboard for formats they don't even support?

quote:

---

Originally posted by LandDestroyer:
Someone please remind me why I have $40,000 tied up in cardboard for formats they don't even support?

---

Because that's where most people say the real value is.

__________________
"Message to women worldwide: Girls....we're stupid. We don't like games. We don't know games. We can't read minds. Say it like you mean or STFU." -rockondon

quote:

---

Originally posted by LandDestroyer:

And this on top of the news I heard today that WOTC is looking to raise MSRP to $4.99 a pack. looks like they are heading the opposite direction they need to.

---

Do you have a source for this?

quote:

---

Originally posted by stab107:
Do you have a source for this?

---

Not something I can link to, just the owner of an LGS I know. So it's literally hearsay at this point tbh

Like this Black Lotus was on Ebay this week from seller joeunshekki with a buy it now of $1,500. obviously caught my attention.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Magic-The-Gathering-Black-Lotus-/171776290168?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27feaa2d78

was auction 171776290168

anyway it was seller http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=joeunshekki&ftab=AllFeedback&sspagename=ADME:X:CEM:US:1183

seller tried to show it passing some tests, the same as the ones the fakes pass

said
"Magic the gathering black lotus
Seems to be in good condition.
I cannot tell this cards authenticity.
I have looked online and found a couple ways to test the cards authenticity but cannot guarantee anything. And that is why its at a low auction.
Pictures of the bend, water, and print tests can be posted if be needed.
Update: pictures of the bend, water, and print tests have been uploaded.
Update: will have scan pictures up in a couple of days.

Questions are welcomed of course.

No refunds at all. Buyer acknowledges when bidding and purchasing on this item, that buyer is receiving item without any form of authenticity. Any questions regarding authenticity must be asked before purchase. Again there is no refund for the card whether it is authentic or not.

Thanks for looking.
Shipping will be securely packaged with confirmation signature delivery."

well my messages to the seller were (in reverse order as copies from ebay) the below. pretty sketchy. i'm writing this post b/c others on motl are telling me they've bought some ebay auctions recently where seller did stuff like this and said no refunds and turned out the cards were fake and now they are fighting ebay. i didn't buy this lotus but someone appears to have. GL to whoever bought it.

Dear christopherleegregory,

Again thank you for the info.

I have updated the auction to specifically warn buyers that it does not come with authenticity.
Any tests to prove authenticity will be provided, given that i can do those tests.
(i.e. the scanned picture of the card will be up in a couple of days)

The fact is i am selling a card and writing out the description as best as i can.
Also informed buyers that i cant tell the authenticity.
(clearly if i knew it was 100% real or fake, this auction would be a lot more expensive or it could be labeled as "proxies or counterfeits"

But again i am just selling just a card, described it best i can and took pictures of it.
Thanks for the info.

- joeunshekki
Click the Respond button to reply through Messages, or go to your email to reply

Respond

From: christopherleegregory
To: joeunshekki
Subject: Re: Other: christopherleegregory sent a message about Magic The Gathering Black Lotus #171776290168
Sent Date: May-03-15 08:25:04 PDT

Dear joeunshekki,

the fact is you're selling an unlimited edition black lotus. if it turns out not to be an unlimited edition black lotus ebay will rule in buyer's favor b/c selling proxies or counterfeits is illegal.

- christopherleegregory

From: joeunshekki
To: christopherleegregory
Subject: Re: Other: christopherleegregory sent a message about Magic The Gathering Black Lotus #171776290168
Sent Date: May-03-15 08:05:46 PDT

Dear christopherleegregory,

I will have scans up within a couple of days.
Didnt have a scanner and only a camera.

I will update the auction to reflect exactly what the buyer is bidding for so there is no mistake or unknowing purchase.

Thanks for that info.

- joeunshekki

From: christopherleegregory
To: joeunshekki
Subject: Other: christopherleegregory sent a message about Magic The Gathering Black Lotus #171776290168
Sent Date: May-03-15 07:49:29 PDT

Dear joeunshekki,

if you provide high resolution scans it'll be easier for potential buyers to verify and then buy. need high res scans we can zoom in on and see the printing pattern.

also, you say no refunds but if it turns out fake the buyer will file a claim against the auction and ebay would deduct the money and return to buyer.