quote:

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Originally posted by jamestosetti:
Is it getting to the point where every money card is suspect?

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Ya. They are faking everything from revised demonic tutor, Elspeth suns champion, theros thougbtsieze , shock lands etc

When I looked up etsy thing all I saw was a blank page today. I missed? Maybe BC I don't have an etsy account I cant see

I mean if this doesn't cause some issue with the prices of cards then I don't know what would. I would assume that it would be pretty easy to take newer players, or unexperienced collectors for large sums with these fakes. I think the tipping point with prices would come in the form of tournament issues from the cards being deemed fake. I just can't see this happening in bigger formats, but that is definitely going to happen in Vintage tournaments.

quote:

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Originally posted by jamestosetti:
I just looked up etsy. I had never heard of this. I did see a large list of these fakes for sale. I mean this is like a wrench in any collector or players plans. The fake issue causes so much uncertainty that I would be skeptical of buying anything that didn't come from the largest dealers. But this also raises the issue of selling your cards to anyone else who thinks the same way that you do.

I mean if this doesn't cause some issue with the prices of cards then I don't know what would. I would assume that it would be pretty easy to take newer players, or unexperienced collectors for large sums with these fakes. I think the tipping point with prices would come in the form of tournament issues from the cards being deemed fake. I just can't see this happening in bigger formats, but that is definitely going to happen in Vintage tournaments.

I would assume WOTC has a plan other than Magic Online. Someone mentioned turning in actual cards for cards with the small holograms. I can see nothing being done until the secondary market on older cards is already destroyed beyond the hope of repair. In this case, why not just make a paper Vintage Masters now (original pics lol)?

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the thing is WOTC doesn't care about older formats so they won't make a move on this. wotc cares so little that if you suspect a card is fake they ask you to pay to ship it in. then they keep it. they wont even return it if deemed real. they haven't updated their information on telling counterfeits apart in years. they only care about the illusion that they are printing fakes.

quote:

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Originally posted by spike777:
I'm confused. Are the cards on etsy the Chinese ones or the Canadian ones? The only ones I can find say made in China. Where is this batch from Canada that is supposed to be much better? Is it really much better? What do they feel/look like? Can someone PM me a link? Do they host high resolution photos?

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I didn't see the Canadian ones on etsy but not sure if i need to create an account to see but i wouldn't think so.
scans of the Canadian ones are here
http://learningkitty.com/2015/02/04/canadian-high-resolution-counterfeit-magic-mtg/

I'm hoping to get more information later

quote:

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Originally posted by LandDestroyer:
I didn't see the Canadian ones on etsy but not sure if i need to create an account to see but i wouldn't think so.
scans of the Canadian ones are here
http://learningkitty.com/2015/02/04/canadian-high-resolution-counterfeit-magic-mtg/

I'm hoping to get more information later

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quote:

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Originally posted by stab107:
It is my understanding that if these are made from high quality scans then the ink patterns will not be correct. We can't be sure without seeing 600+ DPI scans.

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I don't know man. If you ignore the border the dot pattern doesn't look too bad on even the chinese fakes

We need more info ASAP on this latest batch of Canadian fakes. I have ordered some (as well as Chinese fakes which are apparently less convincing) but not yet received a shipping confirmation, hopefully this will pan out so I can share some detailed test results and 1200 dpi scans, which no one else has done yet.

I want to see more info and handle these cards in person before jumping to any conclusions. But the recent reddit/imgur posts are very scary. The photos aren't great, but they appear to show incredible print quality. Go look if you haven't already... it's astonishing. They have reverse engineered all the typesetting and everything.

How many more iterations will it take to perfect the few remaining issues like the cardstock gloss, etc? 1, 2, 3?

It is comforting to believe that the perfect fake is impossible, but to do so is just to bury your head in the sand. It's very possible. We are on the verge of it, if it hasn't happened already. (Interesting thing -- it's possible there are already indistinguishable fakes in circulation. Personally, if I were a counterfeiter and I had a truly indistinguishable product, I wouldn't dick around with selling them for cents on the dollar - I'd just trickle them into the market through resellers, ebay etc. as legit cards.)

I'll also note that there have been a lot of suspicious high-end cards from Canadian sellers appearing on eBay in the last few days. Lots of white bordered power etc that looks a little too new.

-They're not all created equal. Some are much blurrier and w/ dull colors. Others are much sharper and look basically right. I think what's happening is that they are slowly redoing the card templates and reverse engineering the fonts etc. This is corroborated by the fact that some cards have typos, which obviously can't happen with a straight scan.

-When new, they feel waxy like playing cards. However if you rub them on a table for a minute or two, they lose the waxiness and feel pretty much like real cards.

-The better ones might fool you if mixed in w/ other cards and you're not on alert. However any serious MOTL user who's handled old cards would be able to pick them out by eye if looking carefully.

-The better cards could pretty easily be used sleeved in a tournament. A sharp opponent who's attuned to the idea of fakes MIGHT notice while searching a deck but I wouldn't necessarily count on that. My guess is quite a few folks have played these and gotten away with it at SCGs etc already.

-If you magnify, there are obvious flaws, most notably, areas that should be completely black have colored rosette print mixed in. This is a dead giveaway.

-They're good enough that when I hold them, I kinda feel like I'm looking at the real thing. I don't really like this. I feel like it's polluting my love and memories of the real thing.

I am still trying to find some of the Canadian fakes, which are said to be even better.

on the other hand ... people buying some fakes ... might either sell them back as real ... either sell their card one day to someone with less knowledge and then this person will think his cards are legit and sells them back aswell one day...

any person buying some fakes is actually contributing to bigger amounts of fake cards in the future ....

quote:

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Originally posted by mnDiff:
everybody can buy fakes... its actually easy ... you have people staying firm and dont deal with those ... so anybody could do so and avoid on buying fakes

on the other hand ... people buying some fakes ... might either sell them back as real ... either sell their card one day to someone with less knowledge and then this person will think his cards are legit and sells them back aswell one day...

any person buying some fakes is actually contributing to bigger amounts of fake cards in the future ....

you guys at MOTL should BAN any person which claims they bought/put their hands on FAKE cards ... without any discussion

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I local card shop got a card in recently. I went and confirmed it was a chinese fake for them. i put my hands on it to do that. if you were a mod would you now ban me? (side note: that shop then tore up the fake snapcaster and threw it away)

Anyway, this week I heard of a new list of chinese fakes. some cards are better quality than last I heard (goblin guide's set symbol fixed to show rare instead of mythic) but i think the lotus (at least unlimited) still says arifact instead of artifact. also the new sinkhole is unlimited not beta.

new lists to watch out for are:

List A:

Modern Set
Scalding Tarn
Misty Rainforest
Verdant Catacombs
Marsh Flats
Arid Mesa
Flooded Strand
Polluted Delta
Wooded Foothills
Bloodstained Mire
Windswept Heath
Tarmogoyf
Dark confident MM
Cryptic Command LORWYN
Linvala, Keeper of Silence
Karn Liberated
Twilight Mire
Horizon Canopy
Flooded Grove
Cavern of Souls
Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Sword of Light and Shadow
Sword of Feast and Famine
Sword of War and Peace
Threads of Disloyalty
Scapeshift
Thoughtseize LORWYN
Ensnaring Bridge
Arcbound Ravager
Spellskite
Sunken Ruins
Voice of Resurgence
Blood Moon
Splinter Twin
Cascade Bluffs
Primeval Titan
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
bitterblossom
Remand
Liliana of the veil
Abrupt Decay
Chalice of the Void
Daybreak coronet
Snapcaster Mage
Phyrexian Obliterator
Geist of Saint Traft
Kikj-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Steam Vents
Sacred Foundry
Temple Garden
Overgrown Tomb
Breeding Pool
Blood crypt
Godless Shrine
Hallowed Fountain
Watery Grave
Stomping Ground

List B:

Tundra Revised
Underground Sea Revised
Badlands Revised
Taiga Revised
Savannah Revised
Scrubland Revised
Volcanic Island Revised
Bayou Revised
Plateau Revised
Tropical Island Revised
Batterskull
Tarmogoyf
Dark Confidant 2004
Rishadan Port
Imperial recuritor
Ancient Tomb
Gaea's Cradle
Force of will
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Jace Beleren
Lion's Eye Diamond
Vendilion Clique
Wasteland
City of Traitors
Show and Tell
Liliana of the Veil
Sneak Attack
Stifle
Mox Opal
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Mox Diamond
Sword of Fire and Ice
Damnation
Flusterstorm
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Emrakul, the Arons Torn
Fluminator Mage
Crucible of Worlds
Umezawa's Jettle
Grove of the Burnwillows
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Sinkhole
Chrome Mox
Sensei's Diving Top
Glimpse of Nature
Iona,Shield of Emeria
Leyline of Sanctity
Stoneforge Mystic
Entomb
Goblin Guide
Aether Vial
Natural Order
Nobel Hierarch
Karakas
Grisebrand
Snapcaster Mage

List C:

quote:

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Originally posted by mnDiff:

on the other hand ... people buying some fakes ... might either sell them back as real ... either sell their card one day to someone with less knowledge and then this person will think his cards are legit and sells them back aswell one day...

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Which is precisely why we're having this discussion. To help people know how to spot a fake. All my fakes are sitting here on my desk being used as coasters.

These Chinese fakes sell fast, and with the exorbitant prices of cards these days, it seems inevitable. You can get away without a playset of Tarmogoyf, but a ton of the staples in modern and legacy will run you 20-100 dollars each.

quote:

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Originally posted by Death_Dealer:
There is a market for counterfeit magic cards.

These Chinese fakes sell fast, and with the exorbitant prices of cards these days, it seems inevitable. You can get away without a playset of Tarmogoyf, but a ton of the staples in modern and legacy will run you 20-100 dollars each.

I can't blame people for wanting to sleeve these cards up and play.

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Though we all understand that perspective anyone buying the counterfeit cards hurts themselves in several ways.
1) counterfeiters selling more counterfeit cards gives them capital they can use to improve the process and get more counterfeits out there

2) fear of counterfeits scares off people from buying valuable cards and could hurt your ability to resell cards

...i could go on but i'm sure there have been articles written about this and others are more willing to keep on typing.

quote:

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Originally posted by Death_Dealer:
Here is a Chinese fake compared to a real card (right is real).

http://s17.postimg.org/ao55qq90e/Full_Size_Render_13.jpg

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quote:

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Originally posted by Death_Dealer:
Here is a Chinese fake compared to a real card (right is real).

http://s17.postimg.org/ao55qq90e/Full_Size_Render_13.jpg

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quote:

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Originally posted by LandDestroyer:
Though we all understand that perspective anyone buying the counterfeit cards hurts themselves in several ways.
1) counterfeiters selling more counterfeit cards gives them capital they can use to improve the process and get more counterfeits out there

2) fear of counterfeits scares off people from buying valuable cards and could hurt your ability to resell cards

...i could go on but i'm sure there have been articles written about this and others are more willing to keep on typing.

that being said, we all need information out there on how to tell the fakes apart and which cards to be most worried about and that is the point of this thread.

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Hurt themselves? That’s a bit of a stretch.

The points listed make for some nice commentary, but are largely irrelevant to most people. These Chinese counterfeiters are saturating a market ballooning out of control, and WOTC has done little to nothing to alleviate the problem, the average player is expected to be up in arms?

You live in a country where irresponsible capital is allowed to roam freely and legislature is wholesale, and you really think gamestore inhabitants are going to protect the game? Let alone feel wounded? Please. But it gets better as these “proxies” are selling like hotcakes; believe me, on a personal account, it was very hard to find a legacy and vintage set for a little while. Who do you think are buying these? This suggests to me that A LOT of players are perfectly content to buy and play with these. These counterfeits are going to continue to sell, and the processes are going to improve. The Chinese counterfeiters, along with the prophets of doom, can continue trucking along. I won’t be losing any sleep, and I suspect most players won’t either.

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Originally posted by intelli78:

Looks quite good, what are the tells IRL?

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The equip cost's font is not correct.