quote:

---

Originally posted by fwybwed:
@PD

lol jeez, dont get mad cuz no one is throwing any praise your way friend.

Im not saying you never sent the PM, to me its 20/20 hindsight, you watch as the game progresses with out any impact on you to see who has what role, why? because there is no suspicion on you or you try to read othersduring the game. All you do is watch and not worry about gettin lynched or shredded.

Integrity, now your been silly.

As for your suspicion on GLE you based that off of Thanos words that he trusted PGB and suspected GLE. But u know he could only have screened one of these. Tho this was not the basis of your full suspicion i thought it was weak.

Don't get upset dude.

---

:headdesk:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Liq:

@ Bugger :

I do not need to convince you that you are a wolf when you know you are not. It does not matter if you do a good job at defending yourself which I don't think you did. What mattered was that I got others to thinking about how they saw your play. As long as the post was able to create a bit of suspicion between you and the others, it was a success.

---

lol, no. I appreciate that you can look at it in that way, but no. Your attack was miserable both in content and effect. I'll concede that content itself (at least for your purposes) is irrelevant as the entire exchange was not all over-the-table, but your claim that it worked as a strategy is as much a sham as the argument itself was.
1.

quote:

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[B What mattered was that I got others to thinking about how they saw your play. [/B]

---

2.

quote:

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[BAs long as the post was able to create a bit of suspicion between you and the others, it was a success.[/B]

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It didn't, and it wasn't.

3. In fact, it may have done you some harm. Until that point you had pretty much zero suspicion on yourself, but after that post people began to suspect you because your attack was so godawful.

So really all you did was something irrelevant, badly. Well, now I know what to look for next time you're a wolf.

Thanos came out to prevent his own lynch without full reveal.

PD's PM to me all but cleared both of us.

Thanos revealing PGB to be a cit even tho he did not do a full reveal.

AGM came out to prevent his own lynch without full reveal (which is forbidden).

quote:

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Originally posted by XplicitR:

Thats 5 known quantities added to the game with only 1 seer look. I hope that even impartial revealing becomes forbidden for the next game.

---

Uh, that's not what Thanos did. Seers drop hints like that all the time so when they're dead, gone, and revealed, people can pick through their posts and see who they trusted and when, or who they didn't trust.
What thanos did would only have been a problem had someone figured it out before his death, or if he had done anything but passively trust PGB.
He didn't shove it in everyone's faces, and he didn't try to get everyone's attention with it. He behaved exactly as a cit who changed their plans would. That's not against the rules; it's done every single game (the seer survives that is).

quote:

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Originally posted by XplicitR:
I hope that even impartial revealing becomes forbidden for the next game.

---

That's really up to MM, but if I had still been running these, I'd have handed out 2 multi-game suspensions for breaking clearly outlined rules. IMO, thinly-veiled acknowledgments regarding a role are no different than flat-out stating it.

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Dude, Im not calling you a liar, at all and Im serious when I say i totally respect you as a player. I am just saying that all this talk is nuthin but johnny come lately.

I am in no way calling you a liar. sry if you feel that way.

you asked for a little credit from someone on information alot of us probably already knew. While we were all already dead, lol. as for GLE issue, it was part of your argument, tho a small part it was still part of it in the beginning of your suspicion.

But what ever.

Edit @Nder

I never thought of the revealing that way, and I agree with you. It force a change in the game and considered revealing your role.

Either way, one or the other has to occur. I'm down for either. Personally, I play a lot on those forums now, but started on MOTL. Granted, it's a completely different game the way they play it, and I like variety, so I would like to continue playing how we used to (Option 2), just with people abiding by the rules.

Liq, why me first?

quote:

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Originally posted by MasterWolf:
Bugger: dropping hints as the seer is fine. That's GOOD play. It's the whole "I STRONGLY suggest you leave me around for a few rounds..."

---

Regarding partial reveals, I'd like to point out that the business of the angel not revealing himself and players not being able to lie about being the angel or the seer are strictly MOTL house rules. In standard werewolf a player can say ANYTHING HE WANTS. He can claim to be the seer when he isn't, he can claim to be the angel when he isn't. This makes for a much more challenging game where you can't necessarily trust someone (or eat them) just because they claimed to be the seer or angel.

Given that we don't allow such play here, "hinting" has become a necessary and useful strategy which adds a lot of color to the game. Cits sometimes drop the seer or angel hints to bait the wolves into killing them (thus keeping the angel or seer alive), wolves drop them to try and get out of being lynched or to try and get the angel or seer to give themselves away, and of course the angel and seer drop them to save the cits from wasting lynches. In each case the hints come with perilous risks--a hinting cit might draw out his own angel for the wolves, a hinting wolf might attract the attn of the seer, and of course any player that dropped such a hint as a wolf would be remembered into perpetuity as particularly untrustworthy.

Therefore I think "hinting" should be embraced as a legitimate strategy--it adds color, it has strategic benefits, and it has strategic risks. I think the added risk of banning is unnecessary--the rule says you can't reveal yourself as the angel, and you can't lie about it--it doesn't say anything about hinting and for good reason. You can give yourself away without meaning to. If I accidentally let slip something which makes clear I must be the angel, without saying "I am the angel", will I be banned? If yes, then all hints are off the table and the game gets more dull, if no, then how can you objectively draw the line? I can always claim something was an "accident".

In WW6, hypothetical questions regarding the angel were key in zooming in on the wolf. Nobody admitted to being the angel, but holder of the role could be derived from the hypotheticals:

Player A is eaten by wolves. On next round, Player B asks player C "who would you have saved last round if you were the angel?" Player C says "player A." We now know that Player C is not the angel, unless he is lying.

So do we ban player C for saying who he would have saved as the angel? That seems a real stretch. Do we ban player B for asking a perfectly legitimate question about who player C thinks should have been saved?

I think we've gotten ourselves into these quandaries because of our house rules. I'm not suggesting that those rules be amended, but I am suggesting that subtle hints should continue to be permitted--especially since hints are going to happen by accident--it's part and parcel of how wolves find angels and seers.

Regarding AGM's angelhint--it was borderline, and since the cits lost anyway, I'd probably warn him if I were the GM but not mete out any punishment. The only player in this particular game who deserves to be banned IMO is myself, for sending a private message to another player.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ryan2754:
Liq, why me first?

---

Ask BoT. He was the leader then.

I sent him 3 names for the possible first kill and he choose you.

__________________
Your Captain N of 2008

__________________
There's no need to fear, UNDERDOG is here!

All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

Report rules violations.

quote:

---

Originally posted by MasterWolf:
Bugger: dropping hints as the seer is fine. That's GOOD play. It's the whole "I STRONGLY suggest you leave me around for a few rounds..."

---

I disagree.
If Thanos had said this completely out of the blue, first post of the game, before any suspicions had been made- in any of those scenarios? Yeah, it's a huge problem and I agree with you. But that's not what he did- he did it to try to get people off of lynching him. ToL tried to do the same thing last round. And at this point, Thanos had around 6-7 votes on him. It's not like he did it as soon as PGB announced a vote for him.
I think what thanos did was kosher.

__________________
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quote:

---

Originally posted by nderdog:
The Seer needs to be able to reveal himself to give up his information anyway. If he chooses to hint and suggest before doing so, he's just increasing the chances that he'll get eaten before having a chance to actually come out and give out confirmed information.

---

Those bad consequences aren't necessarily true, though. If the hint is strong enough, the angel will pick up on it and (hopefully) protect him for the remainder of the game. Like I said in my last post, this creates a situation where the seer is invincible until the angel is found. This gives the citizens a huge advantage. Granted, you can argue that angel could miss the hint, like I did this game, but then things get sticky. Where do you draw the line? If the angel picks up on the hint, do we say the seer revealed? Or do we say the angel had acute observation? By allowing hints but banning lying, you create a situation where there is no objective right and wrong. When playing a game that has a winner and a loser, that is almost always a bad idea.

My personal take on how the issue could be solved?

1) The angel and the seer know each others identities at the beginning of the game.
2) The angel cannot save the seer.

Obviously, this comes with the downside that the seer can never be protected. However, it also solves for the problematic issue of "hinting," as well as gives the seer an automatic name at Round 0. Thoughts?

quote:

---

Originally posted by nderdog:
The Angel doesn't have a need to reveal their role, and if the rules say you can't, then hinting and suggesting shouldn't be allowed either. I'd imagine there was a good reason for not allowing the Angel to reveal, so I'll take that as it is.

---

This leads to the exact same situation PD posted. If hypotheticals are allowed (which they are by the current rules), it's possible to deduce who the angel is anyway. At that point, why not just let the angel reveal? The citizens have lost the past four (maybe more?) games. The angel having this power would not greatly inhibit the wolves' ability to win.

quote:

---

Originally posted by AlmasterGM:
[B}My personal take on how the issue could be solved?

1) The angel and the seer know each others identities at the beginning of the game.
2) The angel cannot save the seer.[/B]

---

No that isn't solving the issue. It clearly states that the Angel is not to reveal himself. Granted it helped us narrow it down which was beneficial however in my eyes and I am pretty sure in PGB eyes u weren't a suspect. However, you dropped the ball on Thanos and that definitely hurt us. He all but spelled out he was the seer. Once he comes out u can no longer save him. Thus the reason he hinted hoping you would have saved him.

I played a very bad beginning of the game. Getting frustrated with Bugger and xplicitr speaking of Thanos's role! Don't talk about it. Especially after he is dropping hints. You don't want to bring attention to him if not necessary. I know by Thanos's posting that he spelled it out and the wolves eventually picked up on it but we caught a break when they took out Jaz first.

I know I played a bad game but, Bernie I am dissapointed in ur play this game. U normally are quiet and bring up good points. But why persist on PGB after basically being cleared and call out Almaster after he basically said hey I am the Angel. The Almaster post in the end all but made me feel you were the last wolf. If that not gotten posted I would of tried to push for Masterwolf.

__________________
How many times do I have to have sex with your mom before you realize we have something special.

quote:

---

Originally posted by AlmasterGM:
Those bad consequences aren't necessarily true, though. If the hint is strong enough, the angel will pick up on it and (hopefully) protect him for the remainder of the game. Like I said in my last post, this creates a situation where the seer is invincible until the angel is found. This gives the citizens a huge advantage. Granted, you can argue that angel could miss the hint, like I did this game, but then things get sticky. Where do you draw the line? If the angel picks up on the hint, do we say the seer revealed? Or do we say the angel had acute observation? By allowing hints but banning lying, you create a situation where there is no objective right and wrong. When playing a game that has a winner and a loser, that is almost always a bad idea.

My personal take on how the issue could be solved?

1) The angel and the seer know each others identities at the beginning of the game.
2) The angel cannot save the seer.

---

Honestly? I really like this idea. Consider the motion seconded. When do we get to vote?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bernek77:
No that isn't solving the issue. It clearly states that the Angel is not to reveal himself. Granted it helped us narrow it down which was beneficial however in my eyes and I am pretty sure in PGB eyes u weren't a suspect. However, you dropped the ball on Thanos and that definitely hurt us. He all but spelled out he was the seer. Once he comes out u can no longer save him. Thus the reason he hinted hoping you would have saved him.

---

Ai yi yi, Bernek, where to begin.
1.

quote:

---

No that isn't solving the issue. It clearly
states that the Angel is not to reveal himself

---

That's not the problem he's talking about. He's talking about the situation where the seer can pseudo-reveal and then the angel can cover him for the rest of the game. Did you read the rest of his post at all?

2.

quote:

---

He all but spelled out he was the seer. Once he comes out u can no longer save him. Thus the reason he hinted hoping you would have saved him.

---

Dear God. Bernek, that's not why Thanos dropped the hint. He dropped it because he was going to get lynched otherwise. The angel had nothing to do with it.

quote:

---

I played a very bad beginning of the game. Getting frustrated with Bugger and xplicitr speaking of Thanos's role! Don't talk about it. Especially after he is dropping hints. You don't want to bring attention to him if not necessary.

---

Bernek, you played badly the entire game. Credit where credit is due.

quote:

---

I know by Thanos's posting that he spelled it out

---

NO YOU DIDN'T. You SAID to me "You said you thought Thanos is the seer. IMO there was nothing to give that assumption." And then what happened? You started saying that you HAD. You were wrong, Bernek. Okay? People guess wrong in werewolf all the time. Grow a spine and own up to your mistake instead of trying to stand here with a straight face and tell me a complete lie.

quote:

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I know I played a bad game but, Bernie I am dissapointed in ur play this game. U normally are quiet and bring up good points. But why persist on PGB after basically being cleared and call out Almaster after he basically said hey I am the Angel.

---

Do you pay even the slightest attention to how Bernie plays? He's sometimes as clueless as you are- the seer will hint someone is a cit, the angel will 'reveal'- Bernie will still suspect them. It's they way he plays- he's incredibly tenacious.

quote:

---

The Almaster post in the end all but made me feel you were the last wolf. If that not gotten posted I would of tried to push for Masterwolf.

---

Wait a minute- you're blaming the person you suspect for suspecting them? That's real classy.

Regarding Bernie suspecting AGM after he dropped the angel hint, how is this any different from him suspecting PGB after Thanos cleared him? Or suspecting me back in WW6 after the seer cleared me? This is consistent play for Bernie--he seems to miss the details, pick a target, and hang on to that target until the target is eliminated.

My principle objection with Bernie this time is that he essentially threw the game. It was 3 votes to 1 and he just showed up and declared who he was voting for and left it at that--of all the details to miss, the fact that he KNEW well in advance of the lynch that the cits were going to lose and did nothing to try to sway opinion really irritates me. There's no guarantee he would have succeeded, but that's no reason not to try.

Apart from that I have no complaints about Bernie's play.

I found your play pretty consistent this game as well--you met my expectations and therefore I was pretty sure you weren't a wolf. Don't beat yourself up over your play.

If you want my advice I'd say you have a penchant for according strong players undue trust. While it's true you probably don't want to eliminate a strong player R1 or R2 without very good reason, in the later rounds you can't cling to them just because they are strong. Wolves may leave strong players in the game as targets of suspicion, it's true, but it is also true that wolves remove players they consider a threat. I personally can't think of a team of three wolves who wouldn't consider Liq a threat--can you? So I'd suggest sticking to decisions based on apparent guilt or innocence in the later rounds as opposed to player skill.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2462/3577252545_96058790eb_o.gif

Interesting. WW went for standard scatter pattern and NEVER voted together at all. MW stood alone in the R1-AGM pile from R3 on but nobody seemed to notice (or think much of it).

Voting records showing the final groups as compared to the R1 groups (the original piles):

code:

---

PLAYER            R01  R02  R03  R04  R05  R06  R07  GRP  R1G
================  ===  ===  ===  ===  ===  ===  ===  ===  ===
Bernek77          BOT  XPR  BUG  PD   BB   LIQ  BB    2    2
puregoblinboy47   THA  JSP  BUG  GLE  XPR  LIQ  BB    C    4
MasterWolf        AGM  ---  GLE  GLE  XPR  LIQ  BB    W    1
BernieB           PGB  PGB  B77  B77  XPR  LIQ  B77   C    3
AlmasterGM        THA  PGB  GLE  GLE  XPR  LIQ        A    4
Liq               PD   JSP  BUG  BB   BB   ---        W    3
ThoughtsofLepers  BOT  XPR  BUG  GLE  ---             C    2
XplicitR          THA  JSP  B77  GLE  BB              C    4
PlasteredDragon   BOT  JSP  GLE  GLE                  C    2
GottaLoveElves    THA  THA  B77  PD                   C    4
fwybwed           AGM  BUG  BUG                       C    1
Bugger            JSP  JSP  B77                       C    3
Thanos            BOT  JSP                            S    2
JackSpade         BOT  BUG                            C    2
Jazaray           BOT                                 C    2
Battle_of_Twits   THA                                 W    4
ryan2754                                              C    C

---

Final post counts:

code:

---

Post Count Report
 
From: 001: 26-Apr 16:06 MeddlingMage - rules posted
  To: 520: 28-May 18:35 MeddlingMage - round 7 votes
 
Living Players:
                     R0   R1   R2   R3   R4   R5   R6   R7  TOT   P/R
Bernek77              2    5    8   12    9    5    6    2   47   6.7
MasterWolf            3    5    6    4    5    6    3    2   31   4.4
puregoblinboy47       1    7    2    4    3    2    4    1   23   3.3
 
Dead Players:
                     R0   R1   R2   R3   R4   R5   R6   R7  TOT   P/R
AlmasterGM            1    7    3    1    1    5    4        21   3.5
Battle_of_Twits       2    3                                  3   3.0
BernieB               4    2    1    2    3    5    2    2   17   2.4
Bugger               12   18   14   15                       47  15.7
fwybwed               2    2    7    5                       14   4.7
GottaLoveElves        6    4    1   15    0                  20   5.0
JackSpade             3    4    4                             8   4.0
Jazaray               3    2                                  2   2.0
Liq                   1    4    3    5    3    2    1        18   3.0
PlasteredDragon      16   24   18   37   15                  94  23.5
ryan2754              4                                       0   0.0
Thanos                2    7    4                            11   5.5
ThoughtsofLepers      1    4    2    1    4    4             15   3.0
XplicitR              4    9    9    5    3    9             35   7.0

---

{SUMMARY: piles, voting records, post counts}

Thanos is the seer. He comes out as seer (or does not and the ww's go for him anyway). The WW's attempt to kill him, but the Angel has chosen him to save, so the ww's don't get their kill, Thanos is saved that round, and CANNOT be saved again this game.

Another senerio:

I'm a cit. The ww's attempt to kill me, but the Angel has chosen me to save. I get saved, the ww's don't get their kill and I CANNOT be saved again this game.

Along the lines of Spiderman's "Everybody gets one" line from Family Guy.

Whatcha think?

Thanks,
Jazaray

__________________
A Plastered Dragon Original Limerick:
There was a nice lassie named Jaz
Many wished to have what she has,
A delicate face,
A soft warm embrace,
And a whole lot of bedroom pizzazz.

WeedIan: Jazaray is like MOTL's Mom.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bugger:
Wait a minute- you're blaming the person you suspect for suspecting them? That's real classy.

---

That is not OOC for Bernek, I had read up on a game where Bernek blamed the seer for making him suspect him, and thus have to reveal once Bernek successfully put a wagon on the seer. He then said "be thankful that you got out your names before you went"...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jazaray:
I have an idea on how to solve this angel thing. The angel saves the seer (or anyone) and, IF the ww's try to kill that person (IE, if the angel actually SAVES) that's it. They get that one save.

---

So Werewolf gets Mafia style rules now?

__________________
Your Captain N of 2008

quote:

---

Originally posted by Liq:
So Werewolf gets Mafia style rules now?

---

Is that a mafia rule? I don't think I've ever played a mafia game where there's an angel or whatever it's called for mafia.

Thanks,
Jazaray

__________________
A Plastered Dragon Original Limerick:
There was a nice lassie named Jaz
Many wished to have what she has,
A delicate face,
A soft warm embrace,
And a whole lot of bedroom pizzazz.

WeedIan: Jazaray is like MOTL's Mom.

If someone pseudo-reveals himself and the angel does not pick up on it, it won't help when the wolves kill him.
If he does pick up on it, it creates a cat and mouse between the wolves and the angel.

Will he save him this round? or will he make us wait to kill him next round...

Right now the rule is as is, and maybe we will change it to the every other round save if it becomes a problem.

~MM

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quote:

---

Originally posted by MeddlingMage:
I think that maybe a person can not be saved twice in a row should be the rule.

If someone pseudo-reveals himself and the angel does not pick up on it, it won't help when the wolves kill him.
If he does pick up on it, it creates a cat and mouse between the wolves and the angel.

Will he save him this round? or will he make us wait to kill him next round...

Right now the rule is as is, and maybe we will change it to the every other round save if it becomes a problem.

~MM

---