quote:

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Originally posted by AtriumXP:
I have no qualms with someone haggling. I have qualms with them not just being up front about it.

Counteroffers are great because it's a negotiation that is normally fruitful for both parties (motivated seller moves their cards, buyer potentially gets a break... win/win!)

Whining about where they can find everything for less is a waste of our time and an insult to our intelligence; otherwise, stop wasting our time and just go there, right? Crap or get off the pot.

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Yup, if Ebay is so much cheaper, why even attempt to go anywhere else?

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Originally posted by junichi:
He has a point.

Why pay the same for less? eBay provides buyer protection, and MOTL doesn't. eBay doesn't force you to buy insurance to be protected, which you do. I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp for some of us.

However, in this case, he wants quite a bit of stuff from you, which if he buys from you instead of eBay, he could probably save a lot from shipping, unless he could find an eBay seller who has all the stuff that you are offering and get a combined shipping.

Obviously, it's up to him to decide if it is worthwhile to have less protection for the benefit of saving a few dollars in shipping, but I don't think he is out of line at all.

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Posting useless crap (whining about a virtual 15% price increase) on peoples sale list is definitly out of line and against the rules of MOTL.

quote:

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Originally posted by MOTL: Never up someone else's post by posting anything other than valid offers.

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So, obvious rules infraction #1 right there. Might want to get on that Jaz.

He can go to Ebay if he doesn't want to give a 15% increase in price to the seller. The fact that seller recieves less than the actual selling price on Ebay doesn't make non-Ebay transactions worth 15% less than the average ending price in any world other than his head.

No, I have never asked for 15-25% off on 70% of the cards I wanted outside of buying someone's entire collection, and I certainly have never once responded negatively when an offer I made is turned down.

quote:

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Originally posted by AtriumXP:
Just to be absolutely clear... I encourage haggling. But don't tell me about eBay pricing and overhead fees. What's next, cost of living differences between New York City and Wyoming? Just say you are willing to pay X rather than Y, and go from there

That's my only point.

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This....

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:
And you're defending him because he's who he is.

No, I have never asked for 15-25% off on 70% of the cards I wanted outside of buying someone's entire collection, and I certainly have never once responded negatively when an offer I made is turned down.

I also honestly don't really care about the contents of the BTA. When you're having problems on this site and you've been here for about a week, on top of telling people to send first to him and the "haggling" that's done, huge red flags are raised that you're a problem trader that I just don't want to deal with. Plenty of people here to deal with that don't ask you to send first when they have 0 refs, plenty of people that don't ask for 15-25% off on everything, and plenty of people that hasn't posted more than one or two BTAs against someone in YEARS.

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No, I'm defending him because I think you guys are being hypocritical. From what I saw of his post on MAB's thread, he wasn't asking for 15 - 25% off of everything, he was willing to pay asking price on some of the cards, and wanted to haggle on the rest. I see no problem in haggling for a better price, and obviously a lot of other people don't either, as I see people offering lower than asking price quite often.

As for the BTA post... seriously? So, if you've only been here for a short while, you shouldn't post BTA cases? Even if they're VALID ones? You posted one about two weeks after you joined MOTL. Oh, but THAT'S different right, because it's YOU, right? Guess that should have been a huge red flag that you were a problem trader and people shouldn't have dealt with you, right? Please, let us know when is the APPROPRIATE length of time that someone needs to be a member before they should file a BTA case. After a month? Six months? A year or more?

And there are some people that have posted a BTA case three or more times a year. Your point being?

Yeah, he's asking people to send first, as do MOST new members, before they understand the complexity of MOTL. We make fun of them, let them know that's not how MOTL works, and everyone gets along. Why is this different?

Thanks,
Jazaray

__________________
A Plastered Dragon Original Limerick:
There was a nice lassie named Jaz
Many wished to have what she has,
A delicate face,
A soft warm embrace,
And a whole lot of bedroom pizzazz.

WeedIan: Jazaray is like MOTL's Mom.

quote:

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Originally posted by airwalk:
Posting useless crap (whining about a virtual 15% price increase) on peoples sale list is definitly out of line and against the rules of MOTL.

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His response was logical, and I don't see that being useless. We have also been guilty of posting nonsense in T/A, so I am not sure why suddenly everyone becomes a rule lawyer.

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Originally posted by Lord Crovax:
Yup, if Ebay is so much cheaper, why even attempt to go anywhere else?

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I think you misunderstood the point. No one is saying eBay is cheaper. People are just questioning why the sellers on MOTL aren't passing the 10-15% savings in fee and whatnot to the buyer.

I agree, wholeheartedly, that the seller doesn't have to pass any savings to the customers. However, eBay does provide added value to a transaction (buyer's protection, eBay bucks, etc...), which I think it is not unreasonable for the buyer to ask the seller to lower the price of the goods to reflect the lack of those benefits on MOTL.

__________________
MOTL Fantasy NBA 2010 Champion

quote:

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:

I just happened to end up posting about this one because someone defended him for responding negatively after his offer was declined. Which is a point you failed to respond to in your continued argument that it's okay to haggle.

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Actually, I did respond to it. I said I didn't see anywhere in that quote where he insulted MAB. And I still don't.

And you're right, only you can dictate whom you trade with and why, I find your reasoning extremely flawed, but it is YOUR reasoning and I do not have to agree with it. By your reasoning, I shouldn't have posted a BTA case 12 days after I joined because someone attempted to rip me off of a Lotus. Either that, or people shouldn't have traded with me, apparently because it was my fault that someone tried to rip me off... And it's all those other people's fault that someone sends them played cards instead of NM cards, or because someone backed out of a trade after weeks or months of no contact with the OP.

Thanks,
Jazaray

__________________
A Plastered Dragon Original Limerick:
There was a nice lassie named Jaz
Many wished to have what she has,
A delicate face,
A soft warm embrace,
And a whole lot of bedroom pizzazz.

WeedIan: Jazaray is like MOTL's Mom.

quote:

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Originally posted by junichi:
His response was logical, and I don't see that being useless. We have also been guilty of posting nonsense in T/A, so I am not sure why suddenly everyone becomes a rule lawyer.

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It might be logical to you, it's simply annoying to me (and others). I don't expect buyers to justify their counter-offer with any logic or reasoning. I list a price and you can offer whatever you want, I can then accept or turn you down, or continue haggling.

quote:

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Originally posted by airwalk:
It might be logical to you, it's simply annoying to me (and others). I don't expect buyers to justify their counter-offer with any logic or reasoning. I list a price and you can offer whatever you want, I can then accept or turn you down, or continue haggling.

Attempting to justify why your counter-offer is a good price in attempt to force a deal is just an annoying practice (especially if it's in public and not via PM or e-mail). All I care about is getting the minimum price I'm willing to sell for.

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This......seems poor Jazaray and Bagbokk got a tad bit off track

quote:

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Originally posted by Jazaray:
Wow, you guys are harsh. So, none of you offer less than a posted price, ever? None of you ever haggle for a price? That's him "trying to throw his weight around here"? I don't see you complaining about baldr7 trying to "throw his weight around" in asking for a deal on the cards he wanted. I also fail to see the insult in that quote.. How was he insulting MAB? And have you READ the BTA case? You're telling me that were you in his position, you would have just paid NM price for a non-NM card, that you were told was NM, and showed pictures of that don't match the card you received?

You guys are sitting there, saying that he's being insulting because he's a pro, when in fact, you're holding him to standards you wouldn't hold anyone else to, because he's a pro.

And yes, that is the real Tom Martell.

Thanks,
Jazaray

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quote:

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Originally posted by airwalk:
It might be logical to you, it's simply annoying to me (and others). I don't expect buyers to justify their counter-offer with any logic or reasoning. I list a price and you can offer whatever you want, I can then accept or turn you down, or continue haggling.

Attempting to justify why your counter-offer is a good price in attempt to force a deal is just an annoying practice (especially if it's in public and not via PM or e-mail). All I care about is getting the minimum price I'm willing to sell for.

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First of all, I don't see how he is forcing a deal. Second, why is it not acceptable to persuade the seller that the counter price is fair? Isn't that the point of haggling? Some of you in the previous thread regarding the same topic mentioned that the ability to haggle is what makes MOTL better than eBay, and now we got this?

__________________
MOTL Fantasy NBA 2010 Champion

I actually only replied to MAB on his thread because he came to my thread and I assumed there was some reason for his cross thread posting.

I could not care less about him rejecting my prices; they are his cards and he is free to dispose of them as he likes. If he had replied with "no thanks" or just not replied at all I would never have blinked twice and would have happily moved on with my life.

But his response invoking ebay prices is so ridiculous on its face that I wanted to at least point out the absurdity and I couldn't resist. I would have done it in my own thread but he'd come to my thread to reply to my post in his thread so it seemed like the thing I was supposed to do. I actually initially posted my reply in my own thread before wondering if that was not how you guys communicate here as it was so weird he replied to my post in a differet thread than I made it.

quote:

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Originally posted by junichi:
First of all, I don't see how he is forcing a deal. Second, why is it not acceptable to persuade the seller that the counter price is fair? Isn't that the point of haggling? Some of you in the previous thread regarding the same topic mentioned that the ability to haggle is what makes MOTL better than eBay, and now we got this?

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Think the point of not saying "I can get it for less on X site" is that gets real slippery real quick, just rather see

X > Y, yes/no, and move on.

Really no gain from trying to point out you can get it cheaper elsewhere, just seems, rude.

quote:

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Originally posted by junichi:
First of all, I don't see how he is forcing a deal. Second, why is it not acceptable to persuade the seller that the counter price is fair? Isn't that the point of haggling? Some of you in the previous thread regarding the same topic mentioned that the ability to haggle is what makes MOTL better than eBay, and now we got this?

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I'm not arguing against haggling at all, it simply doesn't need to involve anything other than dollar values. tommartell said it would be insane to buy from him when he could get the cards cheaper on E-bay. He wasn't haggling in his post, he was just being abrasive, publically, on a board where that is supposed to be frowned upon.

quote:

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Originally posted by airwalk:
Posting useless crap (whining about a virtual 15% price increase) on peoples sale list is definitly out of line and against the rules of MOTL.

So, obvious rules infraction #1 right there. Might want to get on that Jaz.

He can go to Ebay if he doesn't want to give a 15% increase in price to the seller. The fact that seller recieves less than the actual selling price on Ebay doesn't make non-Ebay transactions worth 15% less than the average ending price in any world other than his head.

Guys a douche, the end.

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It is hard not to give a smart ass reply to this given how insulting you are to someone you've never met, but I'll give it a go and try to treat you with more respect than you showed me.

He is the one who brought up ebay as though it was ridiculous to expect cards to sell for less elsewhere. I've already addressed why I responded in his thread so I won't rehash that.

quote:

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Originally posted by airwalk:
The fact that seller recieves less than the actual selling price on Ebay doesn't make non-Ebay transactions worth 15% less than the average ending price in any world other than his head.

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You are actually just wrong here. In the ebay scenario, a third party clearing house is imposing external transaction costs on a sale, effectively taxing both parties. The sellers decide they want a minimum of X dollars for their goods so they list them at X+15% to compensate for the transaction costs imposed by ebay. Buyers in this scenario are accepting the transaction costs and paying them to ebay in order to finalize a deal.

Buyers actually do realize some gains from this - insurance, convenience of platform (ebay is much easier to use than a web forum), etc.

When both parties move to a lower cost environment to transact, the reasonable starting point would be somewhere between what the buyer was previously paying and the seller previously receiving and it is a matter of market forces and supply/demand skew to determine how to chop up this extra 15%.

But the obviously fair starting point would be a 7.5% discount from ebay prices so both parties get to split the savings. It is actually ridiculous to suggest that all of the savings go to the seller as then the buyer is losing out on the benefits of using ebay for no gain.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:

I started with <$1,000 in paypal funds with another $1,000 worth of cards to sell and the last time I valued my collection it was around 18k if I sold everything individually, and this was in about 8 months time (about 30-40% of it has either been sold or is pending by now). Profits aren't going to be very high without turning it into a full-time job with some sort of store-front (even if it's just an eBay store) though. It's also something you can just drop as soon as you don't feel like doing it anymore--just stop sourcing for more stuff to buy, and sell off whatever you still have in stock.

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2k worth of cards and/or cash and you turned it into 18k? I find this hard to beleive. Could you please explain this to me in an email? Hell, I will give you my cell number to contact me about doing this, as it is something I would love to do. I do not think my collection is even worth like $100 right now (not including my 1x each collection of Shocklands- They have to sit in my fave artist Rob Alexander collection ) I am very interested on how to expand m y collection, turn it into a small business or whatever. But definetly want an 18k collection.

Email is in my profile. Please lmk.

Thanks!

~Revenger

__________________
Motl member since November 1, 2000

Your 2008 and 2010 Motl Siskel & Ebert award winner!

37th in refs on Motl!

First in refs in state of Arizona!

quote:

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Originally posted by airwalk:
tommartell said it would be insane to buy from him when he could get the cards cheaper on E-bay.

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quote:

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Originally posted by revenger:
2k worth of cards and/or cash and you turned it into 18k? I find this hard to beleive. Could you please explain this to me in an email? Hell, I will give you my cell number to contact me about doing this, as it is something I would love to do. I do not think my collection is even worth like $100 right now (not including my 1x each collection of Shocklands- They have to sit in my fave artist Rob Alexander collection ) I am very interested on how to expand m y collection, turn it into a small business or whatever. But definetly want an 18k collection.

Email is in my profile. Please lmk.

Thanks!

~Revenger

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Heh, I would second this.

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Originally posted by tommartell:

You are actually just wrong here. In the ebay scenario, a third party clearing house is imposing external transaction costs on a sale, effectively taxing both parties. The sellers decide they want a minimum of X dollars for their goods so they list them at X+15% to compensate for the transaction costs imposed by ebay. Buyers in this scenario are accepting the transaction costs and paying them to ebay in order to finalize a deal.

Buyers actually do realize some gains from this - insurance, convenience of platform (ebay is much easier to use than a web forum), etc.

When both parties move to a lower cost environment to transact, the reasonable starting point would be somewhere between what the buyer was previously paying and the seller previously receiving and it is a matter of market forces and supply/demand skew to determine how to chop up this extra 15%.

But the obviously fair starting point would be a 7.5% discount from ebay prices so both parties get to split the savings. It is actually ridiculous to suggest that all of the savings go to the seller as then the buyer is losing out on the benefits of using ebay for no gain.

So I would suggest that a really simple analysis of ebay as a marketplace and transaction costs in general suggest that it is not just in my head that it is strange to use ebay closing prices as a fair value for cash transactions on other platforms.

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Your penetrating insight into the economics of E-bay pricing is wonderful. However, this is site is far less a marketplace than E-bay and more a craigslist for Magic. The typical seles prices habitually follow the average ending prices without taking into account anything you mentioned even if it is a lower cost operating invironment (as someone else mentioned, it's a lower priced operating environment because you have no protections offered by E-bay). So your arguement, while valid and logical, isn't widely accepted by most sellers here. That's just an FYI, you're free to offer sellers buylist price - 7.5%-15% or whatever other figure you want.

quote:

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Originally posted by tommartell:
You wouldn't find it insane to pay more for a card on a platform that doesn't charge transaction costs and doesn't offer fringe benefits to buyers?

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