Also, when MAB replies to Tom's prices with "...I am not willing to go lower than e-bay." Tom replies with "...why would I pay more than what I can get a card for on eBay?"

He didn't say he wanted eBay plus $1. He said he wasn't willing to go for less than eBay value. There is an added cost to the time it takes to track down multiple auctions, wait for them to end, and win them. Not to mention finding a single buyer who is willing to combine shipping who has all the cards you want.

Finally, if I was MAB, I'd be a little miffed about:

quote:

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Originally posted by tommartell:
So you are taking advantage of buyers who may not realize that claiming ebay as fair value inflates prices by 15%+?

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eBay values are not inflated by any percentage. As everyone always likes to point out, everything is worth what someone will pay for it. The auction format cleanly establishes a baseline for what a large number of people are willing to pay for things. That is the fair value of those cards, not what the seller receives in hand after fees are calculated.

quote:

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Originally posted by CubFan81:
if I remember correctly even the Troll and Toad buyer was willing to send payment first for deal made through MOTL until they built up enough refs to not require it anymore. The general setup has always been, 0 refs, you send first.

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Troll and Toad does this as a business. They have a team of people who spend all day, every day buying card, sorting cards, grading cards, etc. It costs them nothing to incur the hassle of dealing with a few bad deals, especially when buying in bulk.

quote:

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Originally posted by CubFan81:
eBay values are not inflated by any percentage. As everyone always likes to point out, everything is worth what someone will pay for it. The auction format cleanly establishes a baseline for what a large number of people are willing to pay for things. That is the fair value of those cards, not what the seller receives in hand after fees are calculated.

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This is simply wrong. I'm not going to keep beating this dead horse but there are probably hundreds of good articles on the internet that explain bid ask spreads, working mid, calculating a true fair value, etc. and how prices vary on different markets to incorporate different transaction costs.

quote:

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Originally posted by MasterWolf:
Jaz: My understanding of BTA rules is that if there is a disagreement in a BTA case about who is at fault than neither party can engage in further trading until the matter is resolved. When two parties have cases against each other, to prevent there being two active cases, you ask the second person to go ahead and post evidence in the first thread. That does not mean that their case is any less important or worthwhile, correct? In which case neither party should continue trading before a resolution is reached.

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There was no disagreement as to who was at fault. In this instance, it was Raber who was the "bad trader". He sent a card in the incorrect condition. Why should Tom (or ANY OTHER MEMBER) be punished for someone else sending a card in the wrong condition?

Thanks,
Jazaray

__________________
A Plastered Dragon Original Limerick:
There was a nice lassie named Jaz
Many wished to have what she has,
A delicate face,
A soft warm embrace,
And a whole lot of bedroom pizzazz.

WeedIan: Jazaray is like MOTL's Mom.

quote:

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Originally posted by tommartell:
Troll and Toad does this as a business. They have a team of people who spend all day, every day buying card, sorting cards, grading cards, etc. It costs them nothing to incur the hassle of dealing with a few bad deals, especially when buying in bulk.

I don't have the time or interest in dealing with failed trades and chasing people down trying to get my money back or return cards that don't match the conditions stated in a post. If sellers do not like the terms of my purchase they are free to not take my money and do business elsewhere. I am a little perplexed at how you find it offensive for me to state the terms upon which I will do business and provide an option for liquidity to some sellers.

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I believe the offensive bit is people value refs here, and for you to believe you can bypass the system set in place is, well offensive to many who worked hard to build their refs to the point they can ask people to send first.

That's at least how I see it, you are of course free to ignore that and do as you please, but the odds of it working well for you, are sadly slim.

quote:

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Originally posted by Lord Crovax:
I believe the offensive bit is people value refs here, and for you to believe you can bypass the system set in place is, well offensive to many who worked hard to build their refs to the point they can ask people to send first.

That's at least how I see it, you are of course free to ignore that and do as you please, but the odds of it working well for you, are sadly slim.

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The purpose of references is to instill confidence that the person on the other side of the transaction will provide what they say they will. You need references when you do
not know the person you are dealing with and it is very easy for someone on the internet to suddenly vanish.

People here have worked hard to build their references because no one knows who they are and they need a system to validate themselves. I've worked just as hard building my own network of references; the fact that it wasn't through trades here doesn't change that.

I am exclusively buying cards, I am not doing any selling, so I don't need to prove I can properly grade my cards and represent their condition. The only concern is if I will send money as I promise to, and for this it is very narrow minded to only consider previous MOTL transactions as reference material.

quote:

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Originally posted by paragondave:
We also have the choice to not deal with you.

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Of course! By all means, take your business elsewhere. I just think that it is (a) illogical and (b) don't understand why you are offended by my position.

quote:

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Originally posted by tommartell:
Of course! By all means, take your business elsewhere. I just think that it is (a) illogical and (b) don't understand why you are offended by my position.

I am legitimately curious as to (a) - if you have a good reason why you need 100 references from me to feel safe that I am not going to steal your cards, I'd love to hear it.

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I think it has to do with the whole "Magic Fame" bit, but that's just how I see the various posts reading out.

Basically sounds like I'm a big magic player and don't need your ref's".

Wether that is right or wrong *Shrugs* no clue, it's just how I'm reading everyone else's comments.

Me personally I don't know you, sure many people do, I don't, don't follow big name players at all, you being who you are means nothing to me when making a deal, so giving refs, I would require you to send first 100% of the time, but that's just me.

Hmm, thinking about it, probably comes down to that, people who know you and people who don't, not sure sources outside the site matter, never even thought about it till now.

The community has had its issues with (I guess they are) Pop stars (well, stores,other noted names [I guess? I dunno who the heck they are]) coming into motl and attempting to muscle their way to get theri deals. I'm sure you don't mean it, but some people can get really defensive when it looks like you knock over the tower of cards they've been trying to build (in this case, cards is reputation on motl... I think).

What point is all the reference work they've done here if it doesn't apply to certain people? Heck, I'm a LGS pop star. Send to me first, bro. =3

Also, I think by about 50, you beat out a lot of people and they don't mind simulsending. 100's a bit steep, man.

Tldr, I read your posts, they make sense, but some people infer a tone on your words that you may or may not be trying to use.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kyosukee:
Also, I think by about 50, you beat out a lot of people and they don't mind simulsending. 100's a bit steep, man.

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Yup, 50-60 is about right, once at that point, refs seem to matter a little less.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kyosukee:
I wouldn't fault you if you sounded like a d on purpose; the folk seem to be unusually riled by you.

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He does sound a bit "D"ish~!lol

quote:

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Originally posted by Jazaray:
There was no disagreement as to who was at fault. In this instance, it was Raber who was the "bad trader". He sent a card in the incorrect condition. Why should Tom (or ANY OTHER MEMBER) be punished for someone else sending a card in the wrong condition?

Thanks,
Jazaray

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This is incorrect. You instructed Tom to pay shipping at the beginning of the thread indicating that Tom at the very least owed Raber shipping costs, which is what Raber tried to BTA Tom for before you closed it down. There was a dispute between two parties, where both felt the other person was the bad trader. As it turns out, you resolved the dispute and all is well. Nonetheless, MOTL precedent has always been that if you are in the middle of a BTA case (read: have a complaint against you in the BTA) you should not be active in buying, selling, or trading. The reason being is so that if Tom decided "screw it, I ain't paying" and gets banned from the site, others are not then screwed out of their money/cards. Not saying he would do that, but to protect the members that has always been the policy to the best of my knowledge.

quote:

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Originally posted by tommartell:
The purpose of references is to instill confidence that the person on the other side of the transaction will provide what they say they will. You need references when you do
not know the person you are dealing with and it is very easy for someone on the internet to suddenly vanish.

People here have worked hard to build their references because no one knows who they are and they need a system to validate themselves. I've worked just as hard building my own network of references; the fact that it wasn't through trades here doesn't change that.

I am exclusively buying cards, I am not doing any selling, so I don't need to prove I can properly grade my cards and represent their condition. The only concern is if I will send money as I promise to, and for this it is very narrow minded to only consider previous MOTL transactions as reference material.

Demanding references because you always demand references doesn't make sense to me; if you think about why you need references, I'm not at risk to suddenly vanish with your cards and never be seen again. I'm easy to find. You have lots of avenues of recourse against me.

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quote:

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Originally posted by rats60:
No, it's about respecting the other person who has spent time on this site establishing themselves. References on other sites are meaningless. Your claim about being easy to find is false. Often times it would cost more than one's time to make it worth while. If Troll and Toad is willing to pay me first, what makes you so special that you can demand everyone send first to you? That's not the way it's done here. You are just disrespecting the members of MOTL.

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In which of these scenarios are you better off:

There are 5 buylists posted offering to purchase various cards at different prices. All 5 will pay first.

There are 6 buylists posted offering to purchase various cards at different prices. 5 will pay first, 1 will pay upon receipt.

quote:

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Originally posted by tommartell:

Why are you angry that I am offering you another avenue to achieve liquidity for your cards? If you don't want to send first, then just move along. If you are willing to entertain the idea, then see if we can find a deal.

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The thing is, if you post something that says, I won't pay first. You're just going to get a bunch of responses that either say. LOL, you shouldn't expect people to pay first with no refs, or "I'll sell you xyz if you're willing to pay first".

With your example. If I can get the same money from someone else, why would I risk my stuff on a member with no feedback?

So, let me start with another "welcome to MOTL" because I'm not sure you're feeling much love here yet.

Now that it's out of the way, let me just one more time try to illustrate the problem some of us seem to have (and I'm actually not one of them at this point). It has nothing to do with being a pro player, nothing to do with proving that you might be (or might not be) who you claim to be. The way I see this, it has everything to do with the minor arrogance behind sweeping in here and just bucking the trend.

Honestly, I don't need more than 5 references before I feel fine dealing with people here. 50+ is extreme in my eyes, and likely because I've done WAY more deals here than what people have left me feedback for. That means I value the mere 35 (practically glowing) I do have. I go out of my way to provide the best customer service I can, and even hit up Vistaprint to create a "little something" token for people to remember me by. Nobody is asking you to do this, but I've seen a few others do something similar (signing toploaders, including personal notes, adding throw-ins, etc.).

My point is that these sort of things, along with playing by the spoken and unspoken rules, is what generates that sense of community I really enjoy here. Maybe the "0 refs but you send first" attitude erodes that when there are plenty of other users with 0/low refs trying to establish themselves here. Some people really take that personally, along with the largely niggling approach to haggling I pointed out before.

Either way, I'm fine with trading with you, and do sincerely welcome you into the fold. All I ask is that if we do end up having business together, show me a modicum of respect. We're all generally nice guys n' gals here... it's just that some things ruffle our feathers a bit.

Sorry, I don't like giving away my rights to recourse and paying the same price as EBay, AND being asked to give fees to have PayPal buyer protection.

Edit: Being able to haggle on MOTL is a joke, by the way. It's not an advantage, because most people on the sell side won't do it.

quote:

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Originally posted by tommartell:
In which of these scenarios are you better off:

There are 5 buylists posted offering to purchase various cards at different prices. All 5 will pay first.

There are 6 buylists posted offering to purchase various cards at different prices. 5 will pay first, 1 will pay upon receipt.

Why are you angry that I am offering you another avenue to achieve liquidity for your cards? If you don't want to send first, then just move along. If you are willing to entertain the idea, then see if we can find a deal.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Zakman86:
MOTL's been way too biased towards the sellers for a long time; if you don't understand that this is the case, I feel very sorry for you. It's also why I've taken much of my business away from the site and to EBay.

Sorry, I don't like giving away my rights to recourse and paying the same price as EBay, AND being asked to give fees to have PayPal buyer protection.

Edit: Being able to haggle on MOTL is a joke, by the way. It's not an advantage, because most people on the sell side won't do it.

It's a shame, because there are some people I've dealt with on MOTL who are great, but the site isn't the same anymore since the wannabe dealers came. It used to be that MOTL had more risk than EBay but more reward since the prices were a little lower. Now that the prices are the same, what's my motivation to be part of the trading community?

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I think what you are observing here is a source of most of the "conflict" with what I've tried to do in my thread. If I want to interact with dealers, I'll go sell to CFB or SCG on their websites or buy from them there or on eBay. I was trying to find other people who are looking to deal near the mid.

If SCG is buying card X for $50 and selling it for $100, there is a ton of room for two non-dealer individuals who want to move a specific card to find a happy solution. But if you are another dealer, then you also want to buy basically at $50 and sell at basically $100 and I am not the person you want to talk to.

quote:

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Originally posted by rats60:
There's no difference because I'm not sending first to 0 refs, that's stupid. I'd rather send first to a dealer or just sell on Ebay.Who's going to send first to you? If you buy on Ebay, you pay first. If you buy from an online store you pay first. Why don't you pay your dues and earn the right to have other people send first to you instead of just insulting this community by acting like you're better than everyone else?

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quote:

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Originally posted by rats60:
There's no difference because I'm not sending first to 0 refs, that's stupid. I'd rather send first to a dealer or just sell on Ebay.Who's going to send first to you? If you buy on Ebay, you pay first. If you buy from an online store you pay first. Why don't you pay your dues and earn the right to have other people send first to you instead of just insulting this community by acting like you're better than everyone else?

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quote:

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Originally posted by fwybwed:
I think I would dislike this guy Tom if i met him in a store or game night. Might wanna spill a root beer float on his trade binder...

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