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Originally posted by Bagbokk:
No. Having the money to buy these cards doesn't put you in an elite club that you should feel proud to be in and try to exclude everyone else from. What's good for the game is for people to actually play and be able to play competitively. The more people that play and the more active the game is, the better the game is doing, even if it hurts you individually or hurts the people who think they're awesome solely by virtue of owning a $320 set of Tarmogoyfs that others can't afford. You can disagree with wanting them reprinted all you want, but you need to man up and admit that you're being just as selfish as they are in not wanting them reprinted, instead of insulting them and thinking you're better than them for whatever reason.

Ferrari analogy is so completely irrelevant it's not even funny.

It doesn't matter how many people CAN pay the higher prices as long as there's an appreciable number that can't. If you have 60% people that can afford these $1000 decks and you have 40% that can't, then you only have 60% of the Magic population playing competitively in tournaments. That is not as good for the game as 100% of the Magic population playing competitively (as long as they want to, obv).

And just because you can pay the higher prices doesn't mean that it's bad if it gets reprinted so others can get the same cards. I can buy whatever I want and build whatever deck I feel like, but if the guy next to me can't, the game isn't as good when I just roll right over him every time.

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Originally posted by choco man:
I'm unemployed right now, so it'd take infinite months for me to afford the Ferrari that I want. I really want them to reprint Ferraris so I can afford them. Wow, see how lame that is...

Once again, the "they" whom you are referring to are selfish and feel entitled to have every card easily. I just don't see how reprints on the scale they want help the game at all.

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Horrible argument is horrible. Seriously, that's the worst comparison I've ever heard. Your talking about a 6-figure luxury car vs. pieces of cardboard.

Yes, there is a population who can afford to pay these prices. However, I'd wager there are many more people who can't or don't want to invest that kind of money in a handful of cards. Why should they be excluded from being able to access non-reserved list cards because they lack the funds to do so?

What about the new players who start every day and have an interest in competitive play? Should they be penalized because they weren't playing when these cards were originally printed?

If prices climb too high (as they have been) you will reach a breaking point in any format. Look at Vintage. Almost nobody plays that format anymore in a competitive form because the barrier for entry is enormous. Just look at the Modern results from the PT. Almost every non-combo/non-12post list ran Goyf. There is no comparable replacement for that creature. So, people will have to drop $350+ on a playset of one single card. I'm sorry, but that's a pretty discouraging barrier for anyone looking to try out that format with a deck that can actually compete.

It makes no sense for WotC to not reprint cards that are in demand and not on the reserve list. It will sell packs. Dealers shouldn't be too upset about it either because if interest in older formats increases then there's a good chance demand for non-reprinted cards will increase as well.

I also don't think it's selfish for people to want to have the cards needed to build the deck they want to play without having to plop down a car payment to get one small piece of their 75-card deck.

__________________
Wisconsin - smells like dairy air!

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Originally posted by bstrom213:
Wow, so glad you are not working for wotc

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For every person who would think this, there is probably another that thinks the opposite. I'd be working in their legal department and not their game design or anything, anyway.

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:
For every person who would think this, there is probably another that thinks the opposite. I'd be working in their legal department and not their game design or anything, anyway.

Still, this isn't an argument for why cards shouldn't be reprinted. Much less one that isn't every bit as selfish, which is my point. I responded to choco's post not so much because I want cards to be reprinted en masse (how else would I make money buying and selling cards?) but to point out exactly the lack of substance in his argument. There is zero basis for the argument that reprints wouldn't help the game (if there is, no one has argued it so far) and the argument against reprinting is every bit as selfish as the argument for reprinting, so one side calling the other selfish adds nothing to the argument, but is instead simply insulting.

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They don't purposely reprint cards that will warp standard.

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Originally posted by choco man:
I'm unemployed right now, so it'd take infinite months for me to afford the Ferrari that I want. I really want them to reprint Ferraris so I can afford them. Wow, see how lame that is...

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Except they make new Ferraris every year. Nice job comparing apples to oranges though.

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Once again, the "they" whom you are referring to are selfish and feel entitled to have every card easily. I just don't see how reprints on the scale they want help the game at all.

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I'm part of the "they" you call selfish, and wanting to not spend 2 months pay to build a competitive Zoo deck doesn't make me, or anyone else, selfish. You and every other collector and dealer who doesn't want cards reprinted because it will make them cheaper are the selfish ones. And how is reprinting Goyf, Burnwillows, Confidant, and shock duals bad for the game or Wizards?

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Originally posted by WeedIan:
They don't purposely reprint cards that will warp standard.

Reprinting goyf wouldn't help standard it would make it a 56 card + 4x goyf format.

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Originally posted by Volcanon:
Where can I buy the Commander decks at something approximating what the contents are actually worth? eBay has idiots asking for insane shipping and local stores want basically full retail.

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They're pretty much worth full retail, not sure what you're getting at.

Everyone else, for this whole cant afford thing, problem is some people wont be happy till everything is worth less then 5, some people refuse to pay 4 a pack, some people won't even pay 5 to enter a event, regardless of event. End result some people will simply never be happy no matter what happens.

Me personally I could careless if they reprint things like Goyf, I used to have a set currently don't, not to bothered to have to pay out 400 to get a new set if I needed to, and this is comming from someone with little to no income atm...

Just part of life if you want something work for it, otherwise you need to just shut up or put up...whine and get you get jack, cept maybe a few dozen people sending words your way you might not like..

and thus ends my rant, now back to your regularly scheduled Post for Magic Stuff part 60...

I want WOTC to continue to print NEW cards.

Morons accused WOTC of cash-grab when they reprinted Baneslayer Angel. I bet you were happy since you didn't have to spend $30 to buy BS Angel anymore. But how much did it really help the game/standard AT ALL that they reprinted an expensive mythic rare? Absolutely, nada. WOTC created Titans and changed the game. This is what I want to see WOTC do. If they reprint anything, please reprint stuff that's not ACTUALLY ALREADY IN MODERN. And yet, you senselessly accuse me of being selfish because you can't afford cards.

You don't have to play Magic and you don't have to play Modern. Expensive cards are good for the game in general. Would you really spend $12-$15 to draft if your cards were worthless? Probably not, since prizes are generally packs or store credit used to get packs.

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They don't purposely reprint cards that will warp standard.

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I agree, although there are ways of reprinting cards without making them standard-legal.

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Just part of life if you want something work for it, otherwise you need to just shut up or put up...whine and get you get jack, cept maybe a few dozen people sending words your way you might not like..

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Yes and no. People are treating Magic like it's a game where you have to "earn" your cards. Magic doesn't have to be like a MMO where the time investment is infinite just to gain levels/gold; it can be like chess where the only time investment you really need is to get better at the game, not so you can afford to buy a pawn to play with a full set of pieces.

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And yet, you senselessly accuse me of being selfish because you can't afford cards.

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This is because your original post offered absolutely zero argument and did nothing but insult people who disagreed with you. You get what you put in. At least your newest post includes some coherent arguments about why simply reprinting cards doesn't help the game.

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I want WOTC to continue to print NEW cards.

Morons accused WOTC of cash-grab when they reprinted Baneslayer Angel. I bet you were happy since you didn't have to spend $30 to buy BS Angel anymore. But how much did it really help the game/standard AT ALL that they reprinted an expensive mythic rare? Absolutely, nada. WOTC created Titans and changed the game. This is what I want to see WOTC do. If they reprint anything, please reprint stuff that's not ACTUALLY ALREADY IN MODERN.

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Why can't they do both at the same time? Reprinting cards already in existence isn't going to take away from their R&D on new stuff. It also doesn't have to break Standard either.

Printing new cards doesn't solve the problem because many older cards will never be replaced. I don't know anything about BS Angel because I wasn't playing during that time, but I do know that duals have been a staple in Vintage/Legacy since, well, pretty much forever. Nothing they printed has ever or probably WILL ever replace them. Thus their price will simply keep going up and up so long as those formats are being supported and played. At minimum they'll stay approximately where they're at, which is still pretty damn expensive.

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You don't have to play Magic and you don't have to play Modern.

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Wow. Yeah, less people playing Magic really benefits the game. You know, a game that wouldn't EXIST without its players.

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Expensive cards are good for the game in general. Would you really spend $12-$15 to draft if your cards were worthless? Probably not, since prizes are generally packs or store credit used to get packs.

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So the stores can't change their prize format?

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The Ferrari analogy isn't apples/oranges. Complaining about how they should change something just because you can't afford it is lame. How does this not apply? No, they do not reprint Ferraris each year, that's why some antique cars are +$1 mil. They do come out with new models.

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http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19620_Round_3_Andy_Hanson_vs_Alex_Bertonc ini.html

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33477

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Originally posted by eXtremeEagle:
One point not mentioned yet, Wizards can reprint 'Goyf without breaking Standard. All they have to do is put him in a X vs. X deck, a PDS deck, or one of their million other special releases.

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Originally posted by AlmostGrown:
Alex Bertoncini - cheater!

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19620_Round_3_Andy_Hanson_vs_Alex_Bertonc ini.html

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=33477

and Edgar Flores is known for cheating and stealing at Yu Gi Oh events. Also - today he attempted to put a Spellstutter Sprite back into his hand from the graveyard with a Riptide Laboratory.

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Can you explain this a bit more?

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Originally posted by WeedIan:
Is it worth it ever to try and sell uncommons on motl?

i always have extra stuff and i always end up sitting on it and then it just becomes lost in boxes.

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Originally posted by AlmostGrown:
Read the first link (coverage). Notice how he draws a Sower of Temptation, one of merfolk's few outs against Reanimator (aside from bounce spells or countering their reanimation spells). Then look at the 2nd link, his decklist. he has a few Sowers in his sideboard. Go back and read the coverage again. He draws a Sower GAME 1 when they should all be in his SB!

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Dude, thats from 3 months ago. And text coverage gets stuff wrong once in a while. Calm down.

__________________
"He fights you not because you have wronged him, but because you are there."

[16:17] <@BrassMan> what do you need new tech for?
[16:18] <@BrassMan> gush is unrestricted

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Originally posted by thror:
Dude, thats from 3 months ago. And text coverage gets stuff wrong once in a while. Calm down.

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Originally posted by Lord Crovax:
Volc, Walmart still carries them, and know a store that sells for ~MSRP or less, not sure what they have left in stock tho havent been for a few weeks...have to look up the stores online site or you could email be (I don't like posting contact informaiton on forums, even for stores)

Everyone else, for this whole cant afford thing, problem is some people wont be happy till everything is worth less then 5, some people refuse to pay 4 a pack, some people won't even pay 5 to enter a event, regardless of event. End result some people will simply never be happy no matter what happens.

Me personally I could careless if they reprint things like Goyf, I used to have a set currently don't, not to bothered to have to pay out 400 to get a new set if I needed to, and this is comming from someone with little to no income atm...

Just part of life if you want something work for it, otherwise you need to just shut up or put up...whine and get you get jack, cept maybe a few dozen people sending words your way you might not like..

and thus ends my rant, now back to your regularly scheduled Post for Magic Stuff part 60...

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:
Yes and no. People are treating Magic like it's a game where you have to "earn" your cards...it can be like chess where the only time investment you really need is to get better at the game

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Chess is a beautiful game. Chess doesn't even require a chess set if you play in your mind. It's an amazing game. But Chess hasn't changed, there are no new pieces. Magic is a changing game. Magic isn't a game where you have to "earn" cards. But it sure is a game where you have to BUY cards. I want Magic to continue to grow and firmly believe that the workers who make MTG possible deserve to be financially rewarded for making a great game. Cards are worth a lot because the game is great. I want the game to continue to be great. Therefore, I am willing to except that a booming secondary market is consequence of a successful game.

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:
It also doesn't have to break Standard either.

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However, the stuff that people generally complain about reprinting does. Cards have colors for a reason, creatures have certain P/T for a reason.

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:
Printing new cards doesn't solve the problem because many older cards will never be replaced. I do know that duals have been a staple in Vintage/Legacy since, well, pretty much forever. Nothing they printed has ever or probably WILL ever replace them. Thus their price will simply keep going up and up so long as those formats are being supported and played. At minimum they'll stay approximately where they're at, which is still pretty damn expensive.

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Printing new cards does solve the problem. It gives players an alternative to the older formats.

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:
Wow. Yeah, less people playing Magic really benefits the game. You know, a game that wouldn't EXIST without its players.

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Once again, it's players who don't want to pay for the cards who always use this argument. Did you know that most Magic players never play in tournaments? I guess expensive tournament staples won't hinder them from playing.

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:
So the stores can't change their prize format?

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To what? I'm pretty sure the de facto prize for winning a draft/FNM will always be packs or store credit.

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:
Except you don't buy cars to play a game with. Most people don't, anyway. Ferraris are more of a status symbol and is precisely the type of item that you "earn." Magic cards aren't, except maybe the one World Championship card.

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Magic is different things to different people. Not all of them even PLAY. There are a lot of players and collectors who have put a lot of effort into their collection. Who are you to say that Magic can't be something you work very hard for? Players go out of their way to foil decks.

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Bagbokk, your views are very much still "just reprint all the expensive staples so I can play."

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Wrong. It's "reprint staples that get too expensive so everyone can play." It's not a problem for me, I can play anything outside of Vintage-without-proxies. Unfortunately, I can't say the same thing about everyone else out there.

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Magic is a changing game. Magic isn't a game where you have to "earn" cards. But it sure is a game where you have to BUY cards. I want Magic to continue to grow and firmly believe that the workers who make MTG possible deserve to be financially rewarded for making a great game. Cards are worth a lot because the game is great. I want the game to continue to be great. Therefore, I am willing to except that a booming secondary market is consequence of a successful game.

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Yes, you have to buy cards. But absolutely nothing says that to be a good game, the cards have to cost $20+ each and decks $1000. Nor does "reprinting them" mean "make so many copies that they're worth less than toilet paper." A secondary market might be the consequence of a successful game, but it doesn't need to be for the game to continue to be great and successful.

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However, the stuff that people generally complain about reprinting does. Cards have colors for a reason, creatures have certain P/T for a reason.

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Did Berserk become standard legal just because it was reprinted in FTV?

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Printing new cards does solve the problem. It gives players an alternative to the older formats.

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No, not really. Every format is pretty expensive. Standard is the least expensive and that's if you can unload your rotating cards out in time. And you still haven't said anything about why they couldn't reprint AND print new cards.

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Once again, it's players who don't want to pay for the cards who always use this argument. Did you know that most Magic players never play in tournaments? I guess expensive tournament staples won't hinder them from playing.

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Did you know that there are a lot of Magic players who would probably play in tournaments if they thought they could actually compete in them? I guess not being able to build competitive decks does hinder them from playing.

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To what? I'm pretty sure the de facto prize for winning a draft/FNM will always be packs or store credit.

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I can 100% assure you that they will come up with something else should that no longer be worthwhile as prizes. The prizes are what they are now because it has worked for them and they never had to change them.

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So again, just "man-up" and admit that you only want reprints so you can have cheap cards. Don't skirt around about "oh, it's good for the game."

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You've continued to say absolutely nothing that actually backs up your statements that reprinting old cards do not benefit the game. You stated that you want new cards instead, yet you've given zero reasons why they couldn't do both at the same time since reprinting old cards takes very little effort. You say that expensive cards are good for the game, and give only one reason--that prizes for drafts are just packs or store credit, ignoring the fact that cards don't have to be either "worthless" or $50+ and the fact that stores can offer different prizes. Given your lack of real backup for your argument, the general insulting tone of your posts, and the fact that you think your Ferrari analogy is actually valid, it's become pretty clear that you don't want more people to have access to these cards for more personal reasons than for the good of the game. Talk about hypocracy.

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:
You've continued to say absolutely nothing that actually backs up your statements that reprinting old cards do not benefit the game. You stated that you want new cards instead, yet you've given zero reasons why they couldn't do both at the same time since reprinting old cards takes very little effort. You say that expensive cards are good for the game, and give only one reason--that prizes for drafts are just packs or store credit, ignoring the fact that cards don't have to be either "worthless" or $50+ and the fact that stores can offer different prizes. Given your lack of real backup for your argument, the general insulting tone of your posts, and the fact that you think your Ferrari analogy is actually valid, it's become pretty clear that you don't want more people to have access to these cards for more personal reasons than for the good of the game. Talk about hypocracy.

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And exactly what do you say to "back up" any of your points, hypocrite?

It's become clear that you only want reprints so cards are cheap. Isn't that what you want? Cheap cards = more players, isn't that your point for reprints. People complain that mythics are a cash grab from WOTC. Yet these same people want mass reprints/access to expensive staples. Which, ironically, would be cash-grab moves by WOTC. That's hypocrisy.

For WOTC to sell reprints does require little effort. WOTC putting forth little effort should concern you, no?

My point is great game = more players. However, more players = more expensive cards. At what point of that equation do I want fewer players? Cards are expensive because of more players and I want there to be enough support for expensive cards. Doesn't that mean I want there to be a lot players?

This is a whole other issue, but why do you assume that competitive magic is what brings more players into the game?

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:
Regardless, WOTC will do as they will, and I doubt any of us are going to have any considerable sway individually on their decisions. No effect on me either way, honestly.

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I agree with this though.

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And exactly what do you say to "back up" any of your points, hypocrite?

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Basically, you called people selfish for wanting cards reprinted and indirectly insulted MTGS in the process, yet your reasons for NOT wanting cards reprinted appears to be every bit as selfish. Do you not see the problem with making that kind of post without something substantive backing it up? This is an internet forum and all, but people here always talk about how they expect higher quality of posts here. My main purpose in posting, as I stated, was to point out that you had no substance in your first post which was seemingly intended to do nothing but insult people who want cards reprinted. This point was backed up by the part you quoted, in which I pointed out the various arguments you've made and the lack of basis for them. The rest of my posts were basically responses to your responses (and so on).

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It's become clear that you only want reprints so cards are cheap. Isn't that what you want? Cheap cards = more players, isn't that your point for reprints. People complain that mythics are a cash grab from WOTC. Yet these same people want mass reprints/access to expensive staples. Which, ironically, would be cash-grab moves by WOTC. That's hypocrisy.

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Yes, that is the point for reprints. I fully believe it would be better for the game if they did so. It would actually hurt me personally because I do a lot of buying/selling of the same expensive cards that I think should be reprinted. I personally don't care whether something is a "cash grab" move by WOTC. No hypocracy on my part. Others, perhaps. But that doesn't mean they may not have a valid point on this issue. Think about that and respond accordingly, rather than simply insulting them and dismissing a valid argument--that just makes you look bad.

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For WOTC to sell reprints does require little effort. WOTC putting forth little effort should concern you, no?

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Yes, which is why I think that's something they SHOULD be doing, or at least think about doing. I'm happy with the rate at new sets come out, new mechanics introduced, etc. The one major flaw I see with the game is simply the cost.

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My point is great game = more players. However, more players = more expensive cards. At what point of that equation do I want fewer players? Cards are expensive because of more players and I want there to be enough support for expensive cards. Doesn't that mean I want there to be a lot players?

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At least we're in agreement on wanting more players and a great game. However, on the issue of reprints, the point is that the second equation doesn't have to be true. There does not need to be more demand than there is supply for the cards such that the cards must cost so much. WOTC can alter the supply-demand curve by increasing the supply of cards. Then, you simply end up with "great game = more players" without cards necessarily becoming more expensive. Win-win, no?

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This is a whole other issue, but why do you assume that competitive magic is what brings more players into the game?

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I believe both the competitive and the casual scene are essential to what Magic is today, and both brings a substantial number of players into the game. Take something like... well, almost every other card game out there. People play them. They're fun to those people. They still sell cards. But without the major tournament scene, the coverage and the community that surrounds itself around that, it becomes just another card game.

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:

Yes, you have to buy cards. But absolutely nothing says that to be a good game, the cards have to cost $20+ each and decks $1000.

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they most certainly don't. Maybe players that can't afford certain cards shouldn't have the entitlement issue where they deserve to own every card. I mean, why not just sell magic in playsets of each expansion all in English with no foils?

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:
Did you know that there are a lot of Magic players who would probably play in tournaments if they thought they could actually compete in them? I guess not being able to build competitive decks does hinder them from playing.

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there's also the option that they are terrible at the game or simply have fun playing it and don't need to compete. Until you present some data we'll go with the "some players don't play tournaments because they don't want to" option and their reasons for not wanting to can be their own. You forcing the "too expensive" reason on those players is fairly biased.

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Originally posted by Bagbokk:
You say that expensive cards are good for the game, and give only one reason--that prizes for drafts are just packs or store credit

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because if prices drop on cards overall, then packs aren't worth opening. Most packs aren't worth opening in the first place, and if it became worse then wotc sells less product and less money for wizards is generally bad for the game since they kinda keep it supported with the money they make on us.