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Author Topic:   The Post for Magic Stuff, volume 68
Speed Demon
Banned
posted March 24, 2012 04:28 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Speed Demon Click Here to Email Speed Demon Send a private message to Speed Demon Click to send Speed Demon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by hilikuS:
Any of you guys use cardshark.com? Is there any way to dispute a feedback/should I bother? I'm trying to slowly work my way up on their site as far as the sort of ranking system they have. Dude gives me less than a perfect score for not putting the cards in sleeves, despite making sure they're secured in a toploader which was taped tightly shut. In a bubble mailer, and with DC which he didn't even pay for.

Definitely first world problems, but I was just wondering if anyone knew what was up.



Use sleeves in toploaders ffs. It is very easy to damage the card taking them out of the toploader if they aren't in sleeves.

 
AlmostGrown
Member
posted March 24, 2012 05:52 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for AlmostGrown Click Here to Email AlmostGrown Send a private message to AlmostGrown Click to send AlmostGrown an Instant MessageVisit AlmostGrown's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View AlmostGrown's Have/Want ListView AlmostGrown's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by yakusoku:
Apparently, at GP Indy, a player - Gerald Freas (aka dr8sides on Twitter) - managed to harass several players via Twitter.

He'd take pictures and post rude comments about players. He was suspended for 18 months.

Allegedly, he had done this before and was asked to stop, but kept going at GP Indy, so Wizards stepped in, and Helene Bergeot put out a statement to make it clear that they do NOT condone this kind of action and people will be punished accordingly.


FREE GERRY!!! (I know him IRL hahaha)

While I admit that some weren't in great taste, almost all of them were funny. Its also interesting to note that they responded to this much faster than they respond to accusations of cheating WITH proof.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by AlmostGrown on March 24, 2012]

 
choco man
Member
posted March 24, 2012 06:15 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for choco man Click Here to Email choco man Send a private message to choco man Click to send choco man an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View choco man's Have/Want ListView choco man's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by AlmostGrown:
FREE GERRY!!! (I know him IRL hahaha)

While I admit that some weren't in great taste, almost all of them were funny. Its also interesting to note that they responded to this much faster than they respond to accusations of cheating WITH proof.


I'm sure the reason why they reacted faster is because this kind of stuff is easier to prove than cheating (the guy posted it on his twitter feed).

I'm sure the DCI takes cheating seriously.

 
Speed Demon
Banned
posted March 24, 2012 06:29 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Speed Demon Click Here to Email Speed Demon Send a private message to Speed Demon Click to send Speed Demon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Getting 18 months for that is just ridiculous.
 
AlmostGrown
Member
posted March 24, 2012 07:40 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for AlmostGrown Click Here to Email AlmostGrown Send a private message to AlmostGrown Click to send AlmostGrown an Instant MessageVisit AlmostGrown's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View AlmostGrown's Have/Want ListView AlmostGrown's Have/Want List
If he was suspended for posting those images, then shouldn't those who retweeted the same images also be suspended? IE Owen Turtenwald, myself, and others?
 
DerangedHermit
Member
posted March 24, 2012 07:43 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for DerangedHermit Click Here to Email DerangedHermit Send a private message to DerangedHermit Click to send DerangedHermit an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View DerangedHermit's Trade Auction or SaleView DerangedHermit's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by Speed Demon:
Getting 18 months for that is just ridiculous.

The same as Alex Bertoncini, and six times as long as Edgar Flores.

I don't care if he's a dick, that's still overkill.

 
gaeacradle
Member
posted March 24, 2012 08:21 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for gaeacradle Click Here to Email gaeacradle Send a private message to gaeacradle Click to send gaeacradle an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View gaeacradle's Have/Want ListView gaeacradle's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by DerangedHermit:
The same as Alex Bertoncini, and six times as long as Edgar Flores.

I don't care if he's a dick, that's still overkill.


If he has been warned not to do it before, and he still did it at GP Indy, then it's his fault. This also may be the first instance of the DCI suspending someone for aggressive online behavior, so they need to make the punishment harsh enough to deter future offenders.

 
Volcanon
Member
posted March 24, 2012 09:19 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Volcanon Click Here to Email Volcanon Send a private message to Volcanon Click to send Volcanon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by DerangedHermit:
The same as Alex Bertoncini, and six times as long as Edgar Flores.

I don't care if he's a dick, that's still overkill.


What's worse for losing sales? Some idiot harassing many people or some "pro" player who you'll never play against cheating?

 
Speed Demon
Banned
posted March 24, 2012 02:21 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Speed Demon Click Here to Email Speed Demon Send a private message to Speed Demon Click to send Speed Demon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Volcanon:
What's worse for losing sales? Some idiot harassing many people or some "pro" player who you'll never play against cheating?

1. The problem is, he isn't outright harassing anyone.
2. He isn't threatening anyone.
3. IMO, This is over stepping WotC jurisdiction
4. I have heard worse at local FNMs to people's faces and they don't get a ban (or even a warning).
5. Bertonicini indirectly harmed way more people.
6. Bertonicini directly harmed way more people.
7. Bertonicini stole from people.

Congratulations. You're a speech nazi.

 
gaeacradle
Member
posted March 24, 2012 02:28 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for gaeacradle Click Here to Email gaeacradle Send a private message to gaeacradle Click to send gaeacradle an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View gaeacradle's Have/Want ListView gaeacradle's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Speed Demon:
4. I have heard worse at local FNMs to people's faces and they don't get a ban (or even a warning).

While I agreed with you on other points, there is a clear difference between what is said vocally and what is being posted publicly on Twitter. The former can be a case of "he said, she said" if the judge is not there, but the latter one is easily seen by everyone.

 
Speed Demon
Banned
posted March 24, 2012 02:39 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Speed Demon Click Here to Email Speed Demon Send a private message to Speed Demon Click to send Speed Demon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by gaeacradle:
While I agreed with you on other points, there is a clear difference between what is said vocally and what is being posted publicly on Twitter. The former can be a case of "he said, she said" if the judge is not there, but the latter one is easily seen by everyone.

I'm sorry, but this is still wrong to do.

Also, an 18 month ban for this? This would be the equivelent of an NFL player getting an 24 game suspension tweeting "NFL Players are barbarians".

Do you think that would happen? No chance. At worst, this player gets a $10-100,000 fine, and MAYBE 1 game suspension.

The rampant cheating that goes on in the magic community (especially at the top levels (and top ptq levels)) is disgusting and way more off putting to me than some idiot making an idiotic statement.

If we're going to talk about putting people off, then we should ban AJ Sacher for calling me an idiot and a giant troll and ban Brad Nelson for calling me a creep. But of course, that won't happen, and why should it. Pro players rarely get banned unless they do something atrocious.

If WotC is going to monitor and ban us based on what we post on twitter, what's to stop them from banning us what we post on public forums, facebook, and video streams. If WotC banned everyone for 18 months for saying something bad to a general group of people, then holy jesus the ban list will get quite long (you should see the comments left by people on facebook about the looks of SCG people).

If I said MTGO is a pile of **** for a program (which it is and has been for the last 8 years since the release, you guys have been getting raped by it), do you think it's justified that I get banned for a year and a half (or more) for my comment? What's worse, a general statement about magic players, or slamming a company for producing a D- product?

Face it, WotC justification for this ban is non-existent.

[Edited 4 times, lastly by Speed Demon on March 24, 2012]

 
TimeBeing
Member
posted March 24, 2012 02:56 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for TimeBeing Click Here to Email TimeBeing Send a private message to TimeBeing Click to send TimeBeing an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Speed Demon:

Face it, WotC justification for this ban is non-existent.


that don't need one. If you don't like how they sanction play don't play. If you've seen worse point it out to wizard. Make stink about it something may happen.

This was happening at GP Indy, A big magic stage so they made a big point about it. They have every right to do that. He got warned. He didn't listen, He got nailed, boohoo

If you see cheating everywhere tell someone, become a judge, do something about it. Last time the Internet got up in arms about a cheater he got suspended. Can happen again if needed.

 
Speed Demon
Banned
posted March 24, 2012 03:08 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Speed Demon Click Here to Email Speed Demon Send a private message to Speed Demon Click to send Speed Demon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TimeBeing:
that don't need one. If you don't like how they sanction play don't play. If you've seen worse point it out to wizard. Make stink about it something may happen.

This was happening at GP Indy, A big magic stage so they made a big point about it. They have every right to do that. He got warned. He didn't listen, He got nailed, boohoo

If you see cheating everywhere tell someone, become a judge, do something about it. Last time the Internet got up in arms about a cheater he got suspended. Can happen again if needed.


Except the last time THE INTERNET had to get all up in arms because the cheater had not been banned after the DCI had VIDEO EVIDENCE for 3 months. If drew levin never published that article, it is ENTIRELY POSSIBLE that Alex bertonici would still be playing magic today.

It is amazing that once the internet had solid proof (i.e. video evidence), it only took the DCI to ban this guy within a week but they couldn't have done it within the 3 months they had the video evidence?

Face it, this is just the nanny-state of WOTC acting up. I am pretty sure I could get away with rampant cheating (not that I would) and get less time than this guy.

They aren't sanctioning anything. They are just censoring your speech.

 
Zakman86
Member
posted March 24, 2012 03:16 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Zakman86 Click Here to Email Zakman86 Send a private message to Zakman86 Click to send Zakman86 an Instant MessageVisit Zakman86's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Zakman86's Have/Want ListView Zakman86's Have/Want List
I can't believe that anyone's actually defending this guy...

Edit: Wait, just saw who was posting. Makes MUCH more sense now.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Zakman86 on March 24, 2012]

 
Speed Demon
Banned
posted March 24, 2012 03:19 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Speed Demon Click Here to Email Speed Demon Send a private message to Speed Demon Click to send Speed Demon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zakman86:
I can't believe that anyone's actually defending this guy...

Edit: Wait, just saw who was posting. Makes MUCH more sense now.


Yeah, A person with logic and reason. I am sorry you were not taught those things in school.

 
Bagbokk
Member
posted March 24, 2012 03:32 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Bagbokk Click Here to Email Bagbokk Send a private message to Bagbokk Click to send Bagbokk an Instant MessageVisit Bagbokk's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Cheating is something that they actually need to investigate because punishing someone suspected of cheating if they can't independently corroborate the accusations would be a bad move. This situation is much easier to prove.

Whether he deserved a 18-month suspension, *shrug*. I believe that he does especially if he has been told in the past to cut it out. It certainly doesn't defy "logic and reason" to believe that he deserves some sort of punishment for his actions. On the other hand, it's fairly illogical and unreasonable to believe that your opinion is the only one that matters and is absolutely correct when there are clearly other reasonable people that disagree with you.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by Bagbokk on March 24, 2012]

 
Zakman86
Member
posted March 24, 2012 03:36 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Zakman86 Click Here to Email Zakman86 Send a private message to Zakman86 Click to send Zakman86 an Instant MessageVisit Zakman86's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Zakman86's Have/Want ListView Zakman86's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Bagbokk:
Cheating is something that they actually need to investigate because punishing someone suspected of cheating if they can't independently corroborate the accusations would be a bad move. This situation is much easier to prove.

Whether he deserved a 18-month suspension, *shrug*. I believe that he does especially if he has been told in the past to cut it out. It certainly doesn't defy "logic and reason" to believe that he deserves some sort of punishment for his actions. On the other hand, it's fairly illogical and unreasonable to believe that your opinion is the only one that matters and is absolutely correct when there are clearly other reasonable people that disagree with you.


Getting nailed to the wall as an example of behavior that won't be tolerated is always a good decision, in my books. I don't want those kinds of players at my events; quite frankly, most decent human beings don't either.

 
Speed Demon
Banned
posted March 24, 2012 03:40 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Speed Demon Click Here to Email Speed Demon Send a private message to Speed Demon Click to send Speed Demon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bagbokk:
Cheating is something that they actually need to investigate because punishing someone suspected of cheating if they can't independently corroborate the accusations would be a bad move. This situation is much easier to prove.

Whether he deserved a 18-month suspension, *shrug*. I believe that he does especially if he has been told in the past to cut it out. It certainly doesn't defy "logic and reason" to believe that he deserves some sort of punishment for his actions. On the other hand, it's fairly illogical and unreasonable to believe that your opinion is the only one that matters and is absolutely correct when there are clearly other reasonable people that disagree with you.


Okay, I am sorry if I didn't come across clearly. Obviously, as a person who does not work for DCI/WotC I don't have all the fact to the case (besides reading wotc told him to knock it off). I have no problem with SOME punishment, I do have a problem with the punishment he got. 1-3 month ban would be "okay" depending on how long this was going on. However, rampant cheating and scumbaggery gets 0 time unless they actively catch you.

Again, Punish, fine. 18 months? No.

 
Speed Demon
Banned
posted March 24, 2012 03:44 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Speed Demon Click Here to Email Speed Demon Send a private message to Speed Demon Click to send Speed Demon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zakman86:
Getting nailed to the wall as an example of behavior that won't be tolerated is always a good decision, in my books. I don't want those kinds of players at my events; quite frankly, most decent human beings don't either.

If wotc started banning the people who make harmful comments like these, wotc would need to ban 900,000 players.

 
WeedIan
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posted March 24, 2012 05:25 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for WeedIan Click Here to Email WeedIan Send a private message to WeedIan Click to send WeedIan an Instant MessageVisit WeedIan's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View WeedIan's Have/Want ListView WeedIan's Have/Want List
Speed Demon doesn't get it.

This is the like the Cop giving you a warning for speeding and then you go ok and then speed away. He had his warning he didn't take it seriously so they used him as an example.

I've been to magic before where people have been asked to leave stores because they are verbally harassing players.

 
Speed Demon
Banned
posted March 24, 2012 05:32 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Speed Demon Click Here to Email Speed Demon Send a private message to Speed Demon Click to send Speed Demon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by WeedIan:
Speed Demon doesn't get it.

This is the like the Cop giving you a warning for speeding and then you go ok and then speed away. He had his warning he didn't take it seriously so they used him as an example.

I've been to magic before where people have been asked to leave stores because they are verbally harassing players.


Except this is the equivalent of throwing the guy in jail for a year in a half.

Please show me someone who gets 1.5 years in jail for speeding twice.

Also, this guy wasn't verbally harassing anyone. He was making a general statement and quite possibly, a joke!

 
gaeacradle
Member
posted March 24, 2012 05:36 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for gaeacradle Click Here to Email gaeacradle Send a private message to gaeacradle Click to send gaeacradle an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View gaeacradle's Have/Want ListView gaeacradle's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Speed Demon:
Okay, I am sorry if I didn't come across clearly. Obviously, as a person who does not work for DCI/WotC I don't have all the fact to the case (besides reading wotc told him to knock it off). I have no problem with SOME punishment, I do have a problem with the punishment he got. 1-3 month ban would be "okay" depending on how long this was going on. However, rampant cheating and scumbaggery gets 0 time unless they actively catch you.

Again, Punish, fine. 18 months? No.


I agree with you that 18 months is a little bit harsh, but I also agree with WOTC. Again, they want to set an example to deter future offenders. It is IMPORTANT enough for them to make an announcement on DailyMTG. Does it suck to be banned 18 months for something like this? Yes, it does. But that's what happened when you are being made as a clear example.

If you want some other example, look at the the NFL suspending Sean Payton for 1 year and the Saints' GM for 6 months. Unprecedented. Harsh.

 
Bagbokk
Member
posted March 24, 2012 05:50 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Bagbokk Click Here to Email Bagbokk Send a private message to Bagbokk Click to send Bagbokk an Instant MessageVisit Bagbokk's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
I have no problem with SOME punishment, I do have a problem with the punishment he got. 1-3 month ban would be "okay" depending on how long this was going on.

We could just agree to disagree on this, but the analogies are starting to get a little over the top. How is 18-month suspension equivalent to being thrown in jail? It's not like he suddenly can't play Magic at all or continue to buy/sell/trade stuff or playtest for when he's off suspension, etc. I'm pretty sure WeedIan was referring generally more to the point that if you ignore a warning and do the exact same thing you were just warned about, the punishment is going to be harsher than it would have been otherwise. And yes, there are such rules pretty much everywhere, including our criminal justice system in terms of throwing repeat offenders into jail for life if they screw up enough (three) times.

Point is, if he was asked to stop by WOTC and he didn't, he probably does deserve more than just a 1-3 month suspension. You don't just blatantly ignore a warning and expect to only get a slap on the wrist, no matter what the underlying offense might have been.

[Edited 3 times, lastly by Bagbokk on March 24, 2012]

 
Zakman86
Member
posted March 25, 2012 03:22 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Zakman86 Click Here to Email Zakman86 Send a private message to Zakman86 Click to send Zakman86 an Instant MessageVisit Zakman86's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Zakman86's Have/Want ListView Zakman86's Have/Want List
Yep, I'm on a Beta All the Duals kick.
 
Thanos
Member
posted March 25, 2012 04:16 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Thanos Click Here to Email Thanos Send a private message to Thanos Click to send Thanos an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zakman86:
Yep, I'm on a Beta All the Duals kick.

How far along are ya?

I went on the have at least 1 Dual Beta and the rest FBB kick awhile back.

Thankfully I started it before the big dual jump.

I'm 2 FBB Scrublands and 2 FBB Bayous away from finishing it.

(And have almost all of them signed, but I know you could care less about that )

 

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