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Originally posted by Lord Crovax:
So what happens to Boros Reckoner when dealers are buying in at 10.00????

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a control deck shows up, nobody buys @ retail of 15+, and dealers are out a bunch of money on a 3/3 for 3.

__________________
"He fights you not because you have wronged him, but because you are there."

[16:17] <@BrassMan> what do you need new tech for?
[16:18] <@BrassMan> gush is unrestricted

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Originally posted by thror:
a control deck shows up, nobody buys @ retail of 15+, and dealers are out a bunch of money on a 3/3 for 3.

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Guess we get to see that happen then, cause I'm seeing some dealers buying in at 10.00 :P

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Originally posted by choco man:
I haven't played/kept up with MTG since SCG Dallas in Nov 2012 and could build the R/G for ~$30-40. So my statement definitely assumes someone doesn't have to buy&build a deck from scratch.

Every single card in that deck has been super super cheap at one time or the other. Most people got Hellriders/Crags when they were super cheap. And now is good time to buy Stromkirks and Ash Zealots.

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Originally posted by daner:
No...Boros is just a trap. If you don't hit battalion your creatures are just awful.

Boros sucks dude. I'll say it again...Boros is a trap. If you have half a brain and choose to block early and often you will win the late game Orzhov vs. Boros.

Boros relies on swarm effects. Just be willing to always make that early trade in the games you play against them. Syndic of Tithes is a great card...but I can't wait to throw it under the 3/2 Halberdier bus vs. Boros for the trade.

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Then you're playing against awful, awful players. If you're playing Boros then you don't swing in without Battalion (unless you've cleared the way with Mugging or Court Street Denizen). If your opponent is swinging his Halberdiers blindly into a Syndic then he's a bad player.

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Originally posted by daner:
Bill Postlethwait just took down the SCG Edison Open with 0, that's right, ZERO cards from GTC in his 75 card list. Good to know WOTC really knew how to shake up an already stale meta! .....pffffftttttttttttttttttttttttt

Dear god Gatecrash is the worst.

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Yes, because the winner of one tournament completely defines the impact of a set on a format.

2nd place had 10 new cards, 3rd had 21, 4th had 10, 5th had 17, 6th had 14, 7th had 26, and 8th had 16.

114 Gatecrash cards among the other 7 players. Or more fun with math 114 out of a possible 600 Maindeck and Sideboard cards in the Top 8. 19% of the cards were from a set that's just over a week old.

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Originally posted by daner:
Oh no, I agree. They deck is super cheap to build and even if you don't own the cards the most expensive thing is what? $8-10?

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Can we file this away to bring up again the next time someone starts bitching about how prohibitively expensive standard is? "Every top tier deck has playsets of 20+ dollar cards" seems to consistently be a centerpiece of the argument (along with rose-tinted glasses about how cheap one specific deck was at one specific point in the distant past).

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Originally posted by Bugger:
Can we file this away to bring up again the next time someone starts bitching about how prohibitively expensive standard is? "Every top tier deck has playsets of 20+ dollar cards" seems to consistently be a centerpiece of the argument (along with rose-tinted glasses about how cheap one specific deck was at one specific point in the distant past).

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Originally posted by rockondon:
It sounds like people are saying that the best cards also happen to be expensive cards, like that's a big coincidence or something.

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Funny how that works, eh? People want to play with the best cards, so everyone wants them, so demand spikes.

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Originally posted by Bugger:
Funny how that works, eh? People want to play with the best cards, so everyone wants them, so demand spikes.

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Originally posted by CubFan81:
Then you're playing against awful, awful players. If you're playing Boros then you don't swing in without Battalion (unless you've cleared the way with Mugging or Court Street Denizen). If your opponent is swinging his Halberdiers blindly into a Syndic then he's a bad player.

Yes, because the winner of one tournament completely defines the impact of a set on a format.

2nd place had 10 new cards, 3rd had 21, 4th had 10, 5th had 17, 6th had 14, 7th had 26, and 8th had 16.

114 Gatecrash cards among the other 7 players. Or more fun with math 114 out of a possible 600 Maindeck and Sideboard cards in the Top 8. 19% of the cards were from a set that's just over a week old.

But you're right, no impact at all.

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Or your playing against a opponent that knows what he's doing. Trick is, Boros can't sit around and wait to win a game. If that Syndic sits out there on the board it's going to do a lot more damage than the Halberdiers over time. Boros has to be able to rush the opponent, apply pressure early, and keep them on the back foot. Otherwise you die to Extort or even with batallion your guys run into green fatties. The only thing that's usually not a problem is Dimir bc it's just so slow.

After this I'll be done arguing for Orzhov....but all I would like to do is point out you suggest that you wait around for battalion, or a removal spell, or denizen plus another creature....so what your saying is not to attack with an attacking deck right? Sound advice.

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Originally posted by MagicPatty:
So I just sent 20 Serum Visions to ABU games for a good buy price. I listed them at NM/M expecting a few to be downgraded, as 3 or 4 may have had a white dot or two on the border. The rest were great though. Turns out the downgraded ALL TWENTY of them! What a joke... lesson learned.

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I could have told you that. ABU has gotten super strict, basically anything NM- or worse is Played to them. Even seen pack fresh stuff get put as Played before.

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Originally posted by MagicPatty:
So I just sent 20 Serum Visions to ABU games for a good buy price. I listed them at NM/M expecting a few to be downgraded, as 3 or 4 may have had a white dot or two on the border. The rest were great though. Turns out the downgraded ALL TWENTY of them! What a joke... lesson learned.

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That sucks, and I'm not saying they didn't screw you over, but I've sent to them several times without any problems.

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Originally posted by rats60:
That's because WOTC decided to print standard staples at mythic rarity so people would have to buy twice as much product.

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which staples are you talking about? lands/creatures/removal/charms? the 2nd place deck from the last standard scg event had 6 maindeck mythics, 4 revelations and 2 walkers. the 3rd place deck had zero. the 4th place deck had 3. 5th - 2. 6th - 0. 7th - 0. 8th - 1. 12 mythcis over SEVEN decks.

sure, the jund deck has 14, but quite obviously that is NOT a requirement to have a competitive deck.

__________________
"He fights you not because you have wronged him, but because you are there."

[16:17] <@BrassMan> what do you need new tech for?
[16:18] <@BrassMan> gush is unrestricted

quote:

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Originally posted by thror:
which staples are you talking about? lands/creatures/removal/charms? the 2nd place deck from the last standard scg event had 6 maindeck mythics, 4 revelations and 2 walkers. the 3rd place deck had zero. the 4th place deck had 3. 5th - 2. 6th - 0. 7th - 0. 8th - 1. 12 mythcis over SEVEN decks.

sure, the jund deck has 14, but quite obviously that is NOT a requirement to have a competitive deck.

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Originally posted by daner:
Now...take a closer look at how many of those were lands or SB cards. Got a number math wiz?

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Originally posted by CubFan81:
Oh, I'm sorry, but you mentioned that he took down the SCG Open with no GTC in his 75. So we can count the cards in the winner's sideboard but not in the other 7 players? And why are we discounting the lands? Are they not from GTC? Doesn't Godless Shrine/Watery Grave make that 2nd place Esper deck more viable? Stomping Grounds/Sacred Foundry make the Naya decks. Especially the ones running Flinthoof Boar.

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Oh no...we can count the other sb's. Hell, you can even count the lands if you really want to. I have all the numbers written down, I'll share later when I get home from work. If you still think gtc played a significant role afterwards then so be it. I'll obviously argue that it did minimal for the format. The no show of cards in the winning deck kinda makes my point. How often does a deck just shrug off a new set in standard completely and take down a big tourny? Not even $7 lands which are easy to aquire went into the deck....but you say the new duals made other decks more viable?

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Originally posted by Mr.C:
How much? I was thinking of buying one too.

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The only place in the states that has one that I can find is Starcity, at $125ea. MKM has them for 110-120 euros which is like $150 USD. If anyone can find some for sale for $90-100 and has them in stock, i'd be happy to send you some magic cards as a finder's fee.

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Originally posted by thror:
which staples are you talking about? lands/creatures/removal/charms? the 2nd place deck from the last standard scg event had 6 maindeck mythics, 4 revelations and 2 walkers. the 3rd place deck had zero. the 4th place deck had 3. 5th - 2. 6th - 0. 7th - 0. 8th - 1. 12 mythcis over SEVEN decks.

sure, the jund deck has 14, but quite obviously that is NOT a requirement to have a competitive deck.

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Originally posted by mcelraca:
stuff

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I understand.

I read all the time that people think FNM is for "learning the game" is "less competitive" etc. BS

Of course it all depends on where you play.

GoodStuff.dec > Random****Deck.dec

There's always the percentage of people who think they will win the next PTQ at any FNM, from a city of 20k to 8M (lived an played in both) and they will always be at your FNM.

Advice, if you like to play to win more than lose but still have fun, play for 2nd. Beat everything in your path and when you face them, lose as expected. Let them have their hay day. Then you go home, sleep with your beautiful wife, kiss your beautiful kids* and tweak your deck for next time. Let them come in 288 of 302 in the next PTQ.

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Originally posted by AlmostGrown:

@daner: the lands are arguably the most important part of some of those decks, specifically Naya, Jund, and Esper.

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I agree that the lands are some of the most important parts of the decks, but the winning deck(which could easily use Stomping Ground) did not and the mana was still fine.

Here is the overall breakdown.....

36 lands were used

from top to bottom.....(= sb)

1. 15x Boros Reckoner(3)
2. 13x Boros Charm (5)
2. 10x Skullcrack (10)
4. 8x Burning Tree Emmisary
5. 6x Blind Obedience (3)
6. 4x Ghor-Clan Rampager
6. 4x Boros Elite
8. 3x Obzedat, Ghost Council
8. 3x Experiment One
10. 2x Devour Flesh
10. 2x Domri Rade
10. 2x Frontline Medic

So you have 12 different cards, minus the lands, that showed up in decks. One of those cards had every copy show up in the SB(Skullcrack). Total 57 cards from the "new" cards from GTC were lands or SB material.

Nothing on that list really jumps out as a suprise, when the entire set was spoiled most people pegged these same cards as ones that could find their way into a deck. The only one that could be considered a little suprising was Devour Flesh...but usually instant speed edicts for 2 cmc are good in Magic.

Reckoner replaces Pyreheart Wolf, BTE replaces Shred Freak?, Elite and Ex1 replace Stromkirk Noble in Naya Humans bc well, they are humans.

There isn't any "new" decks....the established decks just found a new option or two. Nothing got re-worked, no new tech really. The meta is basically still the same decks played before as it is now with the exception of Saito's deck. Esper, Naya, Jund....all the same faces. The only thing missing was U/W/R Flash which seems like it didn't benefit at all.

It looks pretty much like an unchanged meta except that some mana bases are better....but like I said the winning deck didn't even opt for Stomping Grounds.

The week before Human Reanimator won...but again, Reanimator was a deck well before GTC.

I'll stand by my stance that GTC really didn't change much in an already stale standard format. The only thing GTC brings, as mentioned above by Volcannon, is a fun new limited format....but unlike RTR, I'll say the honeymoon will be over quickly with this set. Also, outside of standard, nothing new jumps out for Modern/Legacy...which RTR gave us a good amount.

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Originally posted by daner:
I agree that the lands are some of the most important parts of the decks, but the winning deck(which could easily use Stomping Ground) did not and the mana was still fine.

Here is the overall breakdown.....

36 lands were used

from top to bottom.....(= sb)

1. 15x Boros Reckoner(3)
2. 13x Boros Charm (5)
2. 10x Skullcrack (10)
4. 8x Burning Tree Emmisary
5. 6x Blind Obedience (3)
6. 4x Ghor-Clan Rampager
6. 4x Boros Elite
8. 3x Obzedat, Ghost Council
8. 3x Experiment One
10. 2x Devour Flesh
10. 2x Domri Rade
10. 2x Frontline Medic

So you have 12 different cards, minus the lands, that showed up in decks. One of those cards had every copy show up in the SB(Skullcrack). Total 57 cards from the "new" cards from GTC were lands or SB material.

Nothing on that list really jumps out as a suprise, when the entire set was spoiled most people pegged these same cards as ones that could find their way into a deck. The only one that could be considered a little suprising was Devour Flesh...but usually instant speed edicts for 2 cmc are good in Magic.

Reckoner replaces Pyreheart Wolf, BTE replaces Shred Freak?, Elite and Ex1 replace Stromkirk Noble in Naya Humans bc well, they are humans.

There isn't any "new" decks....the established decks just found a new option or two. Nothing got re-worked, no new tech really. The meta is basically still the same decks played before as it is now with the exception of Saito's deck. Esper, Naya, Jund....all the same faces. The only thing missing was U/W/R Flash which seems like it didn't benefit at all.

It looks pretty much like an unchanged meta except that some mana bases are better....but like I said the winning deck didn't even opt for Stomping Grounds.

The week before Human Reanimator won...but again, Reanimator was a deck well before GTC.

I'll stand by my stance that GTC really didn't change much in an already stale standard format. The only thing GTC brings, as mentioned above by Volcannon, is a fun new limited format....but unlike RTR, I'll say the honeymoon will be over quickly with this set. Also, outside of standard, nothing new jumps out for Modern/Legacy...which RTR gave us a good amount.

EDIT: I will say this, the OTHER tourny...SCG Classic in Memphis...had easily the most fun deck to play I've seen in a long long time. James Ashe's Unexpected Results is a ****ing masterpiece. Probably not a real top teir tourny winner....but it looks like my new 1st option @ FNM's.

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