My Sealed Pool

White:
Ajani's Mantra
Ajani's Pridemate
Cloud Crusader x2
Goldenglow Moth x2
Holy Strength
Infantry Veteran
Palace Guard
Silvercoat Lion x2
Wild Griffin x2
Vengeful Archon

Blue:
AEther Adept
Alluring Siren
Armored Cancrix
Ice Cage
Jace's Ingenuity
Negate
Phantom Beast
Preordain
Sleep
Unsummon

Black:
Assassinate
Black Knight
Bog Raiders
Disentomb x2
Doom Blade
Duress
Gravedigger x2
Mind Rot
Phylactery Lich
Relentless Rats
Rotting Legion x2
Royal Assassin
Sign in Blood
Unholy Strength
Viscera Seer

Red:
Act of Treason
Ancient Hellkite
Bloodcrazed Goblin
Canyon Minotaur
Fiery Hellhound
Fling x2
Goblin Piker
Goblin Tunneler
Incite
Lightning Bolt
Pyretic Ritual
Shiv's Embrace x2
Thunderstrike x2
Vulshok Berserker

Green:
Acidic Slime
Brindleboar x2
Cudgel Troll
Fog
Giant Growth
Giant Spider
Hornet Sting
Llanowar Elves x2
Prized Unicorn
Runeclaw Bear
Spined Wurm
Wall of Vines x2

Artifact:
Angel's Feather
Brittle Effigy
Demon's Horn
Dragon's Claw
Elixir of Immortality
Ornithopter x2
Steel Overseer
Voltaic Key
Warlord's Axe

What would you all have built?

Steel Overseer
Ancient Hellkite
Vulshok Berserker
Canyon Minotaur
Fiery Hellhound
Viscera Seer
Rotting Legion x2
Royal Assassin
Gravedigger x2
Black Knight

Mana is probably 9-9

quote:

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Originally posted by stu55:
Brittle Effigy
Lightning Bolt
Shiv's Embrace x2
Act of Treason
Fling
Doom Blade
Assassinate
Mind Rot
Sign in Blood

Steel Overseer
Ancient Hellkite
Vulshok Berserker
Canyon Minotaur
Fiery Hellhound
Viscera Seer
Rotting Legion x2
Royal Assassin
Gravedigger x2
Black Knight

Mana is probably 9-9

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Brittle Effigy
Ornithopter x2
Steel Overseer
Warlord's Axe

Viscera Seer
Black Knight
Sign in Blood
Doom Blade
Phylactery Lich
Royal Assassin
Assassinate
Gravedigger x2

9 Swamps
8 Forests

quote:

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Originally posted by -PoX-:
True, apart from Ice Cage, Blinding Mage, White Knight, Cancel,Pacifism, Condemn, Stormtide Leviathan,Mind Control,Brittle Effigy, Quag Sickness, Mana Leak, , Frost Titan, Necrotic Plague, Platinum Angel, Celestial Purge and to a lesser extend, Excommunicate,Reassembling Skeleton, Cudgel Troll, Phylactery Lich, Sleep, Wall of frost, Act of Treason, Mystifying Maze, Unsummon and Aether Adept there would be no way to deal with Grave Titan.
Unless they tap out in which case fireball, day of judgment, assassinate, Chandra and Corrupt also work.

But yes apart from that, it would be way too strong, as opposed to right now where it's quite a fair card to drop in limited.

And the "too strong" argument isn't a design related one anyway which brings us back to my point: design is pretty irrelevant when compared to proper balancing that is achieved through play testing.

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Stopped reading after you said white knight.

__________________
40 Eye of Ugin and 4 foil Eye of Ugin for Black Lotus!?

quote:

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Originally posted by -PoX-:
-misleading and weak list-

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Here are the following cards from your list that do not count as removal by even the loosest definition of the word:
- White Knight
- Platinum Angel
- Reassembling Skeleton
- Cudgel Troll
- Phylactery Lich
- Sleep
- Wall of Frost
- Act of Treason

Here are the cards on your list that are rare or mythic:
- Stormtide Leviathan
- Brittle Effigy
- Frost Titan
- Necrotic Plague
- Platinum Angel
- Celestial Purge
- Phylactery Lich
- Mystifying Maze

Really this should be your list, being generous about what constitutes reasonable removal (and including stuff that doesn't provide a permanent solution, or is highly situational):
Blinding Mage, Cancel, Pacifism, Condemn, Mind Control, Quag Sickness, Mana Leak, unsummon, aether adept, and Excommunicate.

Gee, that's 10 cards out of 250. And even better, one of them requires a heavy commitment to black, two require you to have the card to deal with it before they cast the titan, and three only stop it for a turn (leaving the tokens). Yeah, you've really made a strong case here.

quote:

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But yes apart from that, it would be way too strong, as opposed to right now where it's quite a fair card to drop in limited.

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Good point... except nobody said anything about it being a fair card with deathtouch.

quote:

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And the "too strong" argument isn't a design related one anyway which brings us back to my point: design is pretty irrelevant when compared to proper balancing that is achieved through play testing.

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Except that it actually is (design-related) because design is about creating the card and development is about fine-tuning it from there, and except that it actually isn't (irrelevant when compared to playtesting), because the whole point of playtesting is to try to smooth the rough edges of the cards created by design so that the designer's creations see play as close to their intended purposes as possible.

For someone who claims to read Making Magic weekly, you've got a pretty badly skewed perception of what constitutes design vs development.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bugger:

Except that it actually is (design-related) because design is about creating the card and development is about fine-tuning it from there

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Power level issues aren't related to card design.

Deciding if an ability is too strong for limited isn't part of design's job.

In fact here's the story of grave titan: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/101

The gave him the ability last minute based on the art. Yeah brilliant design skills there. He clearly states that the "deathtouch" came about because they wanted a keyword ability that didn't make him too good.
It's got just about nothing to do with design and that was my original point.

Which I will repeat now: it doesn't take a genius to design a good card and it's not even important to have a well-designed card anyway since there's no actual standards by which to judge that other than the ones Mark made up.
If anything, it would be "Is the card fun to play, easy to understand and fair?" none of which are design issues.

Anyway if you don't believe me, go download http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/ and make cards yourself! Within about 10 minutes you'll probably come up with a bunch of awesome ideas. YAY.

Another fun thing to notice: when the spoiler season rolls around on MTGsalvation and the fake cards come storming in, notice how no one ever goes "This is fake due to its bad design"?
Isn't that weird? You'd think that a lone teenager with 0 magic designing experience making up fake cards in 10 minutes with a cheap editor wouldn't be able to achieve the high standards of Mark's 15 years of experience and his team of elite geniuses whom he weeded out from hundreds of lesser applicants.

quote:

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Originally posted by gaeacradle:
What did you end up building?

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Act of Treason
Lightning Bolt
Thunderstrike x2
Assassinate
Doom Blade
Sign in Blood
Brittle Effigy
Warlord's Axe

Ancient Hellkite
Canyon Minotaur
Fiery Hellhound
Goblin Piker
Goblin Tunneler
Vulshok Berserker
Relentless Rats
Rotting Legion x2
Royal Assassin
Black Knight
Bog Raiders
Gravedigger x2

9 Mountains
8 Swamp

Using one card like grave titan as a bench mark for how they do their job is kind of silly as well. Now if all the cards in a set were designed like that... that might be a different story.

quote:

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Originally posted by Malice327:
If any idiot could do it, then any idiot would. They'd be paying the design team minimum wage

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Right of course and if homeopathy worked and it wasn't just water in those bottles, people would know instantly and never buy the products. Haha man let's not even get into why certain people make certain salaries. Let's just say it's not all just down to offer and demand.

Anyway, So far, Mark's benchmark for who's an awesome designer is "everyone I've ever worked with". I can't remember that story of the guy who was put on a design team and failed miserably.

Where is that guy? Isn't it weird how, no matter who he picks, it always works out? Do you know a lot of other jobs like that, where everyone who gets hired does admirably?

Besides, why the hell would the design team ever admit that anyone can do their job??? Their livelihoods depend on them convincing other people that they're necessary.

quote:

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Originally posted by Liq:
Act of Treason
Lightning Bolt
Thunderstrike x2
Assassinate
Doom Blade
Sign in Blood
Brittle Effigy
Warlord's Axe

Ancient Hellkite
Canyon Minotaur
Fiery Hellhound
Goblin Piker
Goblin Tunneler
Vulshok Berserker
Relentless Rats
Rotting Legion x2
Royal Assassin
Black Knight
Bog Raiders
Gravedigger x2

9 Mountains
8 Swamp

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quote:

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Originally posted by -PoX-:
Right of course and if homeopathy worked and it wasn't just water in those bottles, people would know instantly and never buy the products. Haha man let's not even get into why certain people make certain salaries. Let's just say it's not all just down to offer and demand.

Anyway, So far, Mark's benchmark for who's an awesome designer is "everyone I've ever worked with". I can't remember that story of the guy who was put on a design team and failed miserably.

Where is that guy? Isn't it weird how, no matter who he picks, it always works out? Do you know a lot of other jobs like that, where everyone who gets hired does admirably?

Besides, why the hell would the design team ever admit that anyone can do their job??? Their livelihoods depend on them convincing other people that they're necessary.

The great designer search is a gimmick to entertain the magic community and to legitimize the job of "magic card designer".

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There is a certain element of PR that comes in. The company i worked for previously has 25,000 employees across different countries. They don't let anyone else know when they fire someone or for what reasons. I am sure if Mark Rosewater aired out his dirty laundry on who he doesn't like there, the list wouldn't be empty. The design team also isn't in charge.

quote:

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Originally posted by stu55:
Really? No Shiv's Embrace? That card is a stone bomb

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I really don't know what I was thinking when building the deck.

quote:

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Originally posted by -PoX-:
Another fun thing to notice: when the spoiler season rolls around on MTGsalvation and the fake cards come storming in, notice how no one ever goes "This is fake due to its bad design"?
Isn't that weird? You'd think that a lone teenager with 0 magic designing experience making up fake cards in 10 minutes with a cheap editor wouldn't be able to achieve the high standards of Mark's 15 years of experience and his team of elite geniuses whom he weeded out from hundreds of lesser applicants.
: D

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I'll concede to you that The Great Designer search is a big PR stunt, given the popularity of it the first time around. But that doesn't illegitamize the fact that it's offered what a lot of Magic players would love, and it's a lot of fun for people who try and succeed, and for the readers following along.

Also, there are different ways of design. Rosewater has admitted several times that they've changed the concept of a card based on its artwork. That's not bad design, it's just a different way of doing it. Not every card is designed the same way.

Yes the concept of "good designer" maybe a little abstract but it doesn't mean that nobody can be one, it just means that it can be interpreted in different ways.

__________________
Stages of Death: Anger, Denial, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance, Burial, Decay, Haunting, Revenge, Evil Laugh

quote:

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Originally posted by wayne:
Erm, since I'm the only guy who did not go BR, could one of you guys explain why you think it is the optimal build?

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For one thing, this card sucks to the max. Not only that, but I seem to have 3,741 of the damn things!

It seems every time I'd be sorting through some cards I come across about a hundred of them! So finally I just started making a stack of them and started giving them out as unasked-for toss-ins just to get rid of the damn things.

But... it never fails... even when I think I've weeded them all out, I go to sort and there's another 300 King Craps.

I want them burnt! ALL OF THEM!

/rant

quote:

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Originally posted by -PoX-:
Power level issues aren't related to card design.

Deciding if an ability is too strong for limited isn't part of design's job.

In fact here's the story of grave titan: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/101

The gave him the ability last minute based on the art. Yeah brilliant design skills there. He clearly states that the "deathtouch" came about because they wanted a keyword ability that didn't make him too good.
It's got just about nothing to do with design and that was my original point.

Which I will repeat now: it doesn't take a genius to design a good card and it's not even important to have a well-designed card anyway since there's no actual standards by which to judge that other than the ones Mark made up.
If anything, it would be "Is the card fun to play, easy to understand and fair?" none of which are design issues.

Anyway if you don't believe me, go download http://magicseteditor.sourceforge.net/ and make cards yourself! Within about 10 minutes you'll probably come up with a bunch of awesome ideas. YAY.

Another fun thing to notice: when the spoiler season rolls around on MTGsalvation and the fake cards come storming in, notice how no one ever goes "This is fake due to its bad design"?
Isn't that weird? You'd think that a lone teenager with 0 magic designing experience making up fake cards in 10 minutes with a cheap editor wouldn't be able to achieve the high standards of Mark's 15 years of experience and his team of elite geniuses whom he weeded out from hundreds of lesser applicants.

: D

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While it's true that nearly any idiot can design a half-way plausible card is the whole point of the design process to create the entire set? The reason the fakes get through on Salvation (aside from the fact that it's Salvation) is that that card is likely the 46 spoiled card of a 250 card set. There's no knowing what kind of cycles or new abilities or environment they want the set to have so that fake could be the first look at something new in the set.

Take for example the ridiculously designed "Golden Lotus" card from around M10 that used Sunpetal Grove's artwork and the Lotus Vale template. It showed up as one of the earliest "rumors" for M10. The crazies wanted to believe it but most of the logical people agreed it was obviously a fake. Now, if that was one of the last 10 cards to be spoiled and Dragonskull Summit and Glacial Fortress had already been spoiled I'd bet more people would have guessed fake right off the bat.

I knew I'd wasted all of my luck when I was bored Friday before FNM, so spent $20 to buy 5 packs to practice with, and pulled a Grave Titan, Frost Titan, foil Inferno Titan, Nantuko Shade, Leyline of Anticipation, Ancient Hellkite and uhh...some other rare.

My sealed pool at the GP had Drowned Catacomb, Time Reversal, Silence, Leyline of Vitality, Mass Polymorph and Temple Bell for rares. I had 1 Bolt, 1 Doom Blade, no counters, 1 Sleep, 2 Mighty Leap and...well, a bunch of crappy stuff. Not many fliers, little beef, a bit of disruption, but stalling for another turn or 2 doesn't help when I can't make much use of that time.

Round one, I knew I was sunk when the guy across from me sat down and flipped out a playmat with about a dozen Top-8 pins on it. We talked a bit later, and he'd been out of Magic for a few years, but used to be pretty good, and he'd been asked to do a tourney report for Starkington Post. He seemed impressed that after the first game, I pulled 2 cards out of my registered deck, slipped them into another pile of cards, and proceeded to play game 2 with a completely different deck. As it turns out, the RG pile I registered wasn't nearly as good as the UWB pile I played every second game, but at least I came close to winning most of the game 2 matchups, while game 1 was never even close. 0-3 drop was never really in question the whole day.

I had fun, and met a few people, and caught up with a few people I don't see all that often, and can now say that I have participated in an event with nearly 1400 others.

Only real disappointment for me was that they had Richard Garfield there signing, but the timing was such that if you were playing in the main event and didn't have 3 byes, there was virtually no chance of being able to meet him. Nderwife and I both got smashed pretty quickly in 2 games in round 2 and jumped right in line, and as slow as the line went, we were probably a good 20 to 30 minutes away from the front of the line when the next round (which was about 45 minutes after the end of round time) pairings went up.

__________________
There's no need to fear, UNDERDOG is here!

All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

Report rules violations.

quote:

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Originally posted by Malice327:

I am pretty sure a huge super successful corporation would cut costs where needed

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Magic's doing better than ever so they don't need to cut anyone's salaries.
And since you do need SOMEONE to design cards, might as well keep the guys who have been doing it for a long time.

I'm guessing if wizards starts to tank, it's people in marketing and Development who'll get their heads chopped off because those are the guys actually responsible for promoting and balancing magic.

quote:

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Originally posted by Battle_of_Twits:

I'll concede to you that The Great Designer search is a big PR stunt, given the popularity of it the first time around. But that doesn't illegitamize the fact that it's offered what a lot of Magic players would love, and it's a lot of fun for people who try and succeed, and for the readers following along.

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Hey I never said it wasn't fun or that no one wants the job, I'm just saying it's not a fair test.

quote:

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Originally posted by Battle_of_Twits:
Also, there are different ways of design.
[/B]

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None of them being wrong : D

quote:

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Originally posted by CubFan81:
is the whole point of the design process to create the entire set?

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Yep but that's not really what they test for during the search.

quote:

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Originally posted by CubFan81:
The reason the fakes get through on Salvation (aside from the fact that it's Salvation) is that that card is likely the 46 spoiled card of a 250 card set. [/B]

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It could be the 249th out of 250th and people would only be able to say it's fake based on information from the Orb of Insight, bad templating, reused artwork, excessive power level and so on.

The only way people could figure out maybe something is faked based on the design is if you make a card somewhat like:

WRR
Protection from zombies
Creature - Goblin Shade
flying, unblockable
0/4
If you control an artifact, +3/+0
If an opponent has discarded more than two cards this turn, sacrifice an enchantment.

I think you'd get people to start being skeptical even if everything else checked out But you'd really have to pile it on.

quote:

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Originally posted by CubFan81:
I'm curious to know what your design for the Black Titan would have been. The only constant being it has to use that art and have some keyword ability.[/B]

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That's kind of an unfair question since no matter what I say you can compare it to the current one and assume the current one is the "correct" design. Plus Grave Titan's art is pretty narrow as it's clearly a giant zombie with an endless supply of zombies dropping down 2 little zombies. It's not like the art on Blood Tithe or Leyline of the Void. Man those could be anything : D

But ok how about this;

4BB
6/6
Exile two creatures: Regenerate
Whenever (some other name ) enters the battlefield or attacks, put target creature card with power 2 or less from a graveyard onto the battlefield under your control.

or how bout:

4BB
6/6
Lifelink
Whenever (some other name ) enters the battlefield or attacks, two different target creatures get -2/-2 until end of turn.

or maybe a little twist:

I agree with 99% of what he's saying. people, have great ideas all the time. we all do.

quote:

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Originally posted by Myy:
so after 24 hrs I think I can post again....

What are GURU lands?

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http://www.magiclibrarities.net/50-rarities-guru-lands-english-cards-index.html

quote:

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Originally posted by caquaa:
http://www.magiclibrarities.net/50-rarities-guru-lands-english-cards-index.html

http://www.cubedrafting.com/forum/download/file.php?id=272

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