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Originally posted by nderdog:
Maybe I'm too paranoid from having to deal with so many BTA cases, but I would never dream of paying up-front to a member with zero refs, particularly since not providing an address makes it far too easy for returning rippers to avoid getting caught until it's too late. I really wish I could figure out a way to stop that particular loophole.

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Originally posted by Sovarius:
If I post on someone's list to buy cards, and they get back to me giving me their paypal, is that confirmation?

I posted, this seller got back to me, giving me their paypal and instructs me to pay by gift.
A few hours later, he gets back to me again and says one of the cards is sold now.

In a trade exchanging addresses is to seal the deal, so for a sale does email/paypal address count? I mean, he was clearly saying yes send the money over... A few hours late at night is not enough time to say 'oh well, eff him if he isn't fast enough, deal off'.

I feel pretty ripped off this person wasn't going to wait more than a few hours for money, that I can't imagine he is doing anything with at roughly 2 a.m.
I'm sure he will sell the rest of the cards but sad to say that definitely kills the rest of the deal for me.

Is this BTA-able?

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Based on what you've said, I believe that it would be a case of backing out, as it seems likely that the key points to a confirmed trade have all been met.

1. A deal was reached.
2. Sending order was established (I am assuming this from your story, but can't be sure)
3. The address for the person to send first to (PayPal address in this case) was received

quote:

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Originally posted by Pail42:
Use paypall, and don't pay gift. File fraud and get your money back if they don't send.

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Eh, I have better things to do with my time than worry about PayPal claims and hoping they didn't send me a stack of junk commons or damaged cards or some such stupidity when there are so many good reputable traders out there that I could deal with.

__________________
There's no need to fear, UNDERDOG is here!

All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

Report rules violations.

quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
Based on what you've said, I believe that it would be a case of backing out, as it seems likely that the key points to a confirmed trade have all been met.

1. A deal was reached.
2. Sending order was established (I am assuming this from your story, but can't be sure)
3. The address for the person to send first to (PayPal address in this case) was received

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Does it matter I had not given my address yet, or that sending order was implied ("buyer pays first" on sales thread, and has 3x refs than me) ?

__________________
Want Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief, and other vampire females oddities (foreign foil crimp miscut misprint sign testprint alters etc)

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Originally posted by chaos021:
If you haven't given him your address, then it's not a confirmed trade.

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If you and your trading partner are simul-sending, the exchange of addresses confirms the trade. Backing out of the trade after this is not allowed, and if one trader does so, the other may post them on the BTA as a bad trader. If one party is sending first, then the trade is confirmed once you have agreed on sending arrangements and when the trader who is receiving first sends their address.

'buyer pays first, here is my paypal address' == confirmed sale.

__________________
"He fights you not because you have wronged him, but because you are there."

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9. If you and your buying/selling partner are simul-sending, the exchange of addresses confirms the trade. Backing out of the deal after this is not allowed, and if one trader does so, the other may post them on the BTA as a bad trader. If one party is sending first, then the deal is confirmed when the other trader (the one receiving first) sends his/her address.

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In this case the person getting the paypal payment is receiving first. They gave you their address so the deal is confirmed. The wording is a bit different in the trade/auction rules than in the have/want rules but the same conclusion is reached either way.

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Originally posted by nderdog:
Eh, I have better things to do with my time than worry about PayPal claims and hoping they didn't send me a stack of junk commons or damaged cards or some such stupidity when there are so many good reputable traders out there that I could deal with.

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Originally posted by JoshSherman:
Buyer pays first. For some people, including me, no amount of refs will change that.

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Posted by several people:
zero ref stuff

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If you don't like somebody's rules, don't deal with them. Simple as that.

I can't speak for zero ref upstarts that think they're going to conquer MOTL with their 1337 tech because I'm not one, nor was I ever.

I've been selling online on and off for sixteen years. I don't care how many refs you have, if you post on my list to buy something of mine, you're paying first. While I don't necessarily like to be the "if you don't like it, though cookies" guy, there it is.

That said, I did offer to trade a Black Lotus for 40 Eye of Ugin once, provided the other guy sent first.

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Originally posted by thror:
'buyer pays first, here is my paypal address' == confirmed sale.

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gonna have to disagree on this one. I have people post on my list wanting cards, I email them the list of cards, totals, and my paypal info, then every now and then I'll never hear back. I just send out an email retracting my offer and I move on if I don't hear back. If they don't respond then I can't assume they've agreed to anything. By that same logic, if they have yet to respond and I need to make an alteration to my offer, that should be perfectly acceptable.

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Originally posted by thror:
If you and your trading partner are simul-sending, the exchange of addresses confirms the trade. Backing out of the trade after this is not allowed, and if one trader does so, the other may post them on the BTA as a bad trader. If one party is sending first, then the trade is confirmed once you have agreed on sending arrangements and when the trader who is receiving first sends their address.

'buyer pays first, here is my paypal address' == confirmed sale.

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Originally posted by caquaa:

gonna have to disagree on this one. I have people post on my list wanting cards, I email them the list of cards, totals, and my paypal info, then every now and then I'll never hear back. I just send out an email retracting my offer and I move on if I don't hear back. If they don't respond then I can't assume they've agreed to anything. By that same logic, if they have yet to respond and I need to make an alteration to my offer, that should be perfectly acceptable.

If that seller is considered to be backing out of the trade, I have a bunch of BTA from people not replying to emails after posting on my sales thread for you ;p

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I thought it doesn't work until they send you an address. I specifically have a line in my email trade form for this specific reason because, in the past, I've had plenty of people just leave me hanging when I sent my paypal info as a seller. So are you telling me on the flip side, that if a seller sends me their paypal info, the deal is locked in? I can't request any changes as a buyer that hasn't sent money or an address?

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Originally posted by SageShadows:
I would hope that you need to come to an agreement to buy the cards, THEN have the seller send you paypal information for the deal to be binding. Otherwise, I'd just send out my paypal information to everyone that posts on my sell list.

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A deal has been agreed to (should be fairly obvious)
Sending order has been agreed to
Addresses have been exchanged in the case of simul-send, or the address of the person receiving first has been sent

Once all of those things have been taken care of, it's a confirmed deal. If after that, both parties agree to a change, that's fine, no big deal. Otherwise, if the deal doesn't go through, the BTA is an acceptable option.

quote:

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Originally posted by thror:
'buyer pays first, here is my paypal address' == confirmed sale.

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Note the "agreed to" part of the sending order. Unless that had already been discussed and OK'd by the other party, that certainly isn't going to fly.

__________________
There's no need to fear, UNDERDOG is here!

All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

Report rules violations.

quote:

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Originally posted by JoshSherman:
If you don't like somebody's rules, don't deal with them. Simple as that.

I can't speak for zero ref upstarts that think they're going to conquer MOTL with their 1337 tech because I'm not one, nor was I ever.

I've been selling online on and off for sixteen years. I don't care how many refs you have, if you post on my list to buy something of mine, you're paying first. While I don't necessarily like to be the "if you don't like it, though cookies" guy, there it is.

That said, I did offer to trade a Black Lotus for 40 Eye of Ugin once, provided the other guy sent first.

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Originally posted by stu55:
Something really bad is going to happen to the next person that messages me asking me to check his list and not have any of my wants....

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quote:

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Originally posted by choco man:
champagne taste...beer budget

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That's everybody here.

"I want your Three Visits, foil duals and Nether Void!! Check my list~!"

List:

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Originally posted by Volcanon:
That's everybody here.

"I want your Three Visits, foil duals and Nether Void!! Check my list~!"

List:

"1x Ramosian Captain
1x Spike Weaver
1x Cursed Scroll **** DECKED HARD TO GET!!!!!!!"

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I live north of the 54th parallel. Nearest store that sells singles is a 6 hour drive.

I am on here to make trades and gross ones at that sometimes.

Really well done.

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Originally posted by JesusChristMD:
New alt-art planeswalkers look sick.

Really well done.

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Hopefully, in a few weeks the package will arrive at my doorstep and I can send the seller his money. In the event that they can never find it, what happens on here? I'm under the impression that it is in the rules that it's his responsibility to get the cards to me. However, I wanted someone else to confirm the course of action if and when the package is actually lost (according to USPS, somewhere in Orlando).

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Originally posted by Bruised:
Is there close ups of all 5 somewhere?

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A few people took pictures on twitter/salvation.

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Originally posted by JesusChristMD:
New alt-art planeswalkers look sick.

Really well done.

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They look too dark to be good to play with in casual (everybody: What's that?).

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Originally posted by WeedIan:
So i had an offer to sell me a set of shocks, but the person declined to send first (43 refs vs my 200+ refs).

Any reason to negotiate or just move on ?

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I wouldn't send first if I'm selling something, just saying.

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Originally posted by mattw:
What I don't understand is why so many people actually trade on here. I understand why I do but not others.

I live north of the 54th parallel. Nearest store that sells singles is a 6 hour drive.

I am on here to make trades and gross ones at that sometimes.

my playgroup doesnt go to gp's.

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