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Author	Topic: The Rulings Thread, part 43 (ALL rules-related questions go HERE!)
Our_Benefactors Member	posted May 14, 2009 11:16 AM quote: Originally posted by evilempire22: To clarify, I control both CoA and PoT when CoA kicks the bucket. How does this change things (if at all)? --Evil Since you control both, there won't be both child and prince triggers on the stack at the same time. Child goes to the graveyard, triggers. Resolves, everything blows up. Prince triggers for each permanent from your opponents.
Caitiri Member	posted May 14, 2009 11:23 AM quote: Originally posted by evilempire22: To clarify, I control both CoA and PoT when CoA kicks the bucket. How does this change things (if at all)? --Evil Ah, my mistake, I had misread your previous post. In this case CoA dies and its ability triggers. Assuming it resolves, all (nonland) permanents are destroyed, and for each permanent put into an opponents' graveyard PoT's ability triggers. -Caitiri EDIT: I'm assuming the confusion is in the fact that PoT is going to the graveyard at the same time as these other permanents. Here is the relevant rule: 410.10d Normally, objects that exist immediately after an event are checked to see if the event matched any trigger conditions. Continuous effects that exist at that time are used to determine what the trigger conditions are and what the objects involved in the event look like. However, some triggered abilities must be treated specially because the object with the ability may no longer be in play, may have moved to a hand or library, or may no longer be controlled by the appropriate player. The game has to “look back in time” to determine if these abilities trigger. Abilities that trigger specifically when an object leaves play, when an object is put into a hand or library from a public zone, or when a player loses control of an object will trigger based on their existence, and the appearance of objects, prior to the event rather than afterward. Example: Two creatures are in play along with an artifact that has the ability “Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from play, you gain 1 life.” Someone plays a spell that destroys all artifacts, creatures, and enchantments. The artifact’s ability triggers twice, even though the artifact goes to its owner’s graveyard at the same time as the creatures. __________________ Dark Ritual count: 746 [Edited 1 times, lastly by Caitiri on May 14, 2009]
iheartp9 Member	posted May 14, 2009 12:15 PM Actually, you have a bunch of triggers going on the stack at the same time. For every permanent that's being put into the graveyard the PoT's ability triggers and then you've also got the Child of Alara's trigger. As the player controlling all the triggers you get to choose the order they go on the stack. Now if the opponent has any leaves play triggers that changes things a little, and if that's the case PM me and we can talk about it. Really the idea scenario is for you to stack the PoT triggers then put the Child's trigger on the stack above them. This way the Child's trigger resolves first, destroys everything again and then your prince triggers will resolve and you'll get to keep some unexploded permanents. Edit: I misread the question. This would be the situation if someone wrathed and a bunch of guys went to the graveyard including the Prince and Child. What's the exact situation you're looking to solve? [Edited 1 times, lastly by iheartp9 on May 14, 2009]
Caitiri Member	posted May 14, 2009 12:20 PM quote: Originally posted by iheartp9: Actually, you have a bunch of triggers going on the stack at the same time. For every permanent that's being put into the graveyard the PoT's ability triggers and then you've also got the Child of Alara's trigger. As the player controlling all the triggers you get to choose the order they go on the stack. Now if the opponent has any leaves play triggers that changes things a little, and if that's the case PM me and we can talk about it. Really the idea scenario is for you to stack the PoT triggers then put the Child's trigger on the stack above them. This way the Child's trigger resolves first, destroys everything again and then your prince triggers will resolve and you'll get to keep some unexploded permanents. This is true only if Child and Prince go to the graveyard simultaneously, along with the other permanents. If Prince and the other permanents are going to the graveyard as a result of Child's ability, then Child's ability has to already have resolved, and the only relevant abilities are Prince's and any other effects that trigger on zone changes. -Caitiri __________________ Dark Ritual count: 746
iheartp9 Member	posted May 14, 2009 01:17 PM Agreed...as noted in my edit.
evilempire22 Member	posted May 14, 2009 01:29 PM quote: Originally posted by iheartp9: What's the exact situation you're looking to solve? Caitiri answered my question for me. Thanks! The situation arose while playing EDH, where I had CoA and PoT in play, facing down a couple opponents with lots of non-land permanents in play. I wanted to know if it was possible to sacrifice my CoA to blow everything up, and either make my opponents lose a lot of life or gain control of a lot of their permanents. Related question: What happens when I have Child of Alara in my hand, Prince of Thralls in my graveyard, and play Cauldron Dance putting them both into play until EOT? Will the same situation happen at EOT, or do things happen differently? --Evil __________________ I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds. Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see. Magic H/W List [Edited 1 times, lastly by evilempire22 on May 14, 2009]
Caitiri Member	posted May 14, 2009 02:07 PM quote: Originally posted by evilempire22: Caitiri answered my question for me. Thanks! The situation arose while playing EDH, where I had CoA and PoT in play, facing down a couple opponents with lots of non-land permanents in play. I wanted to know if it was possible to sacrifice my CoA to blow everything up, and either make my opponents lose a lot of life or gain control of a lot of their permanents. Related question: What happens when I have Child of Alara in my hand, Prince of Thralls in my graveyard, and play Cauldron Dance putting them both into play until EOT? Will the same situation happen at EOT, or do things happen differently? --Evil Cauldron Dance sets up two delayed triggers, one returning a creature to its owners hand and the other causing a creature's controller to sacrifice it. Since the controller of the delayed triggers is the person who played the spell that created them, you control both triggers and can choose the order in which they go on the stack. So you can either choose to (A) sacrifice CoA first, which will cause its ability to trigger and go on the stack above the delayed trigger returning PoT to your hand (in which case everything dies and your opponents have to pay life or let you have their permanents; note that PoT will not be returned to your hand when the second delayed trigger resolves because it's now in your graveyard), or (B) you can choose to return PoT to your hand and then sacrifice CoA. -Caitiri __________________ Dark Ritual count: 746
keijoh ita Member	posted May 15, 2009 08:56 AM 2. will city of solitude nullify cicles of protection? 3. when meddling mage leaves, can the named card be played? thanks in advance. [Edited 1 times, lastly by keijoh ita on May 15, 2009]
iheartp9 Member	posted May 15, 2009 09:37 AM City of Solitude doesn't nullify circles, it just makes them so that they can't play them during the opponents turn. During their own turn however, they're ok to use. Meddling Mage needs to be in play for his effect to prevent you from playing the spell, so once he leaves play you're free to play whatever had been named.
Nitelite Member	posted May 15, 2009 02:28 PM http://www.mtgcombos.com/combo.php?id=100 Does that combo actually work?
Our_Benefactors Member	posted May 15, 2009 02:53 PM quote: Originally posted by Nitelite: http://www.mtgcombos.com/combo.php?id=100 Does that combo actually work? I believe so. That thread is pure gold though, with one guy bugging out and suggesting that wizards will put out errata, and other people getting together figuring out how to make the combo better.
pyr0ma5ta Banned	posted May 16, 2009 10:42 AM quote: Originally posted by Nitelite: http://www.mtgcombos.com/combo.php?id=100 Does that combo actually work? Yes it does, but that doesn't mean it's any good... __________________ This message brought to you by MOTL's very own fancy biologist. Originally posted by Battle_of_Twits: So during intertron, the sperm fertilizes the egg inside the intertubes, and nine months later you have a happy meme and papa.
riceboy6i9sd New Member	posted May 19, 2009 07:39 AM quick question can you kill all tokens with volcanic fallout in response to a creature with devour being played? thanks
Our_Benefactors Member	posted May 19, 2009 09:00 AM quote: Originally posted by riceboy6i9sd: quick question can you kill all tokens with volcanic fallout in response to a creature with devour being played? thanks Assuming that 2 damage is lethal, yes.
MAB_Rapper Member	posted May 19, 2009 09:07 AM This might seem real basic, but does flipping use the stack. (i.e. Erayo) __________________ "Tower of Bauer" Signed Give-outs: 46 as of 12/21 Winner of 2007 and 2008 MOTL's Most Likely to Play in the Pro Tour (My Nationals Weekend Highlight)
JoshSherman Member	posted May 19, 2009 09:20 AM Yes, it does. 408.2. Actions That Don’t Use the Stack 408.2a. Effects don’t go on the stack; they’re the result of spells and abilities resolving. Effects may create delayed triggered abilities, however, and these may go on the stack when they trigger (see rule 404.4). 408.2b. Static abilities continuously generate effects and don’t go on the stack. 408.2c. State-based effects (see rule 420) resolve whenever a player would receive priority as long as the required game condition is true. 408.2d. Playing a land is a special action consisting of putting that land into play. (See rule 212.6 408.2e. Mana abilities resolve immediately. If a mana ability produces both mana and another effect, both the mana and the other effect happen immediately. If a player had priority before a mana ability was played, that player gets priority after it resolves. (See rule 406, “Mana Abilities.”) 408.2f. Characteristic-defining abilities, such as “[This object] is red,” are simply read and followed as applicable. (See also rule 405.2.) 408.2g. Game actions don’t use the stack. The game actions are phasing in and out at the start of the untap step (see rule 302.1), untapping at the start of the untap step (see rule 302.2), drawing a card at the start of the draw step (see rule 304.1), declaring attackers at the start of the declare attackers step (see rule 308.1), declaring blockers at the start of the declare blockers step (see rule 309.1), the active player discarding down to his or her maximum hand size at the start of the cleanup step (see rule 314.1), removing damage from permanents and ending “until end of turn” effects during the cleanup step (see rule 314.2), and mana burn as each phase ends (see rule 300.3). 408.2h. The controller of a face-down permanent may turn it face up. This is a special action. (See rule 504, “Face-Down Spells and Permanents.”) A player can turn a face-down permanent face up only when he or she has priority. That player gets priority after this special action. 408.2i. Some effects allow a player to take an action at a later time, usually to end a continuous effect or to stop a delayed triggered ability. This is a special action. A player can stop a delayed triggered ability from triggering or end a continuous effect only if the ability or effect allows it and only when he or she has priority. The player who took the action gets priority after this special action. 408.2j. Some effects from static abilities allow a player to take an action to ignore the effect from that ability for a duration. This is a special action. A player can take an action to ignore an effect only when he or she has priority. The player who took the action gets priority after this special action. 408.2k. A player who has a card with suspend in his or her hand may remove that card from the game. This is a special action. (See rule 502.59, “Suspend.”) A player can remove a card with suspend in his or her hand from the game only when he or she has priority. That player gets priority after this special action. __________________ MafiaBassJoshweekLetter Bombs!PricesGathererLogout* “Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." -Ayn Rand [Edited 1 times, lastly by JoshSherman on May 19, 2009]
iheartp9 Member	posted May 19, 2009 10:51 AM Flipping might use the stack, it depends on the card. In Erayo's case yes, but it's because his flip is a triggered ability. In the case of something like Homura, he's returned to play already flipped.
flavor_of_the_weak Member	posted May 19, 2009 06:32 PM Maelstrom Nexus 'The first spell you play each turn has cascade. (When you play your first spell, remove cards from the top of your library from the game until you remove a nonland card that costs less. You may play it without paying its mana cost. Put the removed cards on the bottom in a random order.)' What will happen if i played a spell with cascade? __________________ I need all Dragon Broodmother,Is sadly going deaf by the days and months,decks,MOTL'S #1 Music Member,Help Fight Poverty R.I.P Lucky (1997 -2003). God Bless You All.. Expect to see Graffitti Inc Clothing Soon! Trying To Collect The Foil Coldsnap Set Thank You & Check My Want l
Our_Benefactors Member	posted May 19, 2009 07:41 PM quote: Originally posted by flavor_of_the_weak: Maelstrom Nexus 'The first spell you play each turn has cascade. (When you play your first spell, remove cards from the top of your library from the game until you remove a nonland card that costs less. You may play it without paying its mana cost. Put the removed cards on the bottom in a random order.)' What will happen if i played a spell with cascade? It will have cascade twice, so you'll do it for two spells.
Kryne Member	posted May 20, 2009 05:54 PM A question on the nature of basic land: Are dual lands considered basic land since they count as both mountains and plains (or whichever two the specific dual consists of)? Further, in 11th or M10 or whatever, if they release a modified dual like many people think they may, would that then be considered basic land if it had the land type of forest, swamp, etc? Or could it go either way? Thanks, folks.
Our_Benefactors Member	posted May 20, 2009 06:31 PM quote: Originally posted by Kryne: A question on the nature of basic land: Are dual lands considered basic land since they count as both mountains and plains (or whichever two the specific dual consists of)? Further, in 11th or M10 or whatever, if they release a modified dual like many people think they may, would that then be considered basic land if it had the land type of forest, swamp, etc? Or could it go either way? Thanks, folks. No. They count as a "Plains" and an "Island" -or whatever the applicable types are. "Basic" is a supertype, like legend. Just because a land counts as a plains or a forest doesn't make it basic.
Caitiri Member	posted May 20, 2009 06:32 PM quote: Originally posted by Kryne: A question on the nature of basic land: Are dual lands considered basic land since they count as both mountains and plains (or whichever two the specific dual consists of)? Further, in 11th or M10 or whatever, if they release a modified dual like many people think they may, would that then be considered basic land if it had the land type of forest, swamp, etc? Or could it go either way? (So no, dual lands are not basic lands.) Thanks, folks. "Basic" is a supertype of the card type "Land". The type of land (Forest, Mountain, etc.) are subtypes. Lands are only basic if they have the supertype "Basic", which will come before Land on the type line. -Caitiri 205.4b Any land with the supertype “basic” is a basic land. Any land that doesn’t have this supertype is a nonbasic land. Example: Note that cards printed in sets prior to the Eighth Edition core set didn’t use the word “basic” to indicate a basic land. Cards from those sets with the following names are basic lands: Forest, Island, Mountain, Plains, Swamp, Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Island, Snow-Covered Mountain, Snow-Covered Plains, and Snow-Covered Swamp. __________________ Dark Ritual count: 746
iheartp9 Member	posted May 22, 2009 10:34 AM No, because Flashback and Dream Halls both represent alternate costs. You may only apply one alternate cost to a particular spell. So you couldn't flashback with dream halls, evoke with dream halls, etc.
keywacat Member	posted May 22, 2009 10:51 AM Do enchantments still continuously target a creature? That is, if my opponent cast Contaminated Bond on one of creatures, will it fall off when I equip the creature with Sword of Light & Shadow? I know it used to work like that, does it still? Cheers; keywacat
JoshSherman Member	posted May 22, 2009 11:51 AM quote: Originally posted by keywacat: Do enchantments still continuously target a creature? That is, if my opponent cast Contaminated Bond on one of creatures, will it fall off when I equip the creature with Sword of Light & Shadow? I know it used to work like that, does it still? Cheers; keywacat It's not quite that simple. A creature with shroud can be enchanted if you are able to get around having to target it (there are examples but I can't think of any atm). A creature with protection from a certain color cannot be enchanted by enchantments which are that color. If, for some reason, say a Paladin En-vec was enchanted with an unholy strength (let's say it was humbled, then you played it), the next time the knight has pro black and SBEs are checked, it would fall off. Note that if you have an effect that would change what an aura is enchanting, you can move it to a creature with shroud (assuming you're not targeting it), but you can't move it to a creature that has protection from the aura's color or colors, regardless of whether or not the effect is targeted. naturally it would have to be a legal target for the ability if the ability targeted. The answer to your scenario is yes, btw. The Bond falls off. __________________ MafiaBassJoshweekLetter Bombs!PricesGathererLogout* “Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." -Ayn Rand [Edited 1 times, lastly by JoshSherman on May 22, 2009]

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