Author
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Topic: Innistrad Spoiler!
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Pringlesman Member
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posted August 27, 2011 11:57 PM
Man, I was so excited about this block, but then they had to pull crap like this? This is really one of the worst designed mechanics they have ever made.Ok heres another question I have, what justification does wotc now have for not allowing World Champion cards in tourney decks (provided they play opaque sleeves?) I mean it's just another card with a different back.
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264505 Member
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posted August 28, 2011 12:24 AM
quote: Originally posted by Pringlesman: Man, I was so excited about this block, but then they had to pull crap like this? This is really one of the worst designed mechanics they have ever made.Ok heres another question I have, what justification does wotc now have for not allowing World Champion cards in tourney decks (provided they play opaque sleeves?) I mean it's just another card with a different back.
The fact they got sold for so cheap. I am in complete agreement here about the sleeves issue though. Imagine drafting with this as well. You look across from the person in front of you thumbing through their pack and see the back of a few day/night cards, see him snag one and hide it under the token/rules insert in the pack, instant information. The kamigawa block flip cards would have been eons better.
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Havoc Demon Member
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posted August 28, 2011 12:43 AM
quote: Originally posted by 264505: Imagine drafting with this as well.
Wow, I just realized how that could pose a problem. __________________ Most References in Massachusetts 88th All-timeSupport my friend's store: http://www.tabletoparena.com
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TimeBeing Member
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posted August 28, 2011 12:51 AM
quote: Originally posted by Havoc Demon: Wow, I just realized how that could pose a problem.
Yeah. You can even show it so you can tell people what color you drafted too. It's really weird. Love the flavor. Hate the execution. Starting to get the jump the shark feeling. ZEN was so good, hidden treasures was brilliant. Scars wad very mediocre and poison and Phyrexian mana sucked for the game. Now t go great flavor like Zen but crappy design like Scars.
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reaperbong Member
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posted August 28, 2011 01:01 AM
WOTC is ripping off the old CCG 'Rage' with these werewolf flip cards. except for without the gore and general badassness that made Rage awesome
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WeedIan Member
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posted August 28, 2011 05:42 AM
Flip cards are lame, and will be difficult to deal with.What happens if someone drafts 4 flip cards but only gets 3 checklists and no one will lend him checklists during a draft? Guess you can't play your flip card because people are jerks. __________________ Member Since 03/28/2001 10000+ posts 3rd in posts in Ontario 15th in posts on MOTL Top 5 in Refs in Ontario (by people who location posted)
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bstrom213 Banned
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posted August 28, 2011 05:58 AM
quote: Originally posted by Pringlesman: Man, I was so excited about this block, but then they had to pull crap like this? This is really one of the worst designed mechanics they have ever made.Ok heres another question I have, what justification does wotc now have for not allowing World Champion cards in tourney decks (provided they play opaque sleeves?) I mean it's just another card with a different back.
Wow, they got balls. This is one of those extremes that will either bring a lot of success or have the entire design team fired. I do wish they legalize world chanpionship cards though
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James_Hetfield2 Member
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posted August 28, 2011 06:04 AM
It works fine on MODO I wonder how foils will work. My first impression is don't like it. Besides the flipping, does it make sense that cards transform when people don't play spells. I guess its "quiet" so like night? I still want to see a Pirate or Ancient Egyptian themed sets. Planeswalker Ramesses II
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Bugger Member
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posted August 28, 2011 06:39 AM
ITT: knee-jerk reactions to something new better suited to salvation. Come on people, you're better than this. __________________ It is a known fact that more Americans watch the television than any other appliance.
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sammyt125 Member
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posted August 28, 2011 07:05 AM
quote: Originally posted by WeedIan: Flip cards are lame, and will be difficult to deal with.What happens if someone drafts 4 flip cards but only gets 3 checklists and no one will lend him checklists during a draft? Guess you can't play your flip card because people are jerks.
Use sleeves, then. Or use another card (not from the block) as a proxy. There are easy solutions.
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stab107 Member
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posted August 28, 2011 07:07 AM
quote: Originally posted by Bugger: ITT: knee-jerk reactions to something new better suited to salvation. Come on people, you're better than this.
Well put. I'm actually looking forward to MaRo's column tomorrow. It should prove interesting as he elaborates on the design of Innistrad. There are some really neat things going on here, things that are very different from anything we have seen in the past. As Innistrad is the second block in the newest block plan and the second block in Magic's newest phase (according to MaRo), it might give us some indications as to how things might be done in the future.
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Bugger Member
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posted August 28, 2011 07:15 AM
quote: Originally posted by Volcanon: Nah. Nothing will make me think this isn't crap. Half the time I don't draft with sleeves. I don't want to play with no stupid checklist either. I sincerely hope that none of these are tournament playable in any meaningful way so that I don't ever have to play with them.
Cynical, judgmental, and butthurt? You? No, never!
quote: Originally posted by Pringlesman: Ok heres another question I have, what justification does wotc now have for not allowing World Champion cards in tourney decks (provided they play opaque sleeves?) I mean it's just another card with a different back.
Is this supposed to be a riddle or something? They have gold borders. Boy, that was easy.
quote: Originally posted by TimeBeing: Yeah. You can even show it so you can tell people what color you drafted too. It's really weird. Love the flavor. Hate the execution. Starting to get the jump the shark feeling. ZEN was so good, hidden treasures was brilliant. Scars wad very mediocre and poison and Phyrexian mana sucked for the game. Now t go great flavor like Zen but crappy design like Scars.
Yeah, that Richard Garfield ******* really jumped the shark on this whole card game. Does he have, like, no respect for history or something? Get him off the design team, Rosewater! Clearly he doesn't know what he's doing.
quote: Originally posted by reaperbong: WOTC is ripping off the old CCG 'Rage' with these werewolf flip cards. except for without the gore and general badassness that made Rage awesome
I have nothing snarky to say to this except that I <3 the humor of a guy with "bong" in his name talking about rips :P
quote: Originally posted by WeedIan: Flip cards are lame, and will be difficult to deal with.What happens if someone drafts 4 flip cards but only gets 3 checklists and no one will lend him checklists during a draft? Guess you can't play your flip card because people are jerks.
...Are you serious? You can't be serious. Alright, I don't know how scarce the pen supply is up in canada these days, but if you ever find yourself in the absolutely crushing situation of not having enough official nifty checklist cards, I'm pretty sure you'll be able to write on a basic land and use that instead. __________________ It is a known fact that more Americans watch the television than any other appliance.
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mtglover Member
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posted August 28, 2011 07:21 AM
quote: Originally posted by sammyt125: Use sleeves, then. Or use another card (not from the block) as a proxy. There are easy solutions.
So what is the solution to exposing the cards during deck building? Oh look, I'm drafting green, oh look, I drafted that bomb.
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Bugger Member
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posted August 28, 2011 07:26 AM
quote: Originally posted by mtglover: So what is the solution to exposing the cards during deck building? Oh look, I'm drafting green, oh look, I drafted that bomb.
In fairness, this is the only valid concern I've yet seen expressed re: double-faced cards. I'd expect this to be either solved or explained by rosewater or Lapille this week. __________________ It is a known fact that more Americans watch the television than any other appliance.
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gaeacradle Member
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posted August 28, 2011 07:29 AM
quote: Originally posted by Bugger: In fairness, this is the only valid concern I've yet seen expressed re: double-faced cards. I'd expect this to be either solved or explained by rosewater or Lapille this week.
Same here. But in real actual tournament setting, you are not supposed to be looking at your opponents anyway.
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sammyt125 Member
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posted August 28, 2011 07:37 AM
quote: Originally posted by mtglover: So what is the solution to exposing the cards during deck building? Oh look, I'm drafting green, oh look, I drafted that bomb.
You can put a basic land/rules card on top of your drafted pile so you can hide the fact you picked a double-sided card. As for the drafting part, you are going to have to learn to look at cards more discreetly if you want to hide all the information.
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coasterdude84 Member
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posted August 28, 2011 07:53 AM
quote: Originally posted by James_Hetfield2: I wonder how foils will work.
I had the same thought. From a manufacturing standpoint, it seems like it would be difficult to foil the fronts and backs without foiling the backs of the normal cards. Unless of course, all the flip cards are printed on a separate sheet, but that would pose logistical problems as well. Sadly, my gut tells me only the front side will be foiled, but here's hoping I'm wrong.
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WeedIan Member
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posted August 28, 2011 07:56 AM
quote: Originally posted by WeedIan: Flip cards are lame, and will be difficult to deal with.What happens if someone drafts 4 flip cards but only gets 3 checklists and no one will lend him checklists during a draft? Guess you can't play your flip card because people are jerks.
quote: Originally posted by Bugger:
...Are you serious? You can't be serious. Alright, I don't know how scarce the pen supply is up in canada these days, but if you ever find yourself in the absolutely crushing situation of not having enough official nifty checklist cards, I'm pretty sure you'll be able to write on a basic land and use that instead.
I'm not serious but it said in his ruling you HAVE TO use a checklist. I don't like when people don't use sleeves to draft anyways.
quote: Originally posted by coasterdude84: I had the same thought. From a manufacturing standpoint, it seems like it would be difficult to foil the fronts and backs without foiling the backs of the normal cards. Unless of course, all the flip cards are printed on a separate sheet, but that would pose logistical problems as well. Sadly, my gut tells me only the front side will be foiled, but here's hoping I'm wrong.
Read some articles on de-inking foils and making proxies. They will likely use the foiling where the ink if on top of the shiny surface and cards would be printed on both sides. It is just an educated guess but it seems logical. __________________ Member Since 03/28/2001 10000+ posts 3rd in posts in Ontario 15th in posts on MOTL Top 5 in Refs in Ontario (by people who location posted)
[Edited 1 times, lastly by WeedIan on August 28, 2011]
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Bugger Member
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posted August 28, 2011 07:58 AM
quote: Originally posted by WeedIan:
I'm not serious but it said in his ruling you HAVE TO use a checklist.I don't like when people don't use sleeves to draft anyways.
I'm wagering at the local level your TO would let you use the super secret tech of basic lands + sharpie, and at higher levels like PTs and such they'll have checklist cards provided.
__________________ It is a known fact that more Americans watch the television than any other appliance.
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Devonin Member
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posted August 28, 2011 08:08 AM
There should be sufficient checklists floating around to allow you to use them for deck construction as well as draft concealment, so it shouldn't be that big of a problem.
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gaeacradle Member
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posted August 28, 2011 08:11 AM
quote: Originally posted by Devonin: There should be sufficient checklists floating around to allow you to use them for deck construction as well as draft concealment, so it shouldn't be that big of a problem.
Hehe. I only draft with a bunch of friends, so we look at each other's picks and packs from time to time anyway.
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JoshSherman Member
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posted August 28, 2011 08:18 AM
What upsets me about this is that the vast majority of my sleeves (and I have thousands) are not opaque. So now I have to buy a bunch of new sleeves? That doesn't seem fair to me.Of course, that really only applies if there isn't a checklist in every pack that has a flip card, or if they do not supply stores with a sleeve of them just in case (PLEASE!!!). This feels like a nightmare for judges at the prerelease and the launch party, honestly. I hope it isn't as bad as I think it could be. IDK when I became such a doomsayer... __________________ *Joshweek*Letter Bombs!*Facebook Me* *Logout- I had it first!*
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ryan2754 Member
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posted August 28, 2011 08:51 AM
I think this could have been done better, but the checklist seems like a decent way to fix the problem. I really don't understand why everyone is getting so upset. It's new and fresh. I love it, I love the art. Dig Elite Inquisitor, Stitched Drake, Diergraff Zombie, Dig the flavor of Ludevic's Test Subject and Screeching Bat. Seems fun.
[Edited 1 times, lastly by ryan2754 on August 28, 2011]
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AtriumXP Member
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posted August 28, 2011 08:56 AM
I'm on the fence as to how the Transformation cards will work out, but I'm still buying BOXEN (yay, Brian Regan reference!) of these. EDIT: Also, the spoiled "Ludevic's Test Subject" looks particularly impressive if combined with Proliferate Good thing Vampire Hexmage will rotate out soon, lol. I guess Hex Parasite is still a concern, though. __________________ Check my List! **I send in bubble mailer + top loader + soft sleeve**AtriumXP@gmail.com (e-mail/PayPal) I answer ref requests! Rippers, fear my Mail Fraud Form!
[Edited 1 times, lastly by AtriumXP on August 28, 2011]
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WestWycke Member
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posted August 28, 2011 10:30 AM
I think that this will prove to be more of a problem in the long-term future than in the immediate future, particularly for the casual environment. While a set is brand-new, it is hard to encounter the cards without also encountering the peripherals. Anyone played Scars block and NOT encounter the poison counters WOTC made? They're pretty ubiquitous. Now imagine someone new to the game trading for one of these double-sided cards a couple of years from now. Where will they be getting their checklists? How about the problems associated with storing, transporting, and managing a deck with double-sided cards and checklists? In the tournament environment, constructed decks will be larger than usual; what will you store them in? When you sit down to play, where do you put the double-sided cards so they're easily accessible when needed without giving information to your opponent. Heck, just the fact that you have to find someplace to set them aside gives your opponent some measure of information about the contents of your deck. OF course, in tournaments most players will likely go for the opaque sleeve option. But that will still require that the card be de-sleeved/flipped/re-sleeved when it transforms, or de-sleeved when it transforms and then played naked on the battlefield until it needs to get re-sleeved when it leaves the battlefield. Either way gets clumsy and will NOT help with the pace of games. And for casual players, trying to build decks and keep track of their cards becomes more difficult as you will almost need to keep one checklist with every double-sided card you own to ensure you can use it if you make a deck with it sometime in the future. I gotta say that the logistics of requiring either opaque sleeves for casual play, or needing two cards to represent one card in any environment, was a poor design choice. __________________ "If you're right 90% of the time, why quibble about the other 3% ?""I intend to live forever. So far, so good."
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