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Author Topic:   Innistrad Spoiler!
Pringlesman
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posted August 27, 2011 11:57 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Pringlesman Click Here to Email Pringlesman Send a private message to Pringlesman Click to send Pringlesman an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Man, I was so excited about this block, but then they had to pull crap like this? This is really one of the worst designed mechanics they have ever made.

Ok heres another question I have, what justification does wotc now have for not allowing World Champion cards in tourney decks (provided they play opaque sleeves?) I mean it's just another card with a different back.

 
264505
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posted August 28, 2011 12:24 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for 264505 Click Here to Email 264505 Send a private message to 264505 Click to send 264505 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View 264505's Have/Want ListView 264505's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Pringlesman:
Man, I was so excited about this block, but then they had to pull crap like this? This is really one of the worst designed mechanics they have ever made.

Ok heres another question I have, what justification does wotc now have for not allowing World Champion cards in tourney decks (provided they play opaque sleeves?) I mean it's just another card with a different back.


The fact they got sold for so cheap. I am in complete agreement here about the sleeves issue though. Imagine drafting with this as well. You look across from the person in front of you thumbing through their pack and see the back of a few day/night cards, see him snag one and hide it under the token/rules insert in the pack, instant information. The kamigawa block flip cards would have been eons better.

 
Havoc Demon
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posted August 28, 2011 12:43 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Havoc Demon Click Here to Email Havoc Demon Send a private message to Havoc Demon Click to send Havoc Demon an Instant MessageVisit Havoc Demon's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by 264505:
Imagine drafting with this as well.

Wow, I just realized how that could pose a problem.

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TimeBeing
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posted August 28, 2011 12:51 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for TimeBeing Click Here to Email TimeBeing Send a private message to TimeBeing Click to send TimeBeing an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Havoc Demon:
Wow, I just realized how that could pose a problem.


Yeah. You can even show it so you can tell people what color you drafted too. It's really weird.

Love the flavor. Hate the execution. Starting to get the jump the shark feeling. ZEN was so good, hidden treasures was brilliant. Scars wad very mediocre and poison and Phyrexian mana sucked for the game.

Now t go great flavor like Zen but crappy design like Scars.

 
reaperbong
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posted August 28, 2011 01:01 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for reaperbong Click Here to Email reaperbong Send a private message to reaperbong Click to send reaperbong an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
WOTC is ripping off the old CCG 'Rage' with these werewolf flip cards. except for without the gore and general badassness that made Rage awesome
 
WeedIan
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posted August 28, 2011 05:42 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for WeedIan Click Here to Email WeedIan Send a private message to WeedIan Click to send WeedIan an Instant MessageVisit WeedIan's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View WeedIan's Have/Want ListView WeedIan's Have/Want List
Flip cards are lame, and will be difficult to deal with.

What happens if someone drafts 4 flip cards but only gets 3 checklists and no one will lend him checklists during a draft?

Guess you can't play your flip card because people are jerks.

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bstrom213
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posted August 28, 2011 05:58 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for bstrom213 Click Here to Email bstrom213 Send a private message to bstrom213 Click to send bstrom213 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pringlesman:
Man, I was so excited about this block, but then they had to pull crap like this? This is really one of the worst designed mechanics they have ever made.

Ok heres another question I have, what justification does wotc now have for not allowing World Champion cards in tourney decks (provided they play opaque sleeves?) I mean it's just another card with a different back.


Wow, they got balls. This is one of those extremes that will either bring a lot of success or have the entire design team fired.

I do wish they legalize world chanpionship cards though

 
James_Hetfield2
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posted August 28, 2011 06:04 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for James_Hetfield2 Click Here to Email James_Hetfield2 Send a private message to James_Hetfield2 Click to send James_Hetfield2 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View James_Hetfield2's Have/Want ListView James_Hetfield2's Have/Want List
It works fine on MODO

I wonder how foils will work.

My first impression is don't like it. Besides the flipping, does it make sense that cards transform when people don't play spells. I guess its "quiet" so like night?

I still want to see a Pirate or Ancient Egyptian themed sets.

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Bugger
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posted August 28, 2011 06:39 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Bugger Click Here to Email Bugger Send a private message to Bugger Click to send Bugger an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
ITT: knee-jerk reactions to something new better suited to salvation. Come on people, you're better than this.

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sammyt125
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posted August 28, 2011 07:05 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for sammyt125 Click Here to Email sammyt125 Send a private message to sammyt125 Click to send sammyt125 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View sammyt125's Have/Want ListView sammyt125's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by WeedIan:
Flip cards are lame, and will be difficult to deal with.

What happens if someone drafts 4 flip cards but only gets 3 checklists and no one will lend him checklists during a draft?

Guess you can't play your flip card because people are jerks.


Use sleeves, then. Or use another card (not from the block) as a proxy. There are easy solutions.

 
stab107
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posted August 28, 2011 07:07 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for stab107 Click Here to Email stab107 Send a private message to stab107 Click to send stab107 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bugger:
ITT: knee-jerk reactions to something new better suited to salvation. Come on people, you're better than this.


Well put. I'm actually looking forward to MaRo's column tomorrow. It should prove interesting as he elaborates on the design of Innistrad. There are some really neat things going on here, things that are very different from anything we have seen in the past. As Innistrad is the second block in the newest block plan and the second block in Magic's newest phase (according to MaRo), it might give us some indications as to how things might be done in the future.

 
Bugger
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posted August 28, 2011 07:15 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Bugger Click Here to Email Bugger Send a private message to Bugger Click to send Bugger an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Volcanon:
Nah. Nothing will make me think this isn't crap. Half the time I don't draft with sleeves. I don't want to play with no stupid checklist either. I sincerely hope that none of these are tournament playable in any meaningful way so that I don't ever have to play with them.

Cynical, judgmental, and butthurt? You? No, never!


quote:
Originally posted by Pringlesman:
Ok heres another question I have, what justification does wotc now have for not allowing World Champion cards in tourney decks (provided they play opaque sleeves?) I mean it's just another card with a different back.

Is this supposed to be a riddle or something? They have gold borders. Boy, that was easy.


quote:
Originally posted by TimeBeing:
Yeah. You can even show it so you can tell people what color you drafted too. It's really weird.

Love the flavor. Hate the execution. Starting to get the jump the shark feeling. ZEN was so good, hidden treasures was brilliant. Scars wad very mediocre and poison and Phyrexian mana sucked for the game.

Now t go great flavor like Zen but crappy design like Scars.


Yeah, that Richard Garfield ******* really jumped the shark on this whole card game. Does he have, like, no respect for history or something? Get him off the design team, Rosewater! Clearly he doesn't know what he's doing.


quote:
Originally posted by reaperbong:
WOTC is ripping off the old CCG 'Rage' with these werewolf flip cards. except for without the gore and general badassness that made Rage awesome

I have nothing snarky to say to this except that I <3 the humor of a guy with "bong" in his name talking about rips :P


quote:
Originally posted by WeedIan:
Flip cards are lame, and will be difficult to deal with.

What happens if someone drafts 4 flip cards but only gets 3 checklists and no one will lend him checklists during a draft?

Guess you can't play your flip card because people are jerks.


...Are you serious?
You can't be serious.
Alright, I don't know how scarce the pen supply is up in canada these days, but if you ever find yourself in the absolutely crushing situation of not having enough official nifty checklist cards, I'm pretty sure you'll be able to write on a basic land and use that instead.

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mtglover
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posted August 28, 2011 07:21 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for mtglover Click Here to Email mtglover Send a private message to mtglover Click to send mtglover an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View mtglover's Have/Want ListView mtglover's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by sammyt125:
Use sleeves, then. Or use another card (not from the block) as a proxy. There are easy solutions.

So what is the solution to exposing the cards during deck building? Oh look, I'm drafting green, oh look, I drafted that bomb.

 
Bugger
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posted August 28, 2011 07:26 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Bugger Click Here to Email Bugger Send a private message to Bugger Click to send Bugger an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mtglover:
So what is the solution to exposing the cards during deck building? Oh look, I'm drafting green, oh look, I drafted that bomb.

In fairness, this is the only valid concern I've yet seen expressed re: double-faced cards. I'd expect this to be either solved or explained by rosewater or Lapille this week.

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gaeacradle
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posted August 28, 2011 07:29 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for gaeacradle Click Here to Email gaeacradle Send a private message to gaeacradle Click to send gaeacradle an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View gaeacradle's Have/Want ListView gaeacradle's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Bugger:
In fairness, this is the only valid concern I've yet seen expressed re: double-faced cards. I'd expect this to be either solved or explained by rosewater or Lapille this week.


Same here. But in real actual tournament setting, you are not supposed to be looking at your opponents anyway.

 
sammyt125
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posted August 28, 2011 07:37 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for sammyt125 Click Here to Email sammyt125 Send a private message to sammyt125 Click to send sammyt125 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View sammyt125's Have/Want ListView sammyt125's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by mtglover:
So what is the solution to exposing the cards during deck building? Oh look, I'm drafting green, oh look, I drafted that bomb.

You can put a basic land/rules card on top of your drafted pile so you can hide the fact you picked a double-sided card. As for the drafting part, you are going to have to learn to look at cards more discreetly if you want to hide all the information.

 
coasterdude84
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posted August 28, 2011 07:53 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for coasterdude84 Click Here to Email coasterdude84 Send a private message to coasterdude84 Click to send coasterdude84 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View coasterdude84's Trade Auction or SaleView coasterdude84's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by James_Hetfield2:
I wonder how foils will work.

I had the same thought. From a manufacturing standpoint, it seems like it would be difficult to foil the fronts and backs without foiling the backs of the normal cards. Unless of course, all the flip cards are printed on a separate sheet, but that would pose logistical problems as well. Sadly, my gut tells me only the front side will be foiled, but here's hoping I'm wrong.

 
WeedIan
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posted August 28, 2011 07:56 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for WeedIan Click Here to Email WeedIan Send a private message to WeedIan Click to send WeedIan an Instant MessageVisit WeedIan's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View WeedIan's Have/Want ListView WeedIan's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by WeedIan:
Flip cards are lame, and will be difficult to deal with.

What happens if someone drafts 4 flip cards but only gets 3 checklists and no one will lend him checklists during a draft?

Guess you can't play your flip card because people are jerks.



quote:
Originally posted by Bugger:

...Are you serious?
You can't be serious.
Alright, I don't know how scarce the pen supply is up in canada these days, but if you ever find yourself in the absolutely crushing situation of not having enough official nifty checklist cards, I'm pretty sure you'll be able to write on a basic land and use that instead.


I'm not serious but it said in his ruling you HAVE TO use a checklist.

I don't like when people don't use sleeves to draft anyways.


quote:
Originally posted by coasterdude84:
I had the same thought. From a manufacturing standpoint, it seems like it would be difficult to foil the fronts and backs without foiling the backs of the normal cards. Unless of course, all the flip cards are printed on a separate sheet, but that would pose logistical problems as well. Sadly, my gut tells me only the front side will be foiled, but here's hoping I'm wrong.

Read some articles on de-inking foils and making proxies. They will likely use the foiling where the ink if on top of the shiny surface and cards would be printed on both sides.

It is just an educated guess but it seems logical.
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[Edited 1 times, lastly by WeedIan on August 28, 2011]

 
Bugger
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posted August 28, 2011 07:58 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Bugger Click Here to Email Bugger Send a private message to Bugger Click to send Bugger an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by WeedIan:

I'm not serious but it said in his ruling you HAVE TO use a checklist.

I don't like when people don't use sleeves to draft anyways.



I'm wagering at the local level your TO would let you use the super secret tech of basic lands + sharpie, and at higher levels like PTs and such they'll have checklist cards provided.

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Devonin
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posted August 28, 2011 08:08 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Devonin Click Here to Email Devonin Send a private message to Devonin Click to send Devonin an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View Devonin's Have/Want ListView Devonin's Have/Want List
There should be sufficient checklists floating around to allow you to use them for deck construction as well as draft concealment, so it shouldn't be that big of a problem.

 
gaeacradle
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posted August 28, 2011 08:11 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for gaeacradle Click Here to Email gaeacradle Send a private message to gaeacradle Click to send gaeacradle an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View gaeacradle's Have/Want ListView gaeacradle's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Devonin:
There should be sufficient checklists floating around to allow you to use them for deck construction as well as draft concealment, so it shouldn't be that big of a problem.


Hehe. I only draft with a bunch of friends, so we look at each other's picks and packs from time to time anyway.

 
JoshSherman
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posted August 28, 2011 08:18 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for JoshSherman Click Here to Email JoshSherman Send a private message to JoshSherman Click to send JoshSherman an Instant MessageVisit JoshSherman's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View JoshSherman's Trade Auction or SaleView JoshSherman's Trade Auction or Sale
What upsets me about this is that the vast majority of my sleeves (and I have thousands) are not opaque. So now I have to buy a bunch of new sleeves? That doesn't seem fair to me.

Of course, that really only applies if there isn't a checklist in every pack that has a flip card, or if they do not supply stores with a sleeve of them just in case (PLEASE!!!).

This feels like a nightmare for judges at the prerelease and the launch party, honestly. I hope it isn't as bad as I think it could be. IDK when I became such a doomsayer...

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ryan2754
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posted August 28, 2011 08:51 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for ryan2754 Click Here to Email ryan2754 Send a private message to ryan2754 Click to send ryan2754 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View ryan2754's Have/Want ListView ryan2754's Have/Want List
I think this could have been done better, but the checklist seems like a decent way to fix the problem. I really don't understand why everyone is getting so upset. It's new and fresh. I love it, I love the art.


Dig Elite Inquisitor, Stitched Drake, Diergraff Zombie,
Dig the flavor of Ludevic's Test Subject and Screeching Bat.
Seems fun.

[Edited 1 times, lastly by ryan2754 on August 28, 2011]

 
AtriumXP
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posted August 28, 2011 08:56 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for AtriumXP Click Here to Email AtriumXP Send a private message to AtriumXP Click to send AtriumXP an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I'm on the fence as to how the Transformation cards will work out, but I'm still buying BOXEN (yay, Brian Regan reference!) of these.

EDIT:
Also, the spoiled "Ludevic's Test Subject" looks particularly impressive if combined with Proliferate

Good thing Vampire Hexmage will rotate out soon, lol. I guess Hex Parasite is still a concern, though.

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[Edited 1 times, lastly by AtriumXP on August 28, 2011]

 
WestWycke
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posted August 28, 2011 10:30 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for WestWycke Click Here to Email WestWycke Send a private message to WestWycke Click to send WestWycke an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I think that this will prove to be more of a problem in the long-term future than in the immediate future, particularly for the casual environment. While a set is brand-new, it is hard to encounter the cards without also encountering the peripherals. Anyone played Scars block and NOT encounter the poison counters WOTC made? They're pretty ubiquitous. Now imagine someone new to the game trading for one of these double-sided cards a couple of years from now. Where will they be getting their checklists?

How about the problems associated with storing, transporting, and managing a deck with double-sided cards and checklists? In the tournament environment, constructed decks will be larger than usual; what will you store them in? When you sit down to play, where do you put the double-sided cards so they're easily accessible when needed without giving information to your opponent. Heck, just the fact that you have to find someplace to set them aside gives your opponent some measure of information about the contents of your deck. OF course, in tournaments most players will likely go for the opaque sleeve option. But that will still require that the card be de-sleeved/flipped/re-sleeved when it transforms, or de-sleeved when it transforms and then played naked on the battlefield until it needs to get re-sleeved when it leaves the battlefield. Either way gets clumsy and will NOT help with the pace of games.

And for casual players, trying to build decks and keep track of their cards becomes more difficult as you will almost need to keep one checklist with every double-sided card you own to ensure you can use it if you make a deck with it sometime in the future.

I gotta say that the logistics of requiring either opaque sleeves for casual play, or needing two cards to represent one card in any environment, was a poor design choice.

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