I'll also be interested in how the first match of each prerelease goes. I can imagine a number of people neglecting the checklist and shuffling naked. There will be a lot of judge calls as these players are instructed to use the checklists. It seems like the judges will need to make it explicitly clear how these are expected to work prior to the start of the tournament. They will probably have to repeat themselves multiple times, as many players near me disregard the judges and do their own thing.

Question: how exactly will these interact with Maelstrom Pulse and Deed? I imagine that the cmc of a transformed card is the same as its other face, right? I'm less clear on Pulse, however.

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quote:

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Originally posted by WestWycke:
I think that this will prove to be more of a problem in the long-term future than in the immediate future, particularly for the casual environment. While a set is brand-new, it is hard to encounter the cards without also encountering the peripherals. Anyone played Scars block and NOT encounter the poison counters WOTC made? They're pretty ubiquitous. Now imagine someone new to the game trading for one of these double-sided cards a couple of years from now. Where will they be getting their checklists?

How about the problems associated with storing, transporting, and managing a deck with double-sided cards and checklists? In the tournament environment, constructed decks will be larger than usual; what will you store them in? When you sit down to play, where do you put the double-sided cards so they're easily accessible when needed without giving information to your opponent. Heck, just the fact that you have to find someplace to set them aside gives your opponent some measure of information about the contents of your deck. OF course, in tournaments most players will likely go for the opaque sleeve option. But that will still require that the card be de-sleeved/flipped/re-sleeved when it transforms, or de-sleeved when it transforms and then played naked on the battlefield until it needs to get re-sleeved when it leaves the battlefield. Either way gets clumsy and will NOT help with the pace of games.

And for casual players, trying to build decks and keep track of their cards becomes more difficult as you will almost need to keep one checklist with every double-sided card you own to ensure you can use it if you make a deck with it sometime in the future.

I gotta say that the logistics of requiring either opaque sleeves for casual play, or needing two cards to represent one card in any environment, was a poor design choice.

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For the third time: are you really fretting about casual? Use the super secret tech of sharpie + basic land if you're so worried about not having enough checklists. It's really, truly, honestly not an issue.

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RIP Ari

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sliver King:
I am excited to see how these actually play. They seem cool, but I envision a few rough moments when one player claims to have played two spells in a given turn while the other disagrees.

I'll also be interested in how the first match of each prerelease goes. I can imagine a number of people neglecting the checklist and shuffling naked. There will be a lot of judge calls as these players are instructed to use the checklists. It seems like the judges will need to make it explicitly clear how these are expected to work prior to the start of the tournament. They will probably have to repeat themselves multiple times, as many players near me disregard the judges and do their own thing.

Regardless of these potential difficulties, I cannot wait to get my hands on some lycanthropes and go to town (why did they have to get rid of that creature type - it was so cool!)

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1.How would one argue about the number of spells played in a turn. If you play a spell....then don't play another spell, and I don't play a spell guess what? Nothing happens. If I draw and say go and you don't respond with any spells guess what? My guy flips. How does one argue about the amount of spells that were cast? Was that a real thought? Are you reaching for a complaint?

2.How is this going to be hard? You get a checklist card to use as a flip card. If you shuffle without sleeves your opponent is obviously going to make you take the card out of the deck because you can plainly see the card like a marked card rule. So this is what happens....the judge comes over, tells you to use the checklist and reshuffle. How is this going to be a hard problem to fix? Again....reaching for complaints.

For the rest of you

This set looks awesome. Most of you are bitching because you are plain stupid and like to bitch. I'm not suprised one bit as every time a new set spoiler comes out MOTL turns into Salvation Jr.

quote:

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Originally posted by daner:
1.How would one argue about the number of spells played in a turn. If you play a spell....then don't play another spell, and I don't play a spell guess what? Nothing happens. If I draw and say go and you don't respond with any spells guess what? My guy flips. How does one argue about the amount of spells that were cast? Was that a real thought? Are you reaching for a complaint?

2.How is this going to be hard? You get a checklist card to use as a flip card. If you shuffle without sleeves your opponent is obviously going to make you take the card out of the deck because you can plainly see the card like a marked card rule. So this is what happens....the judge comes over, tells you to use the checklist and reshuffle. How is this going to be a hard problem to fix? Again....reaching for complaints.

For the rest of you

This set looks awesome. Most of you are bitching because you are plain stupid and like to bitch. I'm not suprised one bit as every time a new set spoiler comes out MOTL turns into Salvation Jr.

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For once, daner and I are in complete agreement; he just says what's in my mind without editing for politeness.

quote:

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Originally posted by revenger:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gaeacradle:So the enemy version of core set duals are going to in Innistrad.

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Hmm. What happens to the other duals in the format of type 2? Which ones rotate?

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quote:

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Originally posted by revenger:
Hmm. What happens to the other duals in the format of type 2? Which ones rotate?

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quote:

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Originally posted by daner:
Most of you are bitching because you are plain stupid and like to bitch. I'm not suprised one bit as every time a new set spoiler comes out MOTL turns into Salvation Jr.

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I don't understand why some people respond so severely to discussions posted on this site. If you disagree with something that's been posted, feel free to say so. There's no need to call people "stupid" because they've expressed an opinion that might be contrary to your own.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sliver King:
I don't understand why some people respond so severely to discussions posted on this site. If you disagree with something that's been posted, feel free to say so. There's no need to call people "stupid" because they've expressed an opinion that might be contrary to your own.

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The "OMG Magic is ruined, this set is aweful, fire everyone at WOTC" chicken little responses that are being generated are NOT discussions. These "discussions", if you want to call them that, are really just moans and groans you would expect from a child.

Like Bugger and I have said...most of this you'd expect from Salvation. It just keeps getting worse and worse on MOTL. If all you can add to a discussion is how terrible something is, then why even open your mouth? You add NOTHING to discussion and to call it a discussion in itself is a crime against rational thought.

quote:

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Originally posted by Goaswerfraiejen:
I hated Kamigawa (largely because I didn't care for the flavour or the art) and flip cards. These, I don't mind. In fact, they're kinda cool IMO. But they clearly introduce a whole slew of problems that it may have been better to avoid--and it really is just the same mechanic rehashed.

Question: how exactly will these interact with Maelstrom Pulse and Deed? I imagine that the cmc of a transformed card is the same as its other face, right? I'm less clear on Pulse, however.

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quote:

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Originally posted by daner:

Why not have a positive outlook until you've actually played with the cards?

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Because we are all entitled to our own opinions, even if they are contrary to yours.

The flip cards create headaches.
1) Now you HAVE to play with sleeves, or have these official proxies. Are there going to be enough for everyone? How do we know? Will there be any 5 years from now, when someone wants to draft Inn for fun? There are still people that don't like to play with sleeves, and this will irk them.
2) Your flip card is in a sleeve, whats the other side? 10 minutes later, wait what does the other side do again? Etc.
3) Judge, i sided in my flip card by mistake, so now it and the checklist card are in my deck. Halp!
4) Hey, its a draft, and i can see two of the cards in YOUR pack. And you took the red one. Now i can screw with your draft by cutting red in pack two, hurrah, this is fun.

Wotc had to really, REALLY think these were the greatest thing ever if they printed it in spite of these points. It's ballsy, and there is a possibility it backfires, and if I were making the cards, printing on the back is something i would NOT have done.

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quote:

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Originally posted by thror:
Because we are all entitled to our own opinions, even if they are contrary to yours.

The flip cards create headaches.
1) Now you HAVE to play with sleeves, or have these official proxies. Are there going to be enough for everyone? How do we know? Will there be any 5 years from now, when someone wants to draft Inn for fun? There are still people that don't like to play with sleeves, and this will irk them.
2) Your flip card is in a sleeve, whats the other side? 10 minutes later, wait what does the other side do again? Etc.
3) Judge, i sided in my flip card by mistake, so now it and the checklist card are in my deck. Halp!
4) Hey, its a draft, and i can see two of the cards in YOUR pack. And you took the red one. Now i can screw with your draft by cutting red in pack two, hurrah, this is fun.

Wotc had to really, REALLY think these were the greatest thing ever if they printed it in spite of these points. It's ballsy, and there is a possibility it backfires, and if I were making the cards, printing on the back is something i would NOT have done.

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Don't play with total morons?

1) If anyone is really not smart enough to figure out that a sharpie + basic land = flip card replacement, they have no business playing Magic.

2) WotC has specifically said that the flip cards should be removed from the sleeves when in play if sleeved.

3) Is this really any different than some idiot shuffling tokens into their decks between games, or improperly sideboarding? This is not a new problem, and trying to make it into one is just silly.

4) Turn-about is fair play. Yes, this will cause some strangeness in drafts, but it isn't that hard to be careful when looking at your cards to not reveal information that you don't want to reveal.

I'm presuming and hoping the fight mechanic is Green's attempt at removal. I was thinking it would have eventually been Provoke but fight seems close enough.

quote:

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Originally posted by CubFan81:
Forget the flavor and transform cards, I want to talk about the fighting!

I'm presuming and hoping the fight mechanic is Green's attempt at removal. I was thinking it would have eventually been Provoke but fight seems close enough.

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It can't be green's attempt at removal, seeing how it's activation cost is R. Honestly, it took them long enough to keyword it, although I honestly thought it would be called "Dueling". Kind of like there's a card called Rival's Duel. I think Duel evokes more flavor than Fighting. Look at Arena, Magus of the Arena, etc.

quote:

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Originally posted by AlmostGrown:
It can't be green's attempt at removal, seeing how it's activation cost is R. Honestly, it took them long enough to keyword it, although I honestly thought it would be called "Dueling". Kind of like there's a card called Rival's Duel. I think Duel evokes more flavor than Fighting. Look at Arena, Magus of the Arena, etc.

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Yeah, fighting is kind of a ridiculous keyword. After all, that's what they're supposed to be doing during the combat phase.

Sort of reminds of Pokémon, and the type that was 'fighting'. All the Pokémon were built to fight, making the 'fighting' type kind of redundant.

__________________
"I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each. I do not think they will sing to me." -T.S. Eliot

RIP Ari