quote:

---

Originally posted by Havoc Demon:
Since Tooth and Nail gets the instant win, I would rather have that than a big clunky Angel that eats a Sword/Path/Condemn/Oblation. And Kaalia is probably the only deck that can get it to Tooth and Nail level. But that's just me.

But that's just me.

---

Lots of people don't mind instant winning with Tooth and Nail entwined and thats fine by me, but its not how I like to play EDH. Also, the Karador deck I play is for 1v1 which is what I usually play these days and 9 mana spells aren't good in 1v1. Honestly, I'd go with hermit druid if I wanted to win like that. I had a hermit druid deck for a week and took it apart immediately. Super powerful and super boring.

V Tutor
Imperial Seal
Demonic Tutor
Fauna Shaman
Survival of the Fittest
Eladamri's Call
Enlightened Tutor

Those 7 cards mean there is almost an 80% chance I will have one in my opening hand (includes the free mull). So, 80% of the time Avacyn can be in play by turn 5 with no ramp. 55% of the time, with survival, I will have Avacyn in play by turn 4. Thats about the same speed excluding haste/ramp as Kaalia getting Avacyn into play.

Fauna Shaman/Survival for Avacyn --> Loyal Retainer. Cast Retainer and get Avacyn into play.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bugger:
If you're playing EDH with this Sirlin-style approach to every match, then you're absolutely correct - you shouldn't be playing the format in the first place.

---

You're totally right, introducing competitive elements into a multiplayer game is totally un-fun, bro. EDH can be casual and competitive at the same time, and the only reason it becomes "un-fun" is when people draw some imaginary line in the sand in regards to what's an acceptable way to finish the game. Declaring that anyone wishing to create a deck designed with efficient win-conditions somehow doesn't "get it" is hypocritical. I totally understand people wanting to create some deck that includes Intruder Alarm , Grip of Chaos, and Kiki-Jiki. I just hope they understand that people also enjoy winning a game a magic, and more importantly, don't try to shame a player for wanting to win.

Casual concessions have already been made in competitive constructed formats, i.e. no more cheap/Mass LD, limited combo opportunities, and conditional countermagic at 2cmc. Expecting people to feel bad about trying to add some consistency and speed to a 100-card singleton deck is absurd. Equally absurd is saying a 9-mana spell is somehow against the spirit of the EDH format. Is leyline of the void + Helm of Obedience better because it only hits 1 player at a time and requires 2 cards? Is Kiki-Jiki + Village Bell Ringer better because it only uses white and red cards?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeckk:
You're totally right, introducing competitive elements into a multiplayer game is totally un-fun, bro. EDH can be casual and competitive at the same time, and the only reason it becomes "un-fun" is when people draw some imaginary line in the sand in regards to what's an acceptable way to finish the game. Declaring that anyone wishing to create a deck designed with efficient win-conditions somehow doesn't "get it" is hypocritical. I totally understand people wanting to create some deck that includes Intruder Alarm , Grip of Chaos, and Kiki-Jiki. I just hope they understand that people also enjoy winning a game a magic, and more importantly, don't try to shame a player for wanting to win.

Casual concessions have already been made in competitive constructed formats, i.e. no more cheap/Mass LD, limited combo opportunities, and conditional countermagic at 2cmc. Expecting people to feel bad about trying to add some consistency and speed to a 100-card singleton deck is absurd. Equally absurd is saying a 9-mana spell is somehow against the spirit of the EDH format. Is leyline of the void + Helm of Obedience better because it only hits 1 player at a time and requires 2 cards? Is Kiki-Jiki + Village Bell Ringer better because it only uses white and red cards?

As I said before, slippery slope. I'm sure you can convince your local EDH players to feel bad about playing certain cards, but I've found it much more rewarding to simply accept the parameters of the card pool, and simply not get upset when another player successfully executes a gameplan. You're getting upset over how a person wins at EDH because you CHOOSE to get upset over it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeckk:
You're totally right, introducing competitive elements into a multiplayer game is totally un-fun, bro. EDH can be casual and competitive at the same time, and the only reason it becomes "un-fun" is when people draw some imaginary line in the sand in regards to what's an acceptable way to finish the game. Declaring that anyone wishing to create a deck designed with efficient win-conditions somehow doesn't "get it" is hypocritical. I totally understand people wanting to create some deck that includes Intruder Alarm , Grip of Chaos, and Kiki-Jiki. I just hope they understand that people also enjoy winning a game a magic, and more importantly, don't try to shame a player for wanting to win.

Casual concessions have already been made in competitive constructed formats, i.e. no more cheap/Mass LD, limited combo opportunities, and conditional countermagic at 2cmc. Expecting people to feel bad about trying to add some consistency and speed to a 100-card singleton deck is absurd. Equally absurd is saying a 9-mana spell is somehow against the spirit of the EDH format. Is leyline of the void + Helm of Obedience better because it only hits 1 player at a time and requires 2 cards? Is Kiki-Jiki + Village Bell Ringer better because it only uses white and red cards?

As I said before, slippery slope. I'm sure you can convince your local EDH players to feel bad about playing certain cards, but I've found it much more rewarding to simply accept the parameters of the card pool, and simply not get upset when another player successfully executes a gameplan. You're getting upset over how a person wins at EDH because you CHOOSE to get upset over it.

---

Exactly what casual concessions are being made in competitive formats? LD isn't played because of some arbitrary gentleman's agreement. It isn't played b/c it's against the rules to play cards not in the format.

Winning at any legal cost is fine in competitive sanctioned play. But doing so at the expense of casual play is lame. It's a poor attitude to have.

I think it's you who is on the slippery slope. Don't be so quick to disregard things that make people upset. If you act like a constant d-bag and people get upset at that, they aren't upset because they're overly sensitive/thinned-skin. Perhaps, you're just a dirtbag.

As for "being a dirtbag" - do you really have no perspective of competition outside of MtG? This is a serious question. For instance, co-ed softball leagues are semi-competitive, where people still put forward an effort to win, yet enjoyment is still had by simply hanging out with friends. No one accuses the other team of being dirtbags because they can turn a double play. Perhaps you play fighting games like street fighter? I certainly run into players that accuse anyone who beats them of resorting to "cheap tactics", when the reality is that they simply don't have a coping mechanism for losing. I'll say it for the final time- its a slippery slope. If you're going to play a game with the intention of winning, then anything within the rules is fair game. Anything less is simply an attempt to stifle adaptation and competition. As I said before, it's entirely your decision whether or not the way a person plays the format upsets you.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeckk:
Casual concessions in regards to R&D limiting their design of the aforementioned cards. Stop trying to twist my meaning when its perfectly clear to what I referring to.

As for "being a dirtbag" - do you really have no perspective of competition outside of MtG? This is a serious question. For instance, co-ed softball leagues are semi-competitive, where people still put forward an effort to win, yet enjoyment is still had by simply hanging out with friends. No one accuses the other team of being dirtbags because they can turn a double play. Perhaps you play fighting games like street fighter? I certainly run into players that accuse anyone who beats them of resorting to "cheap tactics", when the reality is that they simply don't have a coping mechanism for losing. I'll say it for the final time- its a slippery slope. If you're going to play a game with the intention of winning, then anything within the rules is fair game. Anything less is simply an attempt to stifle adaptation and competition. As I said before, it's entirely your decision whether or not the way a person plays the format upsets you.

If you wanted to make the argument that the EDH rules committee needs to implement rules that do a better job reinforcing the "casualness" of the format, then that's an entirely different argument. Personally, I find it hilarious that people like yourself would play a format pool that includes sol ring and mana vault, then cry foul on any player designing a deck that uses those cards for maxmimum efficiency. Is the point of EDH to simply see as many cards from your deck as possible? Is that fun for you?

---

Your points aren't perfectly clear. You certainly aren't perfect. You aren't even very good at delivering your points (using Candelabra for example). WOTC is as official as it gets. For you to say that following deck-building rules is casual is stupid.

R&D deliberately limits certain designs for the entire well-being of the game. I trust their decisions much more than your lame-brain decisions and insistence on having maximum powerful cards. What if every card just had a cantrip attached to it? What if every creature had an ETB effect? Power doesn't necessitate a better game.

I agree with you that it's a slippery slope to label certain things as "cheap." But it's just ignorant for you to dismiss that "cheap" things do indeed exist. Patches fix some cheap stuff in video games, bannings fix some cheap stuff in MTG. But please, it's clear that those policies can't fix everything. Cheap things exist, period. So what you're willing to use them at every step? It's cheap get over it. You don't mind abusing those tactics. You shouldn't mind being called cheap.

Ultimately, here's the deal...

In a non-tourney setting, people don't generally play with the intent on winning. The main intent is having fun. You have failed at every step to understand that. If winning is so fun, how about everyone just concede to you every time they play you in non-tourneys?

do you have any concept of fun other than to win in the most ruthless/efficient manner possible?

I understand your entire Sirlin approach to this debate. But his viewpoint on competitiveness is wholly one-sided and narrow when it comes to EDH or anything non-tournament related for anything.

If you use the same tactic to repeatedly defeat someone in a fighting game, they shouldn't be a baby and cry foul.

But on the same level, don't you find it incredibly lame to win in the same manner each and every single time? If you routinely defeat the players in your playgroup with the same tactics over and over again....don't you grow bored with it. If you are truly competitive, then you'd seek true competition. Diago doesn't derive any pleasure in beating scrubs in random arcades all day, he seeks true opponents. Similarly, you'll rarely ever find NBA players dunking (risking injury) playing against college/high school kids.

Your mindless devotion to Sirlin's principles have made you completely near-sighted on the true reasons why people play in non-tournament settings. People play for fun, not to win. This isn't a fighting game tournament.

I find it hilarious that you accuse so many other people of attacking "straw-mans." You act as if you base you're arguments on clean logic when you're really actually amateur.

So what EDH has Sol Ring/Mana Vault? Don't even bring that up, it's irrelevant. The EDH committee has already openly stated that "brokiness/cheapness" exists. They have openly stated that their solution isn't to "ban anything/everything that is broken." They bring up the social contract and individual playgroup decisions as the primary regulator for enjoying EDH.

Is the point of EDH to simply win as ruthlessly/efficiently as possible? Is that fun for you?

Who wants to play 4 time walks in all formats?

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/mm/mm190_card.jpg

__________________
"He fights you not because you have wronged him, but because you are there."

[16:17] <@BrassMan> what do you need new tech for?
[16:18] <@BrassMan> gush is unrestricted

quote:

---

Originally posted by thror:
We're way off topic. So im going to derail this derail.

Who wants to play 4 time walks in all formats?

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/mm/mm190_card.jpg

---

Is the new frame going to be on each Miracle card?

quote:

---

Originally posted by choco man:
Is the new frame going to be on each Miracle card?

---

Yes, yes it is...

Also, more money Mythics seeing how 3 of the 4 are easily playable in every format Legacy forward.

Also three solid uncommons, love the 3 mana black demon tho, very solid control finisher.

quote:

---

Originally posted by thror:
We're way off topic. So im going to derail this derail.

Who wants to play 4 time walks in all formats?

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/mm/mm190_card.jpg

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Phyrexian Angel:
This card is ridiculous in legacy with Brainstorms, Ponders, Tops and Jaces....

---

MAGIC IS RUINED! <- Jokes

Also i think they'll either ban this card in legacy or Brainstorm, top and jace.

I don't know what they were thinking, a 2 Mana Timewalk in any format that Brainstorm is legal.

quote:

---

Originally posted by thror:
We're way off topic. So im going to derail this derail.

Who wants to play 4 time walks in all formats?

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/mm/mm190_card.jpg

---

__________________
Most References in Massachusetts
80th All-time

Support my friend's store: http://www.tabletoparena.com

quote:

---

Originally posted by thror:
We're way off topic. So im going to derail this derail.

Who wants to play 4 time walks in all formats?

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/mm/mm190_card.jpg

---

Seems WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too powerful in legacy.

Whats next? A miracle "ancestral recall"?

I kinda want to get all 30 basic lands in foil to see how they all look, side by side.

quote:

---

Originally posted by yakusoku:
The Avacyn Restored basic lands are "restored" versions of their &type=+[%22Land%22]+[%22Basic%22]]Innistrad basic counterparts.

I kinda want to get all 30 basic lands in foil to see how they all look, side by side.

No matter how good Temporal Mastery turns out to be, it's a mythic rare, and it has the phrase "Take an extra turn after this one." on it, so it's going to be insane out of the gates. Any guesses on pre-sale prices? I'd guess at least $25, probably at least $30 from SCG, and if it's selling for $35+, I won't be shocked.

---

Playsets at 30.00 each sold out within minutes of listing, many were buy up to 5 playsets, all sold.

Grislbrand is ~90% sold out at 40.00 playset, and the Red Miracle is sold out at 4.99 playset...

Set is showing a lot of promise as far a EV value goes.

quote:

---

Originally posted by yakusoku:
The Avacyn Restored basic lands are "restored" versions of their &type=+[%22Land%22]+[%22Basic%22]]Innistrad basic counterparts.

I kinda want to get all 30 basic lands in foil to see how they all look, side by side.

No matter how good Temporal Mastery turns out to be, it's a mythic rare, and it has the phrase "Take an extra turn after this one." on it, so it's going to be insane out of the gates. Any guesses on pre-sale prices? I'd guess at least $25, probably at least $30 from SCG, and if it's selling for $35+, I won't be shocked.

---

They're 35 on ebay already. Time Reversal was at least $40 at one point during pre-sales.

__________________
"He fights you not because you have wronged him, but because you are there."

[16:17] <@BrassMan> what do you need new tech for?
[16:18] <@BrassMan> gush is unrestricted

Spikes hate to durdle, and they hate to have irrelevant plays. That isn't the same as needing to win. I don't run chaff in my EDH decks because it defeats the purpose of deckbuilding. Furthermore, it's pretty ridiculous to argue that I'm failing to have fun if I'm somehow being competitive at EDH. The format can be competitive AND fun, despite your attempt to argue otherwise. The format itself leads to a rather high amount of variance, which is entertaining enough. Calling someone a dirtbag because they run too many tutors for your liking, or playing cards that you personally don't approve of is petty.

1. Still costs 2 mana, and most of the top blue decks in legacy are tempo-based, which means they want board presence before an extra turn. Which leads into the second problem.

2. Awkward draws, and awkward opening hands. Yes, it's a blue card to pitch to FoW. Yes, a time walk is pretty saucy when it's only 2 mana. But there are plenty of plays in the current RUG delver, UR delver, and Stoneblade lists where you really want removal, or countermagic, or a threat as opposed to a time walk. Dropping those kinds of cards for temporal mastery can be problematic.

With that said, I see JTMS gaining a bit of value if temporal mastery finds a foothold in legacy, because he both enables the miracle cost and presents a very scary board presence to make use of the extra turn.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Th3Sparkl3r:
I honestly can't believe this is printed...it's even nuttier considering that if you manage to set it up and draw it on your opponent's turn (ponder -> gitaxian probe) that you can essentially cast it as an instant.

What in god's name is Wizards smoking to think this is going to be a good idea? And where can I get some?

---

Probe is also sorcery speed, but you can get the desired effect with think twice, at least in standard. Modern has some interesting instant speed draw options, the most playable of which involve merfolk looter effects paired with noxious revival.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeckk:
Probe is also sorcery speed, but you can get the desired effect with think twice, at least in standard. Modern has some interesting instant speed draw options, the most playable of which involve merfolk looter effects paired with noxious revival.

I find the value of the pre-orders pretty hilarious. I'm getting flashbacks of Time Reversal hysteria, and the notion that Griselbrand MIGHT be a legacy reanimator target better than jin-gitaxis isn't worth 40 a pop in my mind. Griselbrand ain't blue, and he doesn't get rid of my opponent's hand.

---

You're completely correct. I was thinking of thought scour and wrote probe for some reason. Serves me right for posting on a lack of sleep lol.