Simic, being a UG guild has green fatties and blue control. They work together on the battlefield, so the weak wizards use Evolve to become more formidable.

quote:

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Originally posted by Pail42:
I'm not focusing on the name (sorry I realize now putting it in quotes makes it seem that way). I'm focusing on things blue does and things green does. Putting 1/1 counters on creatures is a very green ability. Moving 1/1 counters to other creatures is a very green ability.

Blue is the color that has the least interaction with 1/1 counters in the entire history of magic.

It doesn't make sense for an ability that is supposed to showcase blue's and green's shared identity to be so focused on putting 1/1 counters on creatures.

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However, Graft is a bad ability for UG for all the same reasons that Evolve is.

quote:

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Originally posted by daner:
It's actually a perfect fit for Simic. In Dissension there were plenty of Green only cards that had counters but all had the Simic Watermark. Simic is just as much Green as it is Blue. Again, this makes perfect sense.

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It's normal for green creatures to get and use +1/+1 counters, and green is one of the Simic colors, so it's normal that there would be Green and Blue-Green Simic creatures that have +1/+1 counters. I don't have a problem with that part. Let's consider a different mechanic in Magic that is strongly tied to certain colors.

Lifelink is a big part of what makes up the identity of white and black. Would you be okay with mono-red lifelink goblins in Rakdos or Boros? How about mono-blue lifelink in Azorius or Dimir? It seems like WoTC recognized that this color identity was important; there are no mono-red, mono-blue, or mono-green creatures with lifelink in any Ravnica set (I'm omitting Stonefare Crocodile due to the B activation). There are only four non-W/B creatures that have lifelink in Magic's history and they are all dependent of white or black conditions to gain the ability.

Unleash works for red and black - there is a long history of red and black creatures that can't block but are bigger than creatures that cost the same.

Detain works blue and white - both colors have cards that prevent attacking and keep abilities from activating.

Overload works for blue and red - both colors like casting big spells.

Populate works for white and green - both colors like creating tokens and playing lots of creatures.

Scavenge works for black and green - both have a graveyard use theme and a +1/+1 counter theme.

quote:

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Originally posted by skizzikmonger:
Fathom Mage
2GU
Creature - Human Wizard
Evolve
Whenever a +1/+1 counter is placed on
Fathom Mage, you may draw a card.
1/1

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quote:

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Originally posted by Zeckk:
rarely /= never. Stop defining the color pie in absolutes, because R&D sure doesn't. It's pretty absurd to say that because blue isn't really known for creature pumping, blue can never have access to creatures with increasing P/T. The worst part is that you are dismissing evolve out of hand, yet we've already been spoiled another evolve creature that works quite well in terms of being a "blue" card yet showcasing the evolve mechanic.

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R&D does define some parts of the color pie in absolutes (or at least very near absolute) see the lifelink example in my previous post.

I'm not saying that blue can't have access to creatures with increasing power and toughness it has plenty of examples to the contrary. It is also not a primary color that cares about power or toughness and there is plenty of history to back that up.

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Originally posted by fluffycow:
Not the most powerful mechanic I see. This is gonna be a super challenging mechanic to play with in limited though. I can just see myself trying to get max value out of everything and just get owned by aggro decks

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pail42:
If we define "Simic" as what Simic did in the original Ravnica block then evolve fits. Evolve is extremely similar to the Graft ability from that set and it fits thematically with the guild's purpose of growth and evolution.

However, Graft is a bad ability for UG for all the same reasons that Evolve is.

It's normal for green creatures to get and use +1/+1 counters, and green is one of the Simic colors, so it's normal that there would be Green and Blue-Green Simic creatures that have +1/+1 counters. I don't have a problem with that part. Let's consider a different mechanic in Magic that is strongly tied to certain colors.

Lifelink is a big part of what makes up the identity of white and black. Would you be okay with mono-red lifelink goblins in Rakdos or Boros? How about mono-blue lifelink in Azorius or Dimir? It seems like WoTC recognized that this color identity was important; there are no mono-red, mono-blue, or mono-green creatures with lifelink in any Ravnica set (I'm omitting Stonefare Crocodile due to the B activation). There are only four non-W/B creatures that have lifelink in Magic's history and they are all dependent of white or black conditions to gain the ability.

Unleash works for red and black - there is a long history of red and black creatures that can't block but are bigger than creatures that cost the same.

Detain works blue and white - both colors have cards that prevent attacking and keep abilities from activating.

Overload works for blue and red - both colors like casting big spells.

Populate works for white and green - both colors like creating tokens and playing lots of creatures.

Scavenge works for black and green - both have a graveyard use theme and a +1/+1 counter theme.

Simic is a Blue and Green guild. It's ability should be something that both Green and Blue share. Blue rarely uses +1/+1 counters, so as a guild mechanic it is a bad design.

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Originally posted by Zeckk:
Agreed. People were very hyped on izzet limited until practice dictated that selesnya and rakdos aggro would too often simply run you over if you didn't deal with their threats at the earliest convenience.

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Izzet limited comes down to how many Frostburn Weird's you can snag. He alone can control the pace of the early game vs Rakdos and Selesnya.

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Originally posted by daner:
Izzet limited comes down to how many Frostburn Weird's you can snag. He alone can control the pace of the early game vs Rakdos and Selesnya.

That said, I too agree people went about it the wrong way right out of the gate. While Rakdos was never overlooked bc of all the removal, I know a lot of people shunned g/w and populate. Then you beat them with a Selesnya deck and show them the true power. Like every card you play is either a creature, or a spell + and ability that nets you a creature as an added bonus.

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Not me. At the pre-release, I chose Selesnya bc of the populate. My guild pack was awesome. I pulled a Smiter, a Call of the Conclave, and Guildmage. Overall, I had 2 Guildmages, 2x Call of the Conclave, 2 Rootborn Defense, 2x Druid's Delivarance, 1 Selesnya Charm.

1 misplay in a later round, had me get a draw, and ultimately finish 9th
Without the draw I would have been 5th.

~MM

__________________
Blah, blah, blah werewolf. Smackity-smack not a werewolf. Suspicious of this fruit loop.
My vote this round will be for Player X.

I do like the fact that it's uncounterable, and instant, and potentially powerful with double strikers.

quote:

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Originally posted by skizzikmonger:
Firemane Avenger
2RW
Creature - Angel
Flying
Battalion - Whenever Firemane Avenger
and at least two other creatures attack,
Firemane Avenger deals 3 damage to target
creature or player and you gain 3 life.
3/3

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quote:

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Originally posted by gaeacradle:
I feel like this is a classic trap card. The ability is powerful, but to turn it on is quite a task.

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Compares pretty well to Windbrisk Heights imo. You dont get random blowouts, but free lightning helixs every attack step is preeetty good.

Being a decent flyer by herself is also fine. Add a couple token makers, maybe RWb for lingering souls, itll beat face.

__________________
"He fights you not because you have wronged him, but because you are there."

[16:17] <@BrassMan> what do you need new tech for?
[16:18] <@BrassMan> gush is unrestricted

quote:

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Originally posted by thror:
Compares pretty well to Windbrisk Heights imo. You dont get random blowouts, but free lightning helixs every attack step is preeetty good.

Being a decent flyer by herself is also fine. Add a couple token makers, maybe RWb for lingering souls, itll beat face.

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Also looks like it has good game vs aggro based decks lacking mass removal, as it can just out race them.

quote:

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Originally posted by gaeacradle:
I feel like this is a classic trap card. The ability is powerful, but to turn it on is quite a task.

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Midnight haunting and lingering souls, paired with the already existing R/W humans deck (that conveniently plays lightning mauler), means that this is a legit playable card. Evasion, decent body, good interaction with an existing deck, extremely powerful attack trigger.

If these are indeed the pre-release promos, boros certainly got a powerful one.

quote:

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Originally posted by daner:
It's a fine card but is it better than Hellrider? Both are 4 drops, and Hellrider doesn't require another card to gain haste. Hellrider still seems like the card of choice for Boros to me.

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depends what the meta looks like. if you just want super aggro boros, sure, hellrider is probably better. if you actually have to beat face through blockers like Centaur Healer, angel might be what you're looking for.

__________________
"He fights you not because you have wronged him, but because you are there."

[16:17] <@BrassMan> what do you need new tech for?
[16:18] <@BrassMan> gush is unrestricted

The problem here isn't an issue of worrying too much or not enough about the color pie, or which mechanics belong to which guilds. The problem is dismissing the LORE of the guilds.

Each guild isn't just two colours. They are two colours, plus a JOB, plus a METHOD, plus a STYLE.

Simic isn't just "Blue and Green" Simic is a guild full of researchers, naturalists, and stewards. They're in charge of developing and preserving the natural in a world of the artificial.

They are concerned with the natural world, which is why they are green. Nature, living things, the wild animals and creatures of Ravnica. But they aren't just proponents of nature, and natural progression (That would be White instead of Blue: Selesnya), and they don't just change things around willy nilly with no thought for the consequences (That would be Red instead of Green: Izzet)

Instead they fiddle, they modify, they improve according to their own standards of improvement. That's the blue part.

And that is why Graft (Taking powers and characteristics of one creature, and moving them onto another, to make it better) was a great Simic ability. It had the creature focus, and the natural growth portion of Green, and it had the deliberate modification of things to make them "better" of blue.

And that is also why Evolve (Encouraging creatures to improve and become stronger by putting them in competition with stronger things) is a great Simic ability. It has the same creature and growth function of Green, with again, the same deliberate purposeful modification of the nature of Blue.

The fact that it uses +1/+1 counters is completely irrelevant to a discussion of the fitness of the mechanic as a U/G mechanic. They could have created a new thing, Evolution Counters, and just had the primary function of evolution counters be to give +1/+1 and suddenly it would be a cool new thing that fit great with the colours. You're adding counters, moving them around in a way that modifies and improves things.

That's VERY blue even if they don't traditionally handle counter manipulation (They DO modify creature types, be all creature types, swap power and toughness, add and remove abilities from other things, copy abilities other things have, copy other creatures)