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Author Topic:   Post for Magic Stuff #90 - Storm is coming
iccarus
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posted January 18, 2016 09:45 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for iccarus Click Here to Email iccarus Send a private message to iccarus Click to send iccarus an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Prophet of Kruphix banned in EDH. I haven't played the format in months, but this does not shock me in the least. I kind of figured it would happen eventually.

quote:
Summary:

* Commander-specific mulligan rules are removed
* Rule 4 (mana generation restriction) is removed
* Prophet of Kruphix is banned

Mulligans:

We promised in the last update that, with the advent of the Vancouver Mulligan, we'd be evaluating the mulligan process in Commander. This announcement is the culmination of that research. After examining several popular options, and coming up with a few of our own, we've concluded that the Vancouver Mulligan (with the standard first-one-free in multiplayer and a scry once you go to 6 or fewer) is the best option. The RC continues to use and recommend the Gis ("Mulligan 7s to a playable hand. Don't abuse this") for trusted playgroups, but that's not something that can go in the rules.

Ultimately, the goal of mulligans in Commander is to ensure that you start the game with enough lands to be a participant. With Commander games running an hour plus, it's unfortunate if you can't play anything because you miss land drops and get run over quickly.

We didn't want to solve the problems of Magic itself - mana screw and mana flood are part of the game - and players need to make a reasonable effort with their land counts, but we wanted a mulligan rule that tried to minimize unplayable opening hands. So, we brainstormed, and ran computer simulations. And what ultimately came out was... it didn't much matter. Nothing provided a clear enough upgrade to justify having additional rules for mulligans. For example, with 37 lands, Partial Paris was "successful" (which we defined as playing a 4th land on turn 4) 89% of the time versus Multiplayer Vancouver at 86%, but it came at a cost of about a fifth of a card on average. On the whole, 86% success is a rate that seems reasonable.

If you find yourself playing 1v1 (perhaps while waiting for a friend to show up), you should still use the free multiplayer mulligan. With a deck this size, variance is high enough to make not having the free mulligan potentially punishing - without the free mulligan you drop down to about 80% success rate, which, combined with being the only opponent to focus on, leads to too many unfortunate games.

Finally, it’s not an official rule, but we recommend setting aside the hands you're mulliganning away until you get a keeper. That saves shuffling time, and we're all for minimizing shuffling 100-card decks.

Rule 4:

We still love Rule 4. It's a nice piece of flavor and reinforces the idea that this format goes beyond simple mechanical restrictions into a deeper philosophical approach around color and mana symbols. Its effect on the game was pretty small, but that flavor message made it worthwhile to preserve.

However, the mana system of Magic is very complicated, and trying to insert an extra rule there has consequences in the corners. Harvest Mage. Celestial Dawn. Gauntlet of Power. And now, colorless-only mana costs.

Being able to generate colorless mana more easily in Commander wasn't going to break anything. But, it represented another "gotcha" moment for players, who were now likely to learn about Rule 4 when someone exploited the colorless loophole. We could paper over it (both "mana generated from off-color sources can only pay generic costs" and "you can't pay a cost outside your color identity" were considered), but a lot of the flavor would be lost in the transition, defeating the purpose. Without the resonant flavor, Rule 4 was increasingly looking like mana burn - a rule that didn't come up enough to justify it's existence.

We don't expect removing the rule to have a big impact. Some Sunburst and Converge cards might get a bit more of a look. Sen Triplets works more like you'd expect, as does Praetor's Grasp. The clone-and-steal deck, already one of the most popular archetypes, gets better, but less than you might think. It turns out there really aren't that many impactful non-blue activated abilities on cards that commonly get stolen in Commander. It's OK if you can regenerate that creature you just stole, and you'll need to work for it a bit anyway.

One side benefit to the removal of both the color production and mulligan rules is that, in terms of game play, Commander becomes a normal game of multiplayer Magic with a higher life total and a set of additive rules to bring a new piece (your Commander) into the game. That's good streamlining in terms of teaching people the format and reducing gotcha moments while still preserving the essential flavor of Commander.

Prophet of Kruphix:

This was challenging. Prophet is not a traditionally obvious problem card for Commander, so we chose to take a conservative approach and see if casual groups could adapt. In the past, we've seen unpopular cards generate a lot of outcry, but be handled reasonably well. Powerful cards existing is OK and exploring them responsibly is an essential part of Commander.

This didn't happen with Prophet. Casual groups haven't been able to work around it and problematic play has not dropped off in hoped-for ways. Instead, the primary approach has been to steal it, clone it, run it yourself, or get run over. Ultimately, it seems the card is too perfect - it does everything U/G Commander players want to be doing and it does it in a way that makes counterplay difficult. With traditional boogeymen such as Consecrated Sphinx, you're forced to expend a lot of your mana to cast it and will have a challenge protecting it as the turn goes around the table. With Prophet, it has virtual protection built in, negating that disadvantage almost immediately.

Prophet becomes only the second multicolored card on the banlist (after the structurally-problematic Coalition Victory). It's telling just how pervasive Prophet is despite such a restriction. Yes, U/G is the most popular color combination in Commander, but we've reached the point where Prophet is driving U/G deck choice, rather than vice-versa. That's centralizing in ways we can't ignore, so it's time for Prophet to take a break.

Whenever we decide to ban a card, we take a long look at the current list to see if any cards can come off, as we believe a casual format is better served by a minimalist banlist. After extensive discussion, however, we concluded that everything on the list served a purpose, so we won't be unbanning anything. It's been two years since the last (non-consolidation) card got banned, which is an acceptable growth rate!



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[Edited 1 times, lastly by iccarus on January 18, 2016]

 
aethertech
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posted January 18, 2016 10:02 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for aethertech Click Here to Email aethertech Send a private message to aethertech Click to send aethertech an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View aethertech's Have/Want ListView aethertech's Have/Want List
Oh wow, they banned Prophet.

About ****ing time.

Finally, the RC does something reasonably intelligent. Now, they just need to hit Survival of the Fittest. One can hope...

 
choco man
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posted January 18, 2016 10:34 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for choco man Click Here to Email choco man Send a private message to choco man Click to send choco man an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View choco man's Have/Want ListView choco man's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by aethertech:
Oh wow, they banned Prophet.

About ****ing time.

Finally, the RC does something reasonably intelligent. Now, they just need to hit Survival of the Fittest. One can hope...


EDH is really the last place you can play a toolbox deck. Do you really want to take that away from me? Don't be an evil turd!

I'm more happy about the mulligan rule than anything else. I got sick of everyone asking, "partial mulls?" Prophet never ruined anything for me, I put cheap threats and answers in my all of my decks.

 
flam flawless
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posted January 18, 2016 11:35 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for flam flawless Click Here to Email flam flawless Send a private message to flam flawless Click to send flam flawless an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View flam flawless's Have/Want ListView flam flawless's Have/Want List
I can see why prophet got the hammer...was insane with consecrated Sphinx to just unload guys you draw at the end step of each players turn.
 
iccarus
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posted January 18, 2016 11:52 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for iccarus Click Here to Email iccarus Send a private message to iccarus Click to send iccarus an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by flam flawless:
I can see why prophet got the hammer...was insane with consecrated Sphinx to just unload guys you draw at the end step of each players turn.

It has consistently been my go-to "get this into play" creature since it was printed. It always draws groans from the table when it hits the board. If it wasn't getting killed, it was getting cloned or stolen.

It may have needed other components to be truly busted, but I fully believe it warped games and needed to go. Pretty much felt the same about Primeval Titan, another card I loved to run but fully accepted its time was done.

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I collect Granite Gargoyles. Send them my way.


[Edited 2 times, lastly by iccarus on January 18, 2016]

 
caquaa
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posted January 18, 2016 12:34 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for caquaa Click Here to Email caquaa Send a private message to caquaa Click to send caquaa an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View caquaa's Trade Auction or SaleView caquaa's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by aethertech:
Finally, the RC does something reasonably intelligent. Now, they just need to hit Survival of the Fittest. One can hope...

eh, I personally prefer earthcraft. Its so hard not to be randomly infinite with that card. I borrowed a deck last night and had: earthcraft, avenger of zendikar, deadeye navigator... herp derp. I mean, deadeye is kinda a problem too.

 
Pail42
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posted January 18, 2016 01:58 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Pail42 Send a private message to Pail42 Click to send Pail42 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
I'm glad to see rule 4 go away. My playgroup already ignored it.
 
choco man
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posted January 18, 2016 08:03 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for choco man Click Here to Email choco man Send a private message to choco man Click to send choco man an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View choco man's Have/Want ListView choco man's Have/Want List
For COP: Red, can I bank mana into it like a regeneration shield?

That is, can i just put mana into it without anything else on the stack and for the rest of the turn if a red source would damage me prevent it?

 
skizzikmonger
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posted January 18, 2016 08:45 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for skizzikmonger Click Here to Email skizzikmonger Send a private message to skizzikmonger Click to send skizzikmonger an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by choco man:
For COP: Red, can I bank mana into it like a regeneration shield?

That is, can i just put mana into it without anything else on the stack and for the rest of the turn if a red source would damage me prevent it?


Yes

From Gatherer:
"Can be used even when there is no damage to prevent. It prevents the next damage (if any) from the source this turn."

 
Nicksmagic
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posted January 19, 2016 02:14 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Nicksmagic Click Here to Email Nicksmagic Send a private message to Nicksmagic Click to send Nicksmagic an Instant MessageVisit Nicksmagic's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
"Without the resonant flavor, Rule 4 was increasingly looking like mana burn - a rule that didn't come up enough to justify it's existence."

Was that the reason mana burn went away? I was always under the impression that it was complicated and made new players cry...

WOTC seems to choose their own narrative regardless of fact/history at an increasing rate these days. This whole past year, it seems like each time WOTC puts an explanation out for me to read, I'm left thinking "why did they really do this?"

 
dfitzg88
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posted January 19, 2016 02:27 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for dfitzg88 Click Here to Email dfitzg88 Send a private message to dfitzg88 Click to send dfitzg88 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View dfitzg88's Have/Want ListView dfitzg88's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Nicksmagic:
Was that the reason mana burn went away? I was always under the impression that it was complicated and made new players cry...

All 3 reasons were cited in the article by Mark Rosewater after the 2010 rules change. The Mirrodin version of Mindslaver is the only true loser.

Edit: and of course The Fallen. Almost forgot about that (mages consumed by mana burn)

[Edited 2 times, lastly by dfitzg88 on January 19, 2016]

 
revenger
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posted January 20, 2016 01:02 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for revenger Click Here to Email revenger Send a private message to revenger Click to send revenger an Instant MessageVisit revenger's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View revenger's Have/Want ListView revenger's Have/Want List
Pardon my ignorance, but where is Emrakul in the latest set?

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DJSmurfy
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posted January 20, 2016 01:28 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for DJSmurfy Click Here to Email DJSmurfy Send a private message to DJSmurfy Click to send DJSmurfy an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Magic: the OldSchoolening continues, as I build Psychatog, Fires, revised-only U/W control, and continue tweaking Madness. Trix might make it's way into this too. Old Magic was so fun.
 
iccarus
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posted January 20, 2016 06:00 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for iccarus Click Here to Email iccarus Send a private message to iccarus Click to send iccarus an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by revenger:
Pardon my ignorance, but where is Emrakul in the latest set?

Slumbering, wandering the blind eternities, starting to probe Innistrad. Hard to say as I don't think it's actually been mentioned. Most of the BFZ storyline focused on Ulamog. Kozilek didn't even show up until the tail end during the battle at Seagate.

__________________
Wisconsin - smells like dairy air!

I collect Granite Gargoyles. Send them my way.


[Edited 1 times, lastly by iccarus on January 20, 2016]

 
caquaa
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posted January 20, 2016 06:33 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for caquaa Click Here to Email caquaa Send a private message to caquaa Click to send caquaa an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View caquaa's Trade Auction or SaleView caquaa's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by DJSmurfy:
Magic: the OldSchoolening continues, as I build Psychatog, Fires, revised-only U/W control, and continue tweaking Madness. Trix might make it's way into this too. Old Magic was so fun.

Jar? Academy.dec (whatever it was actually called)? Replenish? Bargain/skirge familiar/corrupt.dec?

Gotta make some of the fun ones.

 
Pail42
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posted January 20, 2016 06:37 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Pail42 Send a private message to Pail42 Click to send Pail42 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dfitzg88:
All 3 reasons were cited in the article by Mark Rosewater after the 2010 rules change. The Mirrodin version of Mindslaver is the only true loser.

Edit: and of course The Fallen. Almost forgot about that (mages consumed by mana burn)


At the time the controlling player rules prevented mana burn. Mindslaver was unaffected.

Mana Cache, on the other hand, is drastically worse.

 
dfitzg88
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posted January 20, 2016 07:31 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for dfitzg88 Click Here to Email dfitzg88 Send a private message to dfitzg88 Click to send dfitzg88 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View dfitzg88's Have/Want ListView dfitzg88's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by Pail42:
At the time the controlling player rules prevented mana burn. Mindslaver was unaffected.

Mana Cache, on the other hand, is drastically worse.


i was talking about the reminder text on Mindslaver actually. It pains me to look at.

 
ryan2754
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posted January 20, 2016 10:47 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for ryan2754 Click Here to Email ryan2754 Send a private message to ryan2754 Click to send ryan2754 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View ryan2754's Have/Want ListView ryan2754's Have/Want List
What is rule 4
 
dwiz
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posted January 21, 2016 04:02 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for dwiz Click Here to Email dwiz Send a private message to dwiz Click to send dwiz an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View dwiz's Trade Auction or SaleView dwiz's Trade Auction or Sale
quote:
Originally posted by ryan2754:
What is rule 4

It's literally on this page.

 
Pail42
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posted January 21, 2016 07:37 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for Pail42 Send a private message to Pail42 Click to send Pail42 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Rule 4 prevented you from generating mana that didn't match your commander's identity (it would be colorless instead). That rule was removed, mostly because it makes generating colorless mana too easy.
 
James_Hetfield2
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posted January 21, 2016 08:22 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for James_Hetfield2 Click Here to Email James_Hetfield2 Send a private message to James_Hetfield2 Click to send James_Hetfield2 an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
Can't believe how many people I've met whose parents have given them $100k plus to invest/spend on Magic.

My parents gave me a kick out the door

 
oneofchaos
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posted January 21, 2016 10:24 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for oneofchaos Click Here to Email oneofchaos Send a private message to oneofchaos Click to send oneofchaos an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by James_Hetfield2:
Can't believe how many people I've met whose parents have given them $100k plus to invest/spend on Magic.

My parents gave me a kick out the door


Did I read that correctly? 100,000 dollars? To invest in magic? Doesn't sound like these parents are in a bad position even if their child had invested in splinter twins.

 
aethertech
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posted January 21, 2016 10:57 AM   Click Here to See the Profile for aethertech Click Here to Email aethertech Send a private message to aethertech Click to send aethertech an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View aethertech's Have/Want ListView aethertech's Have/Want List
Daumn.

Someone give me $100k to invest in magic, and I'll give them the $100K back in a few years with 10% interest, and still have a $100k left for myself.

 
revenger
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posted January 22, 2016 06:26 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for revenger Click Here to Email revenger Send a private message to revenger Click to send revenger an Instant MessageVisit revenger's Homepage  Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote View revenger's Have/Want ListView revenger's Have/Want List
quote:
Originally posted by oneofchaos:
Did I read that correctly? 100,000 dollars? To invest in magic? Doesn't sound like these parents are in a bad position even if their child had invested in splinter twins.

I hope it wasn't the same person who bought a box of Stronghold and didn't pull any rares.

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I offer 3rd party trading services. Email if interested.

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Volcanon
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posted January 22, 2016 07:09 PM   Click Here to See the Profile for Volcanon Click Here to Email Volcanon Send a private message to Volcanon Click to send Volcanon an Instant Message Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by aethertech:
Daumn.

Someone give me $100k to invest in magic, and I'll give them the $100K back in a few years with 10% interest, and still have a $100k left for myself.


Sure until the bubble bursts.

I'd lend you $100K if you can give me a mortgage on your house maybe.

 

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