I'd appreciate it if you didn't sign up for any more (at least) werewolf games that I am running if you can't understand that I do these things so that people can try and have some fun. I don't get paid to do this. I volunteer my time and effort. I have a 45+ hr a week job, a wife and 4 kids and yet I still make time to have everyone have fun playing an effing game.

~MM

__________________
I am MeddlingMage...YOUR Motl Survivor 11 Champion, 2007 Captain N award winner, 2010 Marlboro award winner.

MafiaBass (9:48:50 PM): sorry my keyboard is sticky
MeddlingEric (9:48:56 PM): ewwww
MafiaBass (9:51:43 PM): FTR, I did not show you my e-pee-pee

quote:

---

Originally posted by MeddlingMage:
Zak, with all new games/roles play testing is required and input is appreciated and expected. Remember I didn't come ask or beg you to play a game. You volunteered. New rules, new interactions, new playing.

I'd appreciate it if you didn't sign up for any more (at least) werewolf games that I am running if you can't understand that I do these things so that people can try and have some fun. I don't get paid to do this. I volunteer my time and effort. I have a 45+ hr a week job, a wife and 4 kids and yet I still make time to have everyone have fun playing an effing game.

~MM

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The problem is, it's not fun. Plain and simple. It's not fun when the game's not balanced; It's also not fun when EVERY TIME I asked a rules question I asked you to post it to the thread so that people would know, but yet when PD asks you a question that's kind of important and game-changing, you don't have the courtesy to let me know. If I had known that the GWW abilities didn't transfer, PD would have died last round and the entire game shifts.

quote:

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Originally posted by Zakman86:

The problem is, it's not fun. Plain and simple. It's not fun when the game's not balanced; It's also not fun when EVERY TIME I asked a rules question I asked you to post it to the thread so that people would know, but yet when PD asks you a question that's kind of important and game-changing, you don't have the courtesy to let me know. If I had known that the GWW abilities didn't transfer, PD would have died last round and the entire game shifts.

I'm not interested in playing in games where the teams don't have the same information provided to them, so you won't have to worry about me playing in one of your games again.

---

Nice edit. And that's fine. I just went through PM's you sent me and unfortunately the ones I have only go back to the 10th. However, the ones I do have, you ask me no questions only game type comments.
I do remember one question that you asked me and you said YOU were going to put the answer on the thread. I guess I should have followed up in the case that you didn't, but I didn't, and so that falls on me but whatever dude. I thought better of you Zak, but I guess I was wrong.

~MM

__________________
I am MeddlingMage...YOUR Motl Survivor 11 Champion, 2007 Captain N award winner, 2010 Marlboro award winner.

MafiaBass (9:48:50 PM): sorry my keyboard is sticky
MeddlingEric (9:48:56 PM): ewwww
MafiaBass (9:51:43 PM): FTR, I did not show you my e-pee-pee

quote:

---

Originally posted by MeddlingMage:
Nice edit. And that's fine. I just went through PM's you sent me and unfortunately the ones I have only go back to the 10th. However, the ones I do have, you ask me no questions only game type comments.
I do remember one question that you asked me and you said YOU were going to put the answer on the thread. I guess I should have followed up in the case that you didn't, but I didn't, and so that falls on me but whatever dude. I thought better of you Zak, but I guess I was wrong.

~MM

---

You must have the shortest memory known to man... every question I asked you was on mIRC and I have the logs to prove it at home.

Your major setback this game was the loss of the GWW. If you or Ray (who I assume is the other WW) had been eliminated instead, the crippled seer would have been less helpful to the cits. I freely admit I didn't suspect you much at all until WCFmo announced he had seen you hanging around with Ray in IRC.

I do agree that there are too many positive roles for the cits. They complicate things enormously when hunting for wolves. Yaku's acting kind of cautious, is he a wolf? Oops. Nope he's the hunter. And so forth.

IMO though, what caught you guys was the ability for people to false-claim roles. Maybe YOU should have claimed to be the seer--then you kill me and you look like a cit who made a gambit to save the seer.

I'm sorry you weren't having fun, but a lot of people put a lot of time into this game. It's really not cool to crap on everyone because you aren't enjoying yourself. You could have contacted MM privately and asked for a replacement--the dramatic exit and torching of the game wasn't necessary.

Anyway. The purpose of adding all these roles was to attempt to balance the game after an incredibly long spate of mafia/WW victories. I've maintained all along that it is our MOTL-specific rules departures that unbalance the game and if we played classic WW or mafia we wouldn't need to add a bunch of roles that might upset the balance in the other direction.

IMO-

1. The seer is crippled. Get rid of the elder and restore the seer's powers.

2. Get rid of the ninja mafia/greater WW. We don't need undetectable bad guys to make this game interesting.

3. Ditch the masons. They're fun to be, but they really make the job of finding wolves harder for the cits--they look like wolves.

4. Ditch the hunter. The hunter is a liability... when Yaku killed WCF, we changed the game-end from the R6 NK to the R6 lynch. Had he killed again as folks were suggesting, the game-end would have moved up to the R5 NK... costing the cits a round. That's too much power in the hands of one player.

5. Ditch the mole. This role adds nothing to the game but a loss for a team that has done a good job of defeating the other team. Especially since no matter what his flavor text says, he's going to kill off as many wolves as he can. His victory conditions don't match his flavor.

Anyway, GG guys. Sorry that it ended prematurely. Thank you MM for putting this game together and dealing with all the hiccups expected from so many new roles and rules.

Bugger: I prefer to call it "The democrat maneuver" or "basically what happens when anyone besides Goas posts in the politics thread".

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tranderas:
I don't want anything to do with any game you're a part of PD. Your subtly condescending comments are inappropriate and should have gotten you banned from playing UBB games outright...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tranderas:
I don't want anything to do with any game you're a part of PD. Your subtly condescending comments are inappropriate and should have gotten you banned from playing UBB games outright.

Bugger: I prefer to call it "The democrat maneuver" or "basically what happens when anyone besides Goas posts in the politics thread".

MM + Zak: You're both overreacting, and MM is getting unnecessarily condescending.

---

And your painfully unsubtle arrogance and condescesion is why i refuse to play with you. everyone wins!

quote:

---

Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
Your major setback this game was the loss of the GWW. If you or Ray (who I assume is the other WW) had been eliminated instead, the crippled seer would have been less helpful to the cits. I freely admit I didn't suspect you much at all until WCFmo announced he had seen you hanging around with Ray in IRC.

IMO though, what caught you guys was the ability for people to false-claim roles. Maybe YOU should have claimed to be the seer--then you kill me and you look like a cit who made a gambit to save the seer.

I'm sorry you weren't having fun, but a lot of people put a lot of time into this game. It's really not cool to crap on everyone because you aren't enjoying yourself. You could have contacted MM privately and asked for a replacement--the dramatic exit and torching of the game wasn't necessary.

---

I cut a few paragraphs out of this, because I don't want to comment on them at the moment. I'm not trying to take your things out of context.

You knowing the new Wolf Leader didn't get Gawain's powers completely changed the game because it put the new Wolf Leader (me) on a set of false assumptions while the Seer (which is already the most powerful role in the game, basically) knew exactly what was going on. Nobody should have to guess what the rules are; they should be EXPLICITLY clear as to how the game works.

quote:

---

Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
1. The seer is crippled. Get rid of the elder and restore the seer's powers.

2. Get rid of the ninja mafia/greater WW. We don't need undetectable bad guys to make this game interesting.

3. Ditch the masons. They're fun to be, but they really make the job of finding wolves harder for the cits--they look like wolves.

4. Ditch the hunter. The hunter is a liability... when Yaku killed WCF, we changed the game-end from the R6 NK to the R6 lynch. Had he killed again as folks were suggesting, the game-end would have moved up to the R5 NK... costing the cits a round. That's too much power in the hands of one player.

5. Ditch the mole. This role adds nothing to the game but a loss for a team that has done a good job of defeating the other team. Especially since no matter what his flavor text says, he's going to kill off as many wolves as he can. His victory conditions don't match his flavor.

Anyway, GG guys. Sorry that it ended prematurely. Thank you MM for putting this game together and dealing with all the hiccups expected from so many new roles and rules.

BTW, I'd be up for running the next WW game if anyone is interested. Without me playing Tran might actually play--whatever issues he has with me, he is a decent WW player.[/B]

---

1. I don't agree that the seer's crippled. You have a 1/9 chance of hitting one of the 2 wolves, then a 1/18 chance of hitting the GWW. Yes, you can't TALK to each other about it, but you have 2 chances at hitting Wolves a round until either the GWW is hit or the Seer dies. The Seer can hide where the Elder can't, also. I do agree that the seer should be able to hit all 3 and there should be no Elder.

2. Absolutely agree, though I think that there should be a mafia roleblocker... an anti-doctor, if you will. Make it like the doctor where you can only block a given role once.

3. Agree.

4. I'm OK with a Vig, though I think a Serial Killer-type is better. It needs to be a forced action, not optional. It's too ridiculous otherwise.

5. Agree. With the number of people, the Mole should have been a 4th wolf.

quote:

---

Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
Oh BTW -- reporting on seeing other users in IRC? Not cool.

But people ARE going to monitor who is on IRC and they ARE going to visit the Who's Online page to try and catch people. The safest way for wolves to interact is via Instant Messenger or via e-mail.

---

If the VE gets lynched/killed, there is no way, at all, to find the GW (besides random lynching/guessing). The seer could be alive the entire game, and, after finding the other two wolves, be a completely useless role. It's especially so if one of the power players (IE: Liq, PD), gets that role, as they're pretty much a guaranteed NK within the first two/three rounds (which means only 1/s look(s)...)

@Zak - I don't see how the GW power transfer would have made the game any different. I don't understand why you would have killed PD IF you knew you weren't the GW now. Your logic was saying that PD could only have scryed one of you. Which would have been true regardless of if you had the GW power or not. (Assuming you would NK PD after finding out Thanos wasn't the seer.)

And I do think that, instead of ruining the game for everyone else because you disagreed with the roles/power structure, you should have asked for a replacement.

Thanks,
Jazaray

__________________
A Plastered Dragon Original Limerick:
There was a nice lassie named Jaz
Many wished to have what she has,
A delicate face,
A soft warm embrace,
And a whole lot of bedroom pizzazz.

WeedIan: Jazaray is like MOTL's Mom.

@ Tran, sorry you think I'm condescending but seeing as how I was the one running the game at the time, that kind of makes me the person who is "in charge" for the time being.
If that makes me condescending so be it.

Edit:@ Zak when I pm'ed you that you were the new wolf leader, did it say new Greater Werewolf? No it said wolf leader. Sorry you took it that way.

Village Elder should be cut, but I just wanted to try it out. Seer will have all powers again in future games.

~MM

__________________
I am MeddlingMage...YOUR Motl Survivor 11 Champion, 2007 Captain N award winner, 2010 Marlboro award winner.

MafiaBass (9:48:50 PM): sorry my keyboard is sticky
MeddlingEric (9:48:56 PM): ewwww
MafiaBass (9:51:43 PM): FTR, I did not show you my e-pee-pee

quote:

---

Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
Tran, you really need to get past your need to be the smartest person in the room. It makes you look like a big crybaby half the time. I mean seriously, I gave you multiple opportunities to not look like an ass. Grow up.

---

Finally stopped hiding behind your "i'm more clever than you" anecdotes and made a blunt insult... at least you're trying, and I'm proud of you for that. Old dogs, new tricks, etc.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jazaray:
@Zak - I don't see how the GW power transfer would have made the game any different. I don't understand why you would have killed PD IF you knew you weren't the GW now. Your logic was saying that PD could only have scryed one of you. Which would have been true regardless of if you had the GW power or not. (Assuming you would NK PD after finding out Thanos wasn't the seer.)

Thanks,
Jazaray

---

I suspected that PD was the seer. Here was what the plan would have been if I was unscryable (assuming I don't get lynched of course).

Kill Thanos
Sow confusion and get someone else lynched (prob. Bernek or OGB or fwy)
Lynch another confirmed Cit (again, not PD)

~MM

__________________
I am MeddlingMage...YOUR Motl Survivor 11 Champion, 2007 Captain N award winner, 2010 Marlboro award winner.

MafiaBass (9:48:50 PM): sorry my keyboard is sticky
MeddlingEric (9:48:56 PM): ewwww
MafiaBass (9:51:43 PM): FTR, I did not show you my e-pee-pee

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zakman86:
I suspected that PD was the seer. Here was what the plan would have been if I was unscryable (assuming I don't get lynched of course).

Kill Thanos
Sow confusion and get someone else lynched (prob. Bernek or OGB or fwy)
Lynch another confirmed Cit (again, not PD)

If PD can't tell who is actually a WW, it makes a VERY large difference in terms of strategy.

---

Then I don't see how you can say that having the seer role split into two makes it a much better chance/more powerful, when you were planning to use the fact that it's more of a liability to just leave PD alive and create confusion. Taking advantage of the fact that the seer role is NOT as powerful as it used to be.

I have to admit, I too didn't really care for the role of the Mole (hee hee, rhymes!)

@Trand and PD: Don't make me send you both to your rooms. I like you BOTH and think you're BOTH wrong about each other. Knock it off or there WILL be spankings next.

Thanks,
Jazaray

__________________
A Plastered Dragon Original Limerick:
There was a nice lassie named Jaz
Many wished to have what she has,
A delicate face,
A soft warm embrace,
And a whole lot of bedroom pizzazz.

WeedIan: Jazaray is like MOTL's Mom.

quote:

---

Originally posted by MeddlingMage:
Jaz, please close this 1 so we can continue on the new

~MM

---

Uhh. Heh.

Thanks,
Jazaray

__________________
A Plastered Dragon Original Limerick:
There was a nice lassie named Jaz
Many wished to have what she has,
A delicate face,
A soft warm embrace,
And a whole lot of bedroom pizzazz.

WeedIan: Jazaray is like MOTL's Mom.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zakman86:
You knowing the new Wolf Leader didn't get Gawain's powers completely changed the game because it put the new Wolf Leader (me) on a set of false assumptions while the Seer (which is already the most powerful role in the game, basically) knew exactly what was going on. Nobody should have to guess what the rules are; they should be EXPLICITLY clear as to how the game works.

---

Okay Zak, but this bit more people than just you. I was counting on the angel being able to protect a person over and over until it resulted in an actual save. Only after I had put a plan into action did MM inform me it wasn't going to work like that.

I was irritated, but MM's only human. We're all only human and there are always going to be hiccups. As noted earlier--I chalked it up to this being an experimental game. Basically a "figure it out as we go along" scenario. Sure that means someone will get burned here or there, but it's only for this game while we get the wrinkles hammered out. We have to be at least somewhat realistic as to what we can expect and make sure that we ask questions about everything, even things we think we are sure of.