Vigilante:
-can only be active during R2,3,or 4.
-can only be active once per game, but may not be
-it is randomly determined in a weighted fashion if there will be a vigilante for the round
-the vigilante takes out one person. If that person has a role (good or bad), the vigilante also is taken out. The flavor makes more sense in context.

How does anyone else feel about the current state of WW?

I also wanna get with PD on those W-L records to see how unbalanced(if at all) the game is.

~MM

__________________
I am MeddlingMage...YOUR Motl Survivor 11 Champion and 2007 Captain N award winner, and I approve this siggy!

~MM

__________________
I am MeddlingMage...YOUR Motl Survivor 11 Champion and 2007 Captain N award winner, and I approve this siggy!

__________________
How many times do I have to have sex with your mom before you realize we have something special.

~MM

__________________
I am MeddlingMage...YOUR Motl Survivor 11 Champion and 2007 Captain N award winner, and I approve this siggy!

quote:

---

Originally posted by MeddlingMage:
Well also back in the day, mafia/WW's didn't vote, and so pile analysis and math did the game in.

~MM

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MagicMystic:
That was the big one.

---

You need more emphasis.

That was THE big one.

~MM

__________________
I am MeddlingMage...YOUR Motl Survivor 11 Champion and 2007 Captain N award winner, and I approve this siggy!

quote:

---

Originally posted by MeddlingMage:
Well also back in the day, mafia/WW's didn't vote, and so pile analysis and math did the game in.

~MM

---

Whoa whoa whoa, wait....WHAT?!

Bernek, it all depends on context. One game, a while back, I played in and the cits had absolutely no unity, and won because the mafia didn't have piles to use and also didn't wanna vote together. We bagged the mafia twice with only like 2 or 3 votes because the votes were all spread out. People were fairly level headed, kept their votes (even if that person wasn't necessarily getting lynched) and it worked out.

Yeah, and this whole thing about voting in a bandwagon because your main suspect isn't a lynch candidate is bogus, IMO. You vote for who you vote for. This isn't the presidential elections - you don't HAVE to vote for the 2 biggest lynch candidates. I have always been one to keep my vote on who I feel is the scummiest. A lot of people find that extremely unuseful, and dangerous because I stay outside the piles, but MORE people stockpiling into bandwagons instead of voting who they think is scummy only helps the wolves.
Again, just some more personal game theory.
/end rant

I have seen games where there is a One-Shot or Two-Shot vigilante. He gets one or two bullets and has to use them wisely, and can only use one per night, but on any night.

Vigilante is an EXTREMELY swingy character. I was vigilante once and actually killed 2 wolves MYSELF on the first 2 nights. Having a one-shot or two-shot vig, although town oriented, can be a downfall for the cits if someone doesn't know how to use the role properly (like shooting the day before lynch or lose would come up, losing the game for the cits), however it creates more known entities during the night phase, giving people more to talk about.

However, to counteract the swinginess of a One or Two Shot Vigilante, I would suggest adding a mafia RBer - a mafia member who, send a name in one night and that persons role gets blocked - AKA if he choose the cop, doc, or vigilante, that person's night action fails.

However, if any changes need to be brought about, still think what I said earlier about claiming and such needs to be instilled, especially because that would be 3 town roles that nobody else could claim, giving the cits 3 known entities right off the bat if they claim (again, not likely but trying to prove a point)

quote:

---

Originally posted by ryan2754:
Yeah, Gawain, back in the day, Liq broke the game by figuring out statistically how to orient piles so that a citizen or two got cleared each round if they weren't lynched. Since mafia members didn't get ACTUAL votes, just declared votes, you make them vote a certain way. Since their votes didn't count, you could see who got lynched. For example, if 2 mafia are left and there are 9 players, make three 3-person piles. In essence, if a mafia is in each of two of the piles, the third pile would be the citizen killed. You could then preseumably clear those individuals. It was amazing how it happened, and that game I was giving Liq a bunch of ****, and I flared up saying this is my last ever game (it's archived as the last game of mafia), and then he broke it, and I apologized.

---

What was amazing is that we ended up lynching 3 of 4 Mafia members in a row for the 2nd ever Clean Sweep. 4th member was revealed by the Cop.

I like Josh's idea for a viligante.

Also I want to consider the idea for a deputy but without a reveal possibility. Like he'd get 1/2 of the notes rounded down.

quote:

---

Originally posted by MeddlingMage:
I don't really remember what we came up with, but I was thinking along the lines of the following.

If the Cop dies, before "passing his notes" to the Deputy, then the info is lost. The Deputy will not know he is the Deputy, until the cop contacts me, and I PM him the information. The deputy would not ask for future names, b/c then he might as well be Cop #2. If the Deputy is killed before his identity is revealed, then his identity will never be known, having the Wolves/mafia still have to worry about him in some form.

There was even talk of like the Deputy learning part of the Cop's notes. Like if the Cop has say, 3 guesses at that point of his death, the Deputy would "stumble" upon part of his notes. The Deputy would choose a number, in this case between 1 and 3.

Let's say the Cop's notes go like this:
Jazaray - villager
XplicitR - villager
PlasteredDragon - werewolf

If the cop chooses #2 then he gets that information. If that particular player is dead, then no additional help this round.

Remember this idea is kind of in its infancy, just some ideas to float around.

@PD, do you happen to have the W-L record for the first bunch of WW games?

~MM

---

__________________
I am MeddlingMage...YOUR Motl Survivor 11 Champion and 2007 Captain N award winner, and I approve this siggy!

~MM

__________________
I am MeddlingMage...YOUR Motl Survivor 11 Champion and 2007 Captain N award winner, and I approve this siggy!

quote:

---

Originally posted by ryan2754:
Vigilante is an EXTREMELY swingy character. I was vigilante once and actually killed 2 wolves MYSELF on the first 2 nights. Having a one-shot or two-shot vig, although town oriented, can be a downfall for the cits if someone doesn't know how to use the role properly (like shooting the day before lynch or lose would come up, losing the game for the cits), however it creates more known entities during the night phase, giving people more to talk about.

However, to counteract the swinginess of a One or Two Shot Vigilante, I would suggest adding a mafia RBer - a mafia member who, send a name in one night and that persons role gets blocked - AKA if he choose the cop, doc, or vigilante, that person's night action fails.

---

I think the Vig can be less swingy and more protown with just a small bit of skill. If a player is not fully confident of his Vig strategy, he functions as lurker cleanup. This is easy to do and very helpful to the town. If the Vig role lands in the hands of an expert, it can cause serious damage to the scumteam. Either way, if the Vig only has 1-2 shots, the course of the game isn't going to be altered in any incredibly drastic manner.

If the cop/seer nabs a bad guy in the same round the bad guy want to NK the cop/seer, the cop/seer puts up a fight and both those players die.

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoshSherman:
ooh ooh ooh, I just had a good one:

If the cop/seer nabs a bad guy in the same round the bad guy want to NK the cop/seer, the cop/seer puts up a fight and both those players die.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MagicMystic:
Would give the cop too much incentive to reveal, as there's a decent chance he reveals and takes someone out with him.

---

Hadn't thought of that. I wasn't thinking about the cop having revealed. Would this be interesting if for it to be in effect the cop couldn't have revealed?

quote:

---

Vigilante:
-can not reveal his/her role at any time.
-can only be active during R2,3,or 4.
-can only be active once per game, but may not be.
-it is randomly determined in a weighted fashion if there will be a vigilante for the round.
-if the vigilante takes out one person, the vigilante also is taken out.

---

In considering the vigilante role:

- Would the role be asigned at the beginning like any other role? (another non-reveal role)
Edit : Should the citizen be informed that s/he is the vigilante? or should it wait until the action is actived (if it is)?
- - If this person should die, would it transfer? (without public notification)
- Or would it be just a random assignment to a citizen should the role be used that round?

Edit : If the Vigilante is chosen to be actived, could he decide to suspend his action that round and use it next round?
Edit : If the Vigilante and the Mafia chose the same target, who gets priority? If the Mafia does, should we allow the vigilante a 2nd chance? That round or the next?

Also concerning the doctor role:

- Should the doctor be able to 'save' the person that the vigilante targeted?
- - Should it be limited to saving citizens only?
- - or should he be able to save Mafia too?
- If the doctor is able to 'save' someone, should the vigilante have another round perhaps?
- Should the doctor 'save' the viligante target, should the vigilante survive the round?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Liq:
Next 3 games of Mafia will have the viligante role. Nothing new in order to give the variant a good test run.

In considering the viligante role:

- Would the role be asigned at the beginning like any other role? (another non-reveal role) [b]Yes
- - If this person should die, would it transfer? (without public notification) No, he dies, he IS the vigilante, and is gone from the game, just like any other role
- Or would it be just a random assignment to a citizen should the role be used that round?Again, no. Pick the vigilante just like mafia/doc/seer, as he is a power role like them

Also concerning the doctor role:

- Should the doctor be able to 'save' the person that the viligante targeted?Yes
- - Should it be limited to saving citizens only?No. Makes for very compelling scenarios
- - or should he be able to save Mafia too?Yes
- If the doctor is able to 'save' someone, should the viligante have another round perhaps?No.
- Should the doctor 'save' the viligante target, should the viligante survive the round?Don't understand what you mean by this - like if the doc saves the Vig target, and the Vig gets chosen by the mafia, does he still die? In that case, yes. Also, say he shoots the same night the mafia targets him - some mods say he gets his kill, others say he doesn't, depending on the order of night actions

[/B]

---

Again, I am weary to use this role, unless he is a One-or-Two shot Vigilante with the current game. Also, what about the Vigilante revealing? Seeing as we are currently playing where people cannot counterclaim roles like the cop and such, this seems like just a role where someone uses there ability once, then outs themselves, and thus becomes a free confirmed cit.

I wanna play just to see how it works out, but I feel more details regarding revealing/fake-claiming should be hammered out first.

AGM, I understand where you are coming from, but adding a town PR that can or cannot be swingy depending on how they use their power definitely needs to be counteracted in some manner, and the easiest way I see it is with RBer, however, again, completely dependant on whether or not fake-claims are allowed.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zakman86:
Make Vig a non-claimable role. Mission accomplished.

I also think it shouldn't be given out until after NK0, for flavor reasons.

---

Well they are given the role, but can't make a NK on N0. That's usually often the case.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ryan2754:
Well they are given the role, but can't make a NK on N0. That's usually often the case.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ryan2754:
- Should the doctor 'save' the viligante target, should the viligante survive the round?
Don't understand what you mean by this - like if the doc saves the Vig target, and the Vig gets chosen by the mafia, does he still die? In that case, yes. Also, say he shoots the same night the mafia targets him - some mods say he gets his kill, others say he doesn't, depending on the order of night actions

---

I like Josh's idea for the vigilante so thats what I'm going to use. But if the vigiliante is used, he goes with whatever target he choses.

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoshSherman:
Vigilante:
-can only be active during R2,3,or 4.
-can only be active once per game, but may not be
-it is randomly determined in a weighted fashion if there will be a vigilante for the round
-the vigilante takes out one person. If that person has a role (good or bad), the vigilante also is taken out. The flavor makes more sense in context.

---

What I meant was instead of a double kill of the Vigilante and his target, we would have the Vigilante survive should the doctor save his target.