Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong ,as I really don't know much at all about Mafiascum, so I'm making some assumptions that are based on the limited info I have.

I suspect part of the reason for the game being "lost in translation" is that the playgroup is pretty small here, so we're playing with fairly known quantities, versus a bunch of people just jumping into a game with strangers and what-not. We see constant references to what player Y did 3 rounds ago and looking at player X's history to see what they usually do in certain situations.

I'm curious what kind of timeframe that Mafiascum uses. My guess is that the days and nights aren't nearly as long there, which really does drastically change how the game is played.

All in all, yes, sure there has been a matter of luck involved in why the Cits have had struggles, but I don't buy that the game here is balanced even without that. We've seen so many iterations of this game, and the Cits have always had a relatively low win percentage, only really having success at the end of the original Mafia structure where the game was mathematically broken. Just because things work well elsewhere, we seem to have a fairly unique playgroup here that makes things not work the way that you think they would based on other forms of the game.

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quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
I'm curious what kind of timeframe that Mafiascum uses. My guess is that the days and nights aren't nearly as long there, which really does drastically change how the game is played.

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The timeframe is weeks per round which can go well into more than a month if the majority can't be met. There is plenty of time to view the decisions people make and for the citizens to talk it all out to figure out who has what role.

quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
Ryan, the big picture you're missing is that this is NOT Mafiascum. It's already been pointed out that the two really don't translate at all, despite the seemingly similar structure of the games.

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Scumtells don't translate because people have different styles here. This doesn't mean we couldn't adopt some of Mafiascum's rules and see how they work.

quote:

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Originally posted by nder:
I suspect part of the reason for the game being "lost in translation" is that the playgroup is pretty small here, so we're playing with fairly known quantities, versus a bunch of people just jumping into a game with strangers and what-not. We see constant references to what player Y did 3 rounds ago and looking at player X's history to see what they usually do in certain situations.

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People do that on mafiascum all the time. It is referred to as "meta." Also, although there are many more players, you will still end up playing with the same people with startling frequency (even if it's not the EXACT same group over and over).

quote:

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Originally posted by nder:
I'm curious what kind of timeframe that Mafiascum uses. My guess is that the days and nights aren't nearly as long there, which really does drastically change how the game is played.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dakrum:
The timeframe is weeks per round which can go well into more than a month if the majority can't be met. There is plenty of time to view the decisions people make and for the citizens to talk it all out to figure out who has what role.

The problem is that most of the players here work for a living. Having a round that lasts for two weeks is just going to quickly spell the end of the UBB games here because MOTL isn't getting new members right now and Magic isn't the game it was ten years ago. There has to be a solid middle ground where you get the cits talking while forcing the action.

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Interesting, I had assumed it would be shorter as people are there specifically to play the games, so they had more of a commitment to be active. I think it still holds true that the vast difference in the length of a round can really change how things play out.

quote:

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Originally posted by AlmasterGM:
I'm not sure if this long of a game setup would actually work on MOTL or not, though. It would have to be discussed.

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Given the number of people who have asked to be replaced lately due to things coming up, having extra-long days seems like a really really bad idea here.
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quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
Ryan, the big picture you're missing is that this is NOT Mafiascum. It's already been pointed out that the two really don't translate at all, despite the seemingly similar structure of the games.

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quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
I suspect part of the reason for the game being "lost in translation" is that the playgroup is pretty small here, so we're playing with fairly known quantities, versus a bunch of people just jumping into a game with strangers and what-not. We see constant references to what player Y did 3 rounds ago and looking at player X's history to see what they usually do in certain situations.

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quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
I'm curious what kind of timeframe that Mafiascum uses. My guess is that the days and nights aren't nearly as long there, which really does drastically change how the game is played.

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quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
All in all, yes, sure there has been a matter of luck involved in why the Cits have had struggles, but I don't buy that the game here is balanced even without that.

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quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
Just because things work well elsewhere, we seem to have a fairly unique playgroup here that makes things not work the way that you think they would based on other forms of the game.

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Sure, we have a fairly unique playgroup, but you said it yourself, the game is unbalanced. Mafiascum uses a variety of setups (mafia:town:neutral) that must be approved, and they seem to be doing well. Why not try and steal a few of their ideas to bring into our games here? Not all, hell there's way too many subtle nuances between the two sites, but a few, to make the game more balanced.
Again, you said it yourself that the game is currently unbalanced, so why not try to balance it with something that it relatively tried and true?

quote:

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Originally posted by ryan2754:
Fair enough - you still don't think the game is balanced. Thus, don't you think it's time for a change? You seem to be agreeing with me on that point.

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I never said that the game shouldn't be changed. I said (and explained why) the proposed changes seem to make things worse for the Cits, not better, thus it would be tipping the scales the wrong direction. IMO, any changes that would be made should help fix the balance, not make it worse.

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quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
Given the number of people who have asked to be replaced lately due to things coming up, having extra-long days seems like a really really bad idea here.

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And AGM totally brought something to my mind - he is right, the days are as long as the town wants. I have had a 2 nights and 1 day span last 1 RL day before, because we lynched the cop claim, he was cop, they killed one of his confirmed cits, and we lynched his confirmed mafioso all in a span of a day, because it was fairly obvious what was going to transpire. So there are situations where days are drastically shortened. It also eliminates the whole "Mod shortening the day thing if everyone is on the same page" dilemma - when a majority is made, the day ENDS (and the thread is closed, so people don't converse during the night - definitely makes the flavor coalesce better too, as everyone in town is sleeping except mafia doing their hits/cop investigating, doc protecting, etc. - whereas here, people talk during the night, and mafioso talk together, it would be noticed). Again, small point but yeah.

EDIT: Like I said, you would be relatively surprised at how much something that seems to tip the scales into the mafia's hands can help the cits. Not to mention, the unlimited protection of Cop by Doc and Doc being able to reveal his protections helps a lot, too (especially if Doc DOES get someone protected - he can tell who it was [another way of confirming cithood]).

quote:

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Originally posted by ryan2754:
Actually, it usually improves the situation. Longer days gives people a greater chance of catching up if something comes up in RL, at least in my experience. Say someone has a work deadline on a Friday. Deadlines are usually done on Thursdays. Thus, they can miss one complete round by the RL issue. If the days are lengthened, that gives the person a chance to catch up and post meaningful stuff rather than "Sorry busy" for that round.

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People don't need to be replaced because they might miss a round. They are replaced because of extended absences. The longer the game runs, the greater the chance that something's going to get in the way.

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Seriously, do we need to just double up the cit roles so that we have A CHANCE of getting one past round 2? I think the last game where things didn't go horribly wrong from the start was Mafia7. I know it's luck, but wow.

How does the Vigilante work?

Other possibilities:

Masons - Players who know eachother to be protown and can communicate via PM just like the mafia. This role can be interesting, but it usually just ends up becoming a couple of free cop investigations and some endgame mathematics.

Roleblocker - Prevents a player from using their role at night. This works both for and against the town - if the Doctor or Cop is targeted, it's bad, but if the mafia leader is caught, not only is there no NK, but the Roleblocker will have discovered the identity of the mafia leader.

Backup - Takes over the position of Cop or Doctor when that player is killed.

After R1, GM rolls a die. If it's a 6, there's a vigilante this round. If not, GM rolls after R2. If that's a 6 or a 5, there's a vigilante. Lather, rinse, repeat, but there is only one vigilante round per game

One in round 2, an additional in round 5? Gives wolves time to eliminate them as well.

I actually wouldn't mind seeing more minor roles added. It would let people do something useful beyond scumhunt (I know I at least felt a little useless last game).

~MM

EDIT:
Backup - Takes over the position of Cop or Doctor when that player is killed.

I made mention of a deputy type character waaaaay back when.

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quote:

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Originally posted by MeddlingMage:

EDIT:
Backup - Takes over the position of Cop or Doctor when that player is killed.

I made mention of a deputy type character waaaaay back when.

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Would they have access to the previous cops/docs actions? Cop/doctors notes left in their mailbox? Because if not, if could end up as 3 rounds of waste.

If the Cop dies, before "passing his notes" to the Deputy, then the info is lost. The Deputy will not know he is the Deputy, until the cop contacts me, and I PM him the information. The deputy would not ask for future names, b/c then he might as well be Cop #2. If the Deputy is killed before his identity is revealed, then his identity will never be known, having the Wolves/mafia still have to worry about him in some form.

There was even talk of like the Deputy learning part of the Cop's notes. Like if the Cop has say, 3 guesses at that point of his death, the Deputy would "stumble" upon part of his notes. The Deputy would choose a number, in this case between 1 and 3.

Let's say the Cop's notes go like this:
Jazaray - villager
XplicitR - villager
PlasteredDragon - werewolf

If the cop chooses #2 then he gets that information. If that particular player is dead, then no additional help this round.

Remember this idea is kind of in its infancy, just some ideas to float around.

@PD, do you happen to have the W-L record for the first bunch of WW games?

~MM

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quote:

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Originally posted by MeddlingMage:
@PD, do you happen to have the W-L record for the first bunch of WW games?

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quote:

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Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MeddlingMage:
@PD, do you happen to have the W-L record for the first bunch of WW games?

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[/QUOTE]

I'm curious of the Won-Loss record in WW's vs villagers.
You know like the Wolves are 9-2 overall, or whatever, so we can see if an additional role is really necessary.

That's why I <3 you Chuck!

~MM

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