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Originally posted by Liq:
Small Town USA.
Modern Times or Gangster Era (1920's/1930's).

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Milkman.

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Originally posted by Liq:
Small Town USA.
Modern Times or Gangster Era (1920's/1930's).

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A grip of possibilities to choose from would be nice to have.

Speakeasy Owner

Police Captain
Detective

Dock Worker
Seamstress
Labor Organizer
Factory Worker
Factory Owner
Milkman
Farmer

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Originally posted by Montague:
No love for accountants?

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Originally posted by PlasteredDragon:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Montague:
No love for accountants?

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Originally posted by Montague:
Are you trying to say that Accountants are boring PD?

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Originally posted by AlmasterGM:
Just saw this thread article and discussion thread on mafiascum about how to analyze nightkills. I was quite interesting (if you like mafia theory), and since games here have a night start and the NK is often a starting ground for discussion, I thought it would be applicable to repost.

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Thanks for the link - I actually wasn't too worried about the NKs for the game I was in until I read this - pretty darn insightful if you ask me.

So, I propose that there be a small amount of communication allowed in the villagers/citizens/motlers side of things. I think that either the Cop should be allowed to contact and communicate with citizens as he clears their names, or that the cop and the doctor should be allowed to communicate.

Let's face it, the Cits have lost EVERY GAME for the past several, and the last two were clean sweeps by the baddies. To put this in perspective, I am a semi-experienced player, and had never been a baddie before; Tran is very smart, but not very experienced in UBB games, and OGB is pretty new as well. We completely swept the boards, and aside from a few tense moments, we did it with a fair bit of ease.

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Originally posted by Gawain:
I think that either the Cop should be allowed to contact and communicate with citizens as he clears their names, or that the cop and the doctor should be allowed to communicate.

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Josh had proposed that the cop should be able to talk to their investigations in the ZC, but I think that it turns the role into a mason-maker as there is practically no incentive for the cop to actually scry mafia. With Josh's rules of "anybody posing as anybody", finding the cop round 2 and beyond essentially becomes finding a needle in one of two haystacks. I don't think the balance would entirely tip the other way unless they got lucky and the game should almost never boil down to pure luck.

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Originally posted by dakrum:
Josh had proposed that the cop should be able to talk to their investigations in the ZC, but I think that it turns the role into a mason-maker as there is practically no incentive for the cop to actually scry mafia. With Josh's rules of "anybody posing as anybody", finding the cop round 2 and beyond essentially becomes finding a needle in one of two haystacks. I don't think the balance would entirely tip the other way unless they got lucky and the game should almost never boil down to pure luck.

If that was going to happen, I think you have to limit it to one mason-making investigation only or just create a group of three masons right off the bat so that the mafia have to try to react to an identity that can react back immediately. I think we should look for a 50/50-ish balance and find something that promotes skill and always encourages players to get better.

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I don't know what Masons are, I'll have to read up on it. I don't really care what we do, we just need to do something, or the Cits are just gonna keep getting screwed.

Gangster Era (circa mid 1920's) - Seems to general consenus.

Also, from the time I started playing/watching last October until now, the doctor has made Zero saves. Obviously useful if he actually makes a save (+1 round), it doesn't happen nearly enough to come into play ever. At least the cop has a 3/X chance to identify mafia, while with the doctor it is less than 1/X, because if he chooses to save mafia he automatically wasted his round. Maybe for rounds 1-3, let him attempt to save 2 names??

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Originally posted by thror:
Also, from the time I started playing/watching last October until now, the doctor has made Zero saves. Obviously useful if he actually makes a save (+1 round), it doesn't happen nearly enough to come into play ever. At least the cop has a 3/X chance to identify mafia, while with the doctor it is less than 1/X, because if he chooses to save mafia he automatically wasted his round. Maybe for rounds 1-3, let him attempt to save 2 names??

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What I've noticed in the past few rounds about doctors are two huge fundamental mistakes:

1) They are immediately choosing who to save instead of waiting until the night phase action has ended (this is risky but the reward is high).
2) They aren't making an attempt to save the cop during the critical rounds (or the cop dies before then).

Once the cop reveals, the chance of a doctor getting a save skyrockets. In regular mafia games, the doctor is the most important cit role of all because they can make saves from TWO entities - but in this game they only have to make saves from one entity. Doctors shouldn't be playing this game for the "right now" - they should be playing it for the later rounds.

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Originally posted by dakrum:

What I've noticed in the past few rounds about doctors are two huge fundamental mistakes:

1) They are immediately choosing who to save instead of waiting until the night phase action has ended (this is risky but the reward is high).
2) They aren't making an attempt to save the cop during the critical rounds (or the cop dies before then).

Once the cop reveals, the chance of a doctor getting a save skyrockets. In regular mafia games, the doctor is the most important cit role of all because they can make saves from TWO entities - but in this game they only have to make saves from one entity. Doctors shouldn't be playing this game for the "right now" - they should be playing it for the later rounds.

In the past few games, I can count 3 effortless doctor saves.

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Could you point them out? I've felt for some time that the Doctor is (as currently formatted) a next to useless role. I have seen plenty of very, very good/intelligent players saddled with the role, and as was mentioned earlier, a doctor hasn't gotten a save in as long as I can remember.

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Originally posted by Gawain:
Could you point them out? I've felt for some time that the Doctor is (as currently formatted) a next to useless role. I have seen plenty of very, very good/intelligent players saddled with the role, and as was mentioned earlier, a doctor hasn't gotten a save in as long as I can remember.

I think that an interesting change would be if the Doctor and Cop start off knowing who each other are, and can communicate. As the Cop starts clearing names, the Doctor gets a better idea of who to try and save and who not to bother with.

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I stand corrected on two accounts - I think the first NK after OGB revealed PD, MW, and Gawain in the one mafia game probably shouldn't count (that was the 3rd I was referring to). I thought that you were the best option, but I don't think it should count because it's not an easy choice. Keep in mind that if XplicitR went with the flow and NKed OGB, there would have been a doctor save.

The second correction is that they aren't effortless picks. I apologize for my terrible usage of language and implication that the players of this game aren't incredibly smart.

The two examples I have in mind are these:

Mafia 11 nightkill two: OGB
MOTLS nightkill four: dakrum

Those were easy picks considering the information that was available, but they were only easy picks if you waited to send in the name. Truthfully, I think we should come to a conclusion about how we should or shouldn't talk during the night phases.

The biggest problem I have with letting the cop and doctor communicate with each other is this - you have to throw the ability of the doctor to save the cop away because once the cop reaches round two safely, the cits have a huge advantage. The cop will almost certainly reach round three due to the save and the cits might possibly learn the identities of FIVE players. I don't know if I like adding a feature that could completely sway the balance in the other direction.

My logic is this: Since the communication was used within a game, it belongs to the person who ran the game, to do with as he wishes.

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Originally posted by Liq:
Any other role suggestions before the start of the new game?

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Originally posted by dakrum:

Those were easy picks considering the information that was available, but they were only easy picks if you waited to send in the name. Truthfully, I think we should come to a conclusion about how we should or shouldn't talk during the night phases.

The biggest problem I have with letting the cop and doctor communicate with each other is this - you have to throw the ability of the doctor to save the cop away because once the cop reaches round two safely, the cits have a huge advantage. The cop will almost certainly reach round three due to the save and the cits might possibly learn the identities of FIVE players. I don't know if I like adding a feature that could completely sway the balance in the other direction.

If you remove that stipulation, I like the idea.

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I agree that an out of game consensus regarding whether Cits should speak during a night phase or not is a good idea. I for one think that it's not necessarily bad for Cits to do so, but that if they do, it might be best for many if not all of them to do it, or none at all. When only one or two people speak up, it's too easy for the baddies to manipulate what they say to better position themselves for the coming rounds.

I agree that the doctor/cop communication could swing things too far in favor of the Cits, but bear in mind that the game you mentioned in which PD, myself and MW were all revealed as Cits, we thought we had gained a serious advantage from the Cop reveal, and ended up losing anyway.

If the Seer has not revealed him/her self AND is NightKilled, they may reveal the identity of ONE player they scryed. (Flavor - spiritual visit or whatever)