quote:

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Originally posted by dakrum:
Josh had proposed that the cop should be able to talk to their investigations in the ZC, but I think that it turns the role into a mason-maker as there is practically no incentive for the cop to actually scry mafia.

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I guess I should have addressed this a while ago. There is always incentive for the mod to IP check mafia. I have no idea what you're talking about.

The full suggestion was that the mod be able send a message to those he's IP'd, which would go through the GM first (and be sent once per round at the time the latest hacking is announced). There would be absolutely no direct contact, and in this scenario there's no need for the cleared GD members to know who each other are or to know who the mod is. Even if the GD regulars know each other's identity (but not the mod's), they aren't allowed to contact each other directly via PM.

quote:

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Originally posted by JoshSherman:
I guess I should have addressed this a while ago. There is always incentive for the mod to IP check mafia. I have no idea what you're talking about.

The full suggestion was that the mod be able send a message to those he's IP'd, which would go through the GM first (and be sent once per round at the time the latest hacking is announced). There would be absolutely no direct contact, and in this scenario there's no need for the cleared GD members to know who each other are or to know who the mod is. Even if the GD regulars know each other's identity (but not the mod's), they aren't allowed to contact each other directly via PM.

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Sorry, I must have confused the daylights out of your idea then.

I was under the impression that the GM would contact the IPed players and allow them full communication with the mod - thus, essentially turning a cit IP into a mason. In this fashion, the mod would rarely want to search for mafia because being able to create a voting block or sway the populace as needed would be considerably stronger.

You are saying that there is no communication allowed at all except for once a round (and it's a one-way message). I understand that now and it makes sense with the rules put into place during the MOTLS game.

Summertime proves to be a busier time than normal, and participation suffers.

This will also serve as a "cooling off period"

Any questions/comments about games should be addressed to nder, Liq or myself.

~MM

__________________
I am MeddlingMage...YOUR Motl Survivor 11 Champion and 2007 Captain N award winner.

quote:

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Originally posted by MeddlingMage:
After discussion with nderdog, we believe that we should not have any games for at least June, if not longer.

Summertime proves to be a busier time than normal, and participation suffers.

This will also serve as a "cooling off period"

Any questions/comments about games should be addressed to nder, Liq or myself.

~MM

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Yeah people, cool off... I want a nice relaxed game when (if) I come back. :P

Have we decided to keep the vigilante option, rejuggle the percentages of players, or do anything else to help the cits out?

And finally, on a note that is of no relevance whatsoever, I completely hallucinated for a minute and thought July 4th had passed already and was wondering where the next mafia thread was.

__________________
OGB: If I'm paying $8.00 for a Revised Disk, it better come with a reach around.

A few choice nuggets from the last game to give an example of stuff that is absolutely positively unacceptable:

I think you are a pain in the butt to play with.

Furthermore your posts are a miasma of self conflicting and poorly thought out concepts, and they are excruciating to read because each one is like a declaration of war on the English language.

Feel free to clue up any time fwy.

I felt it was alot better with out you in it...no long meaningless and demeaning posts from you was a change for the better...

I bet in a crowd you are the loudest one with nothing to say....sad...

You have done nothing this game to provide anyone of anything usefull but to come into this game with your attitude is just plain childish...

And please Gawain, as if you have any say in anything. You try and bandwagon and talk like you know so much about the game but you are no better than anyone else.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Thanos:
With all the rudeness, animosity towards others, and "cliques" going on in these two games, I think they should just be shut down altogether.

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quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
A few choice nuggets from the last game to give an example of stuff that is absolutely positively unacceptable:

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There isn't anything wrong with most of those, so you might as well shut the games down for good.

quote:

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Originally posted by JoshSherman:
There isn't anything wrong with most of those, so you might as well shut the games down for good.

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So you really think it's fine to be a complete crapweasel for no good reason? Seriously?

__________________
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All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

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just some peoples attitudes are to serious for such a game...

I know we have lost most games but i continue to play cuz it WAS fun....I have totally changed my style of play in regards to attitude but maybe im not the sharpest knife in the drawer but hey...atleast i participate...

and I made points in regards to posting style to change the view of a post to make it not so demeaning like adding () smilies lol girl with pony tails is always funny

quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
So you really think it's fine to be a complete crapweasel for no good reason? Seriously?

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I'm actually taking Josh's side on this. Some of what you posted as examples of "positively unacceptable" behavior isn't even as bad as comments that get thrown around in the PfS.

__________________
"Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die!"

quote:

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Originally posted by inigomontoya:
I think the problem with most of the comments that nder posted is that they either don't pertain to the game, or in the case of the comments that can be construed as being about someone's playstyles, don't advance the game at all. Pretty much the only thing any of the comments is going to do is invite a counter-attack which will just bring the game down.

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Exactly. Every single one is nothing but a personal attack, and there isn't a reasonable excuse for any of those comments to have been made.

__________________
There's no need to fear, UNDERDOG is here!

All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

Report rules violations.

quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
Exactly. Every single one is nothing but a personal attack, and there isn't a reasonable excuse for any of those comments to have been made.

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I think that in general, the game has gone from what it was intended to be, which is a competitive but friendly intellectual exercise, to something at times unpleasant in the form of an occasional and unnecessary ****ing contest.

Let's just agree to reconvene at the end of June or the beginning of July, hammer out the mechanical changes we wanna make to the game, and call it a day.

I know that it isn't good because I've already screwed it up myself, but comments like that belong somewhere else.

~MM

__________________
I am MeddlingMage...YOUR Motl Survivor 11 Champion and 2007 Captain N award winner.

quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
Exactly. Every single one is nothing but a personal attack, and there isn't a reasonable excuse for any of those comments to have been made.

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So shut the ****ing games down if we're all stuck so far up our own asses that we have to tow the line get it axed. You're ****ing waiting for it to happen anyway.

quote:

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Originally posted by JoshSherman:
So shut the ****ing games down if we're all stuck so far up our own asses that we have to tow the line get it axed. You're ****ing waiting for it to happen anyway.

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quote:

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Originally posted by JoshSherman:
So shut the ****ing games down if we're all stuck so far up our own asses that we have to tow the line get it axed. You're ****ing waiting for it to happen anyway.

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No, I do NOT want to see the games shut down. I DO want people to stop being jerks. It's not unreasonable in the least to expect people to be able to play a game meant for fun without having to worry about being the target of a personal attack.

__________________
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All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

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Most of the time, when it's done, it's done because someone attacked someone, which, in the attackee's mind, was a bad argument, and they for some reason resort to saying that person sucks at the game.

If you have ever noticed, I ride the line fairly nicely, and the worst thing I've said since my run-in with Liq back in the day (years ago) is "Wow you make the worst arguments ever." According to nder, this is ok to say. However, saying "You are the worst argument maker ever" apparently is not, BUT IT MEANS THE EXACT SAME THING. We are dealing with semantics, because the above two things say EXACTLY the same thing, but one (the first one) can be construed, according to nder's logic, as being "game related." It's dumb to continually look into the game and try and separate the two, because personal attacks and this game are fairly inseparable just with the nature of the game (see below).

Personally, I kind of agree with Josh.

Personal attacks happen, but when they are happening for the pure sake of a personal attack, it's unwarranted. It's such a fine line though that it's hard to enforce, and will never be cleared up permanently because the nature of the game is attack and defense, and when people continually latch on to WEAK arguments, it's hard not to call them a dunce.

My $.02

EDIT: Did I mention I take the personal attacks with a grain of salt? It means I said something that got under someone's skin, and can be used in a game that depends on manipulation and query. It's part of the game.

Also, the reason I have not been playing is not because of this whole debauchle, but mainly because I just (1) haven't had time to invest and (2) I'd rather play mafia scum because of the layout of the games.

Again, the time frame in which MOTL's games last is just geared for the mafia to win every time.

quote:

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Originally posted by ryan2754:
If you have ever noticed, I ride the line fairly nicely, and the worst thing I've said since my run-in with Liq back in the day (years ago) is "Wow you make the worst arguments ever." According to nder, this is ok to say. However, saying "You are the worst argument maker ever" apparently is not, BUT IT MEANS THE EXACT SAME THING. We are dealing with semantics, because the above two things say EXACTLY the same thing, but one (the first one) can be construed, according to nder's logic, as being "game related." It's dumb to continually look into the game and try and separate the two, because personal attacks and this game are fairly inseparable just with the nature of the game (see below).

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Actually, both of those would be wrong. Saying "That argument is bad because x, y and z" is fine. Saying that they make the worst arguments ever or that they are the worst argument maker ever are essentially the same thing and out of line.

This isn't rocket science, guys. Attacking a statement and attacking the person are different things, only one of which is related to the game. If people can't separate the game from the players, then we just won't have the games.

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All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

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quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
Actually, both of those would be wrong. Saying "That argument is bad because x, y and z" is fine. Saying that they make the worst arguments ever or that they are the worst argument maker ever are essentially the same thing and out of line.

This isn't rocket science, guys. Attacking a statement and attacking the person are different things, only one of which is related to the game. If people can't separate the game from the players, then we just won't have the games.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tranderas:
Again, I'm with Josh. Just shut them down. You seem to be hunting for a reason to and what you consider out of line is almost as strict as what the MTGS mods censor/warn for.

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Yes, expecting people to not be arrogant pricks while playing a game is certainly hunting for a reason to shut the games down.

Believe me, I want the game to continue. I want people to be able to have fun. The problem is, many people don't enjoy an environment where personal attacks and non-game-related mean-spiritedness are allowed, and there simply is no good reason to allow it when the game definitely doesn't require it. This game used to be plenty of fun and enjoyable for all involved without the snarky nasty crap that's become more and more a part of the game the past few rounds.

__________________
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All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

Report rules violations.

quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:

Yes, expecting people to not be arrogant pricks while playing a game is certainly hunting for a reason to shut the games down.

Believe me, I want the game to continue. I want people to be able to have fun. The problem is, many people don't enjoy an environment where personal attacks and non-game-related mean-spiritedness are allowed, and there simply is no good reason to allow it when the game definitely doesn't require it. This game used to be plenty of fun and enjoyable for all involved without the snarky nasty crap that's become more and more a part of the game the past few rounds.

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And again, we disagree Jeff.

The snarkiness and mean-spiritedness of some people has been around since the game started. To a minor degree, some is needed in any game of this type. It shows dedication to, and passion for, the game. To that end, some of the comments you posted as inappropriate should be just fine- and again, they're no worse than what would be found on the PfS. Holding one thread to a higher standard of content than other threads in the same category feels wrong, especially when you have a thread being held to a much lower standard (the politics thread).

It is when people, such as ryan, fwy and PD, take it too far that action should be taken. My preferred action would simply be to ban the players that are trouble to the game; my theory is that if you present a more welcoming, mature game, you will attract more than enough replacements for those players.

As for ideas to improve the game, I propose the following changes. These are changes reflecting how the game works in chat room mafia games, easily found on many irc networks.

1) Present two roles on the side of the Cits: A "Detective" and a "bum". The detective has the power to kill a mafia or killer (see below) either he or the bum has checked; can check a player himself; or can protect a player from attack that round. If the Detective correctly protects a player from a kill, he kills the player that attempted to kill them. The Bum can merely perform checks.

Ex: Thror is the mafia leader, I'm the detective and Bernie is a cit. thror puts in to kill bernie; for my action for the turn, I protect Bernie. When the night comes, thror tries to kill bernie, but fails and is killed. Essentially, thror went to kill Bernie, but I was there with my rifle and shot him first.

2) We introduce a third team, represented by a single player, the Killer. The killer has two actions: Kill and Voodoo. Kill acts as the mafia's kill action, and can target either cits or mafia. Voodoo can only be used once per game, and kills both the target and anyone who performs any action on the target. The Killer only wins when he ends the day as the only survivor, or as the survivor with one role without the ability to kill (ie the Homeless Bum or a Citizen)

Example of Voodoo: I am the Killer, thror is the Homeless Bum, and Bernie is a citizen. I use my Voodoo action for the game to Voodoo Bernie. Thror performs a check on Bernie. My voodoo would kill Bernie, and also thror. Essentially, when thror goes to check up on Bernie, he finds Bernie has been cursed and suffers the curse himself.

quote:

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Originally posted by Tranderas:
And again, we disagree Jeff.

The snarkiness and mean-spiritedness of some people has been around since the game started.

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This is 100% absolutely positively false.

__________________
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All your Gruul Nodorogs are belong to me. Trade them to me, please!

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quote:

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Originally posted by nderdog:
This is 100% absolutely positively false.

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