quote:

---

Originally posted by WCFmo:
Other things
2. MAB - dead to the world right now, moving him up my suspicious list.

---

I will state this one last time. Real life is just a little bit more important than this game. I check when I can, but the past week and change has been beyond nuts, most of it out of my control. My previous statements were good for everyone else and now you want to rip me for it?

You know what, I don't care, vote me off if you really have a problem with me being at least minimally vocal compared to those who have done nothing.

My vote is submitted. If I'm in the mood, I'll share it.

{Summary: Get off my back for my play style and lack of posting due to real life}

__________________
MOTL's Most Likely to Play in the Pro Tour - Three Years Running for 2007, 2008, and 2009
(My Nationals)

Co-Founder of Long Island's Newest Vintage Team - Team of Towers

quote:

---

Originally posted by fwybwed:
I am so voting you....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MAB_Rapper:

My vote is submitted. If I'm in the mood, I'll share it.

Summary: Get off my back for my play style and lack of posting due to real life

---

That came out of nowhere...

Anyways, seems like it's dead this weekend, to all going to the Rise of the Eldrazi prerelease, good luck, etc. and that's where I'm going.

Does anyone know if FWY is ever this active? I haven't played very many games with him, but his back and forth with me seems OOC based on the few games I have played with him.

Also, I started collecting information on everyone who posted something about jaz, it's 17 pages...so I'm gonna edit it, if anyone wants me to post the unedited version let me know. Ummm, I'm gonna take a break, this took like 20 to 40 minutes to get all the quotes and edit it to a somewhat readable form...I didn't do the votes quite yet, but maybe later. Taking a break for now -

Jaz – Votes Coolion (picked by TJ)

WCFmo – Doesn’t your daughter usually pick?

WCFmo – List of players who we have haven’t heard from, Jaz listed (list of players who we hadn’t heard from at that time - Tran, Volc, Coolio, Train, B77, and Zak.

Dakrum – asks Jaz whether kill was random – asks only Jaz, ryan, coolio, and MAB for some reason whether kill was random.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ryan2754:
WCFmo - Don't like his bone picking against Jaz on why TJ over Amala. She's done this before. But seems like he's kidding, so letting it go. IIoA. Tags along with dakrum on gawain. He then attacks me for not being talkative, and votes me. Very poor reasoning, but whatever. I'm not going to slip into OMGUS.
…
Why did you pick out Jaz/ryan/coolio/MAB for asking for thoughts? Again, just a question I'd like answered. Possible subtle buddying with WCFmo midway through page 4.
…
Jazaray - Nothing.
Zakman86 - vote of Trand as seconding of "troll." Very interesting.
…
{SUSPECT: fwy (weird posts, no reasoning)}
{SUSPECT: MM (IIoA)}
{SUSPECT:coolio (need more from you, plus explanation of votes)}
{SUSPECT: gawain (hiding behind stats, some good logic from dakrum)}
{SUSPECT: MAB, Jaz (strictly because I have no read)}

---

quote:

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Originally posted by dakrum:
The only posts I had from Jazaray and you were your individual vote. I knew that the game only started two days ago at the time, so I wasn't worried if anybody responded or not - I just wanted some more participation from the players. Again, I just didn't want round one to be a total waste.

---

MM – Used the Jaz method to pick his first vote (FWY)

quote:

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Originally posted by MeddlingMage:
OK, so, Bernek was a good guy. He voted for WCFmo. Now he would have had 1 look before he died. Just saying.

I don't think that he would have looked at him 1st though, but at this stage of the game, (being early, I mean) it may be worth it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WCFmo:
Re: Suspicions of FWY - I think it is a misstatement to say that he had no reason to vote for B77, I could tell why he was voting for him, the reason I am suspicious of him was due to his back and forth b/w bernek that precipitated his vote.

@ Ryan - I noticed you missed a couple of people in your post, why is that? Or are you not suspicious of those remaining players?
…
Also, I would like to note, we still don't have a NK yet...which is odd, considering the amount of people who have posted so far. Could be our doc is holding us up, or it could be that the trolls are holding us up. Without actually going back to check, I don't really recall seeing much from the following people - Battle_of_Twits, iliketrain, Jazaray, zakman86. I apologize if I'm incidentally calling out our doc, but one of those people is the wolf leader IMHO. Out of those, zak hasn't really been posting much (much as he did when him, mystic and XPR were mafia), that'd be my guess as of now.
….

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ryan2754:
Actually, I think it's a really good thing you pointed this out, MM.

Now I know everyone is gonna be dead set on me, but I think someone is definitely playing a cruel trick.
…
However, do I find other players fully capable of playing a dirty rotten trick on me? Yes. MM, MAB, and Jaz come to mind. I wouldn't put it past Zak or even Gawain to do it. Hell, MM pointing it out is sort of intriguing in the least.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WCFmo:
Speaking of Jaz - where is she?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by OGB:
@ryan: Do you think that, if MM was a troll, he would throw the framing you strategy in our faces? Jaz posted her one random vote, which seems typical Jaz. MAB, I have no clue on, never played with him before.

I haven't the slightest clue how to begin strategizing this game. At this point I would say let's start weeding out the silents but there are much more than usual that I'm not sure that'll be effective. On the other hand, we have very little to go on

What are people's feelings on policy lynches? .

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tranderas:
3) We've had one person who voted but has yet to post to explain her vote (Jazaray).
{SUMMARY: Explains absence, tries to make heads and tails of things.}
{SUSPECT: Volcanon (not contributing, late to the party)}
{SUSPECT: Jazaray (voting without sharing logic behind vote)}
{VOTING: Jazaray}

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Zakman86:
Jaz ALWAYS votes random R1.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dakrum:
@Zakman86 - are you not suspicious of iliketrain and Jaz at this point in time?

@MAB - why not go after iliketrain for not posting at all? What about the other silents? Also -

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zakman86:
I wouldn't say that I'm not suspicious of the two of them, but I remember reading MAB_Rapper playing in older games, and coolio and junichi were both old-school players. Jaz is playing her usual game and iliketrain likely doesn't have the knowledge of the older players to dissect like that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dakrum:
The longer this game goes without any contributions from her, the more I'm concerned that Jazaray is a troll. If she was an MOTLer, I don't think she would have many problems with contributing more to the game since there is plenty to work off of now. Then again, I haven't seen much of anything from her at all on these boards since round two started.

My leading suspect at this point in time is Zakman86 and I'm about as suspicious of Gawain now as I was round one. However, if Jazaray doesn't contribute in a considerable way soon, she may win my vote for next round anyway.

{SUMMARY: where is Jaz, reveals leading suspect}

---

I don't like your logic here dak, weren't you opposed to going after silents? Also, what I’m not comfortable with is that Gawain hit the back burner for you. So I’m just a bit more suspicious of you.

quote:

---

Originally posted by OGB:
Is this game even worth continuing? I feel like the next 4-5 votes are going to be for silents, and if that's all we have to go on, then frankly that's not very fun. I'm committed to play, but unless people start posting more, this game will go downhill very quickly.

@FWY - where are you? I feel like you've been way more talkative in the games we've played together in the past.
{SUSPECT: VOL, JAZ, TRA, ILT, FWY}
{VOTING: VOL}

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WCFmo:
@ Tranderas - Obviously I think if you had your way you'd like to get Jaz out first, but I think a volcannon vote is better here. Does anyone know if she has been posting outside the thread? I don't recall seeing anything by her, and she most likely started up her census job (IDK, she mentioned she was starting it soon in the last game). She's seemed to be busy lately with life, for what its worth.
{SUMMARY: Discuss FWY, VOLC, JAZ, ZAK}
{SUSPECT: ZAK, GAQ}
{VOTING: VOLCANNON}

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dakrum:
Jaz's lack of input is worrisome. She can provide a lot of useful analysis (even if it isn't at this exact point in time) if she is a villager, but this amount of silence is OOC for her and her usual post count.

I would like to see how the fwybwed/WCFmo argument pans out before making any further comments about it.

{SUMMARY: responds a bit more about suspects}

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gawain:
And in my defense, I'm REALLY busy right now.
…
As to suspicions at this point, Volcanon, Jaz, and Zakman are all raising red flags for me. As has been pointed out already, Zak has mirrored a few of my posts, which I'm sure we all remember was how he was nabbed R1 a few games ago. He's a smart guy though, I have to wonder if he would make the same mistake twice. That aside, he is nonetheless generally non-contributory at this point and I've got my eye on him. Jaz is just plain quiet, but that could be the Census thing. Jaz, can you confirm whether or not your new job has started up yet?
…
I don't know enough about Tran's playstyle to make a judgment call based on the few posts he has made so far, but this sounds to me like someone who is pretty convinced he's onto something. So...where is the evidence? Where is the analysis? It's just bold, declarative statement with nothing to back it up, and coming from a guy whose post-count makes mine look positively prolific this game. Unless something comes up to sway me otherwise, my vote is for Volcanon this round.

{SUMMARY: Lists suspects, explains low post count, calls out Volcanon}
{SUSPECT: Zak, Jaz}
{VOTING: Volcanon}

P.S. I think everyone is right that iliketrain just "joined" as a gag and didn't expect to actually play, but are we gonna just let him cruise through to the end dead-weight style? Might be a candidate for a replacement if not necessarily a lynch.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ryan2754:
I as well despise silents, but there are a few classes - those who normally don't post and aren't posting, those who don't seem to be paying attention at all, and those who normally do post and aren't posting.

First group: BoT (asked for replacement)
Second group: iliketrain, Trand, Volcanon
Third group: Jaz

Of the following, I don't like Jaz's silence. I understand people have reallife issues, but I have the worst time getting a read on her. I like my chances that if Tran, Volc, and ILT start posting that I can get a semi-decent read, as they all have done something in just two rounds when they do post of possibly building their own grave.
{VOTING: Jaz (silence/inability to read)}

---

I don’t like this vote, really at that point it was between Tran and Volc, he should have had an opinion as to who was more likely a troll and he should have given it, rather than vote jaz. The jaz vote removes him from any pile analysis and when he takes out jaz he can call it a double bluff. I did read his explanation that was insightful, but at least give us an opinion one way or the other. If your not gonna vote either, help the cits by telling us at that time who you think is a troll.

quote:

---

Originally posted by MeddlingMage:
Volcanon has been pretty silent, so I can understand some votes towards him. However, I bet there is a bandwagon jumping troll in there.
My guess, and my vote is going to be for WCFmo.
I have been suspicious of him for a bit now.

However, IU am still slightly suspicious of ryan still. His voting for Jazaray, after all the announced votes for Volcanon seems to be purposely avoiding the pile on.

{Summary: Thinks WCFmo is a troll, ryan is on radar still}
{Voting: WCFmo}

---

[big]Nor do I like this post by MM. He addressed it, but just keeps him on the radar. He votes me to ‘avoid’ the pile himself…quite odd indeed.

quote:

---

Originally posted by dakrum:
I'd be much more concerned about Jaz if she didn't post much next round or managed to get a vote in for this round without giving a good bit of analysis, but I will stick my argument and principles in that I hate policy lynches and I will not be voting for Jaz at this time.

fwy's logic behind this vote doesn't make much sense either. He's concerned about the way other people bring information about previous games into account in the early rounds and then votes for Zakman86 based off of him mirroring ONE post. I think it is a bit hypocritical, but it could just be fwy trying to make a point about other players' posts and logic as well. Combined with his reasoning for the last vote though, I am suspicious of him.
…
Med to Med-Low: Zakman86 (reasons stated above), Gawain (reasons stated above)
Med-Low: Jazaray (complete silence)
Low: fwybwed (arguments)
{VOTING: Zakman86 (med - previously stated reasons)}

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dakrum:
I will be voting for Zakman86 again.

I'm not head-over-heels suspicious of ryan2754, but I can't think of a reason why he wouldn't be sharing some more of his findings and trying his best to scumhunt just in case he does get removed. I could be overreacting to the dialogue and it could be just a simple mistake, but I've seen enough to garner suspicion.

Current suspect list is now this (since I'm going to put Jazaray at a completely neutral position for now):

Medium: Zakman86, Gawain
Medium-Low: NONE
Low: ryan2754, fwybwed

{SUMMARY: reveals list}
{SUSPECT: Gawain (med)}
{SUSPECT: ryan2754 (low - taking chance, previous interaction and vote)}
{SUSPECT: fwybwed (low)}
{VOTING: Zakman86 (med)}

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ryan2754:
…
Long defensive post by Ryan2754
….

---

I liked rereading this, very insightful.

quote:

---

Originally posted by dakrum:
There's no fingers that need to be pointed at players here. However, keep in mind that I DO NOT SUSPECT VOLCANON, and right now he is pretty much guaranteed to be lynched. I'm in a pickle where I get to see somebody I'm about 90% sure isn't a troll lynched all while I gain a good bit of suspicion in a game that's spiraling down the pit of silent lynching or finger pointing. Instead of most likely being down one MOTLer, you're most likely going to be down two if I don't do something.

Jaz isn't as hard as anybody else to read once you figure her out. It takes a few rounds, but there are plenty of ways.

I will put my vote back to Zakman86. Do whatever you want ryan2754.

{VOTING: Zakman86}

---

1) Why did you vote for Zakman86 and not be truly suspicious of him now? Did you find something you thought was MOTLer-like?

2) Can you tell me why you are suspicious of Gawain and myself? (If you want to re-hash your suspicions of WCFmo, then that's fine since I had asked you about all three earlier - however you want to do it is fine).

Edit - guess what I forgot?

quote:

---

Originally posted by WCFmo:
Dakrum – asks Jaz whether kill was random – asks only Jaz, ryan, coolio, and MAB for some reason whether kill was random.

I don't like your logic here dak, weren't you opposed to going after silents? Also, what I’m not comfortable with is that Gawain hit the back burner for you. So I’m just a bit more suspicious of you.

---

Could you show me the random nightkill asking please - maybe I've missed it? You might be referring to this:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dakrum:
I'm dumb. Scratch putting any weight on whether it's a random vote or not - the rest of my argument still holds though. I won't edit it any further because I generally don't like to edit posts.

Jaz/ryan/coolio/MAB - thoughts?

---

But I was implying that it doesn't matter whether Zakman86 or BoT (or anybody else for that matter) was casting a random vote, not that junichi was a random kill. ryan2754 asked me about the "Jaz/ryan/coolio/MAB" question earlier as well.

Jazaray usually has an average post count, used to be considerably silent in the first few rounds, and used that as a strategy. It made it near impossible to catch her as a baddie until round 4 at the earliest. She isn't a completely "silent" player per se, but if she was a troll, then we could have ended up on a very bad goose chase that would have probably led us to lynching MOTLers. I think that forcing some action was the best thing to do even though she was being silent.

I've also never truly put Gawain on the back burner - I've had him as a "medium" suspect for the entire game (either first or second).

Edit: Let me ask you a question then: who do you want to go after - Gawain or Zakman86? I don't think it makes a huge difference what order they go in - what's the worry?

quote:

---

Originally posted by WCF:
Does anyone know if FWY is ever this active? I haven't played very many games with him, but his back and forth with me seems OOC based on the few games I have played with him.

---

So tiring of you trying herd....we have played 2 games together...game 1: You were Mafia and were caught easily... game 2: You had no info on me except 2 post and called me incosistant...lol and I was wagoned on...I was out round 1.

so you can not say you have any information in regards to my playstyle what so ever...

@Dakrum

Question 1: I do suspect Zak for mirrioring another players post...but thats all I have on him....I only use 3 suspects at a time I dont not go over board as it creates distraction and I dont want that. So saying that, my suspicion on Zak and lowered do to you and WCF's buddying posts and WCF tryin to herd everyone. You cant say a person "truly" suspicious of anyone either you are or you are not....

Question 2: My suspicion of You and Gawain is that both you and WCF voted for him because he had some bad arguments and logic. but now you both have dropped him off your radar...he did come back after that with a clean post of defense which seems he may have had a coach...

You also created a small scene to vote yourself off as a favor for the MOTLers but you knew for a fact that the poeple of MOTL had chosen the 2 already on the block and you would have not been voted at all except for your one vote which would have been your own...this to me says that you are trying to look like a good guy and use it to your advantage...

this is a recap if you 2 want to keep posting herding posts and ask negative questions you should just read previous posts ok thanks

I have a question for you

@Dakrum based on the weakness of information on myself and others in WCF's posts and his answer to my questions do you find him suspicious at all...

quote:

---

Originally posted by fwybwed:
Question 1: I do suspect Zak for mirrioring another players post...but thats all I have on him....I only use 3 suspects at a time I dont not go over board as it creates distraction and I dont want that. So saying that, my suspicion on Zak and lowered do to you and WCF's buddying posts and WCF tryin to herd everyone. You cant say a person "truly" suspicious of anyone either you are or you are not....

Question 2: My suspicion of You and Gawain is that both you and WCF voted for him because he had some bad arguments and logic. but now you both have dropped him off your radar...he did come back after that with a clean post of defense which seems he may have had a coach...

You also created a small scene to vote yourself off as a favor for the MOTLers but you knew for a fact that the poeple of MOTL had chosen the 2 already on the block and you would have not been voted at all except for your one vote which would have been your own...this to me says that you are trying to look like a good guy and use it to your advantage...

this is a recap if you 2 want to keep posting herding posts and ask negative questions you should just read previous posts ok thanks

I have a question for you

@Dakrum based on the weakness of information on myself and others in WCF's posts and his answer to my questions do you find him suspicious at all...

Are you willing to vote for him this round to see if I am remotely correct...

---

Post? I thought it was "posts and responses". What's the harm in him being on your suspect list?

quote:

---

Originally posted by fwybwed:
So enlighten us how is that the key and key to what may I ask...you cant state an answer with out giving one...

You cant say you forgot my playstyle already....or that you dont really know me as a player when you state traits of my playstyle last ww game ...BUT then you switch the tone and try to reverse it by questioning me on my vote...its like you are trying to avoid my question why is that?

Just so you know Ill be voting for Zak...as I pointed out above he seems to be mirrior gwain in responses and posts....

---

You actually had a great chance to vote for me yet you still voted for Zakman86. If you thought it was fake, you should have voted me off immediately. Did your troll friends tell you to wait until after Zakman86 or WCFmo received a banhammer so you could get me in a later round?

No fwy, I will NOT vote WCFmo because I'm more suspicious of you than him and I'm really beginning to think that this is a gigantic set-up.

Edit - since I forgot the summary tag again and messed up the bold tags, I might as well address a question that I missed too - sorry about that fwy.

Right now, I would say that I have a neutral or slightly MOTL read on WCFmo. It's not out of the question that he's a troll, but I don't think that's the case at this moment.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tranderas:
WCFmo, could you provide the tl;dr version of your post? Like a summary or something?

{Summary: Tranderas is confused by the big wall of text.}

---

Haha, I'll try to make a shorter one but that is the edited version. I'm tired, I dropped after going 2-2 in the prerelease, I got an Eldrazi Temple and Student of Warfare, but that was about it.

I'm gonna go eat and pass out, not necessarily in that order.

Trand, that's fine if you think I was being overdefensive, but I like defending myself in a game like this. It's the most fun portion of the game, especially against weak arguments. People on this site in particular are followers, and a lot of the time just see someone else's argument and run with it, even if they are bad arguments. Thus, I play to quell the horrible argument before it gains a head of steam. Seems pretty sound to me.

WCF, you can hate my Jaz vote all you want. I vote for who I think is most likely a troll/mafia, not who is in the leading two bandwagons who, in my course of the game, MIGHT POSSIBLE be a troll. If you know how to do vote analysis (not PILE analysis), you will see that what you call "random" votes are actually able to be analyzed, often moreso than piles as people more heavily scrutinize them. WHat you are saying is you don't like my random voting away from piles, so you are suspicious of me because of playstyle?
Interesting.
Outside of this, I'm done defending my stance on my voting of Jaz. The trolls are just trying to make me look worse by revealing Jaz as cit. Enough said.

When it comes to Zakman86's post mirroring, I don't think he's mirrored much of anything actually. Bernek77 used the term "old-school" twice before he was killed and I remember PD using that term to describe players in past games as well. I found his description of iliketrain to be suspicious, but nothing else in that post was a mirror of anything else already said. I was also incorrect about the fact that his vote was random and that fact shouldn't matter at that point in time.

I suspect Zakman86 less than I did earlier. I'm still suspicious of his description of iliketrain and the potential fallacy and of his lack of contribution and strong cases though. Another thing to note is that he believes that Tranderas makes a good policy lynch yet admits that he isn't a fan of them.

However, the case I presented against Gawain from round one still holds. I don't know the Gawain that would not have looked back at Bernek's posts (and even if he didn't have much time, I don't see how at least mentioning it would have taken much of it). This is rather worrisome. On a gut level basis (which is just that - a gut level thought) I think that something is very fishy about the way he has generated his reasoning.

Another thing that I saw was that he ALSO mentioned that Zakman86 was mirroring multiple posts. It might be an honest mistake, but it's something to note.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gawain:
I can't really argue with you, I SHOULD have been all over looking back at his posts.

As to suspicions at this point, Volcanon, Jaz, and Zakman are all raising red flags for me. As has been pointed out already, Zak has mirrored a few of my posts, which I'm sure we all remember was how he was nabbed R1 a few games ago. He's a smart guy though, I have to wonder if he would make the same mistake twice. That aside, he is nonetheless generally non-contributory at this point and I've got my eye on him. Jaz is just plain quiet, but that could be the Census thing. Jaz, can you confirm whether or not your new job has started up yet?

---

To make this short, I'm not as suspicious of Zakman86 as I was but my suspicion of Gawain is a tad bit higher. I am not declaring a vote right now since there have very few posts so far this round, but I think that it is better that I say this now.

So...with that being said, help us find a troll and quit being so defensive.

As it stands, I'm exhausted as I had relatives come in town today. Gotta do some work and then go to bed, but I know that gawain usually talks more than this (or at least he did last game) - he says he has had work issues and is traveling, I'll believe that for now. I'll try to run through the thread and find a vote tomorrow, but I'm anxious to see who ryan votes for.

@ Tranderas - sorry, didn't get the cliffs notes done yet.

quote:

---

Originally posted by dakrum:
Another thing to note is that he believes that Tranderas makes a good policy lynch yet admits that he isn't a fan of them.

---

Where did I say that I supported Trand as a policy lynch? I said Trand was a troll, not that he was a good policy lynch.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ryan2754:
The trolls are just trying to make me look worse by revealing Jaz as cit. Enough said.

---

I disagree in that I think they already made it completely obvious that you were the target of the frame-up. Killing Jaz/Liq is just a case where they wanted to remove the best player knowing the risk that they could have run into a doctor save.

If that nightkill (and the two before it) mean anything, it's that we are clearly on the wrong track or they believe that the villagers won't be able to figure out who the trolls are (even if two of the trolls are WCFmo/Tranderas/Gawain/Zakman86).

Take this as you will, but there has been so little data to catch OGB, MAB, MM, hilikuS, or iliketrain as trolls up to this point that I think that at least 1 of them are trolls (I would favor that 2 of them are trolls but I'm not completely sure since I'm still suspicious of fwy, Gawain, and Zak to some extent).

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zakman86:
If I was the Troll Leader, the Hack would have been in already. I've been busy, but not so busy that I'd hold up the game, especially since I was on right about the time the ban got posted.

When it comes to you, WCF... I like that you're playing, I don't like that you try to herd everyone.

Waiting for the NK to post any further analysis.

---

WIFOM out the yin yang. Also, an excellent, excellent bit of it for a troll to bust out with. Hold off on the NK, pop in and say you would have no excuse for doing so since you're obviously active right now, then slide it in to Josh a few hours or what have you later and come out looking squeaky clean. Also, this statement leaves no room for you being anything but the Troll Leader. While that may be what those who suspect you believe you are, it's entirely possible that you're just a very influential underling. This is the first of your posts that has really stuck out to me as genuinely suspicious.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ryan2754:
Trand, you really don't seem to be paying attention.

My feud/back and forth recently has been with dakrum, not WCFmo.

WCFmo and gawain continue to suspect me, but I have already defended myself from them.

---

For what it's worth my suspicion of you is less than what it was earlier in the game, though not by much. You seem to have dropped into the background a bit, which is a classic maneuver for dodging heat. Further, it has been mentioned that the Trolls seem to be nailing silents/semi-silents, and what better place to hide from suspicion than in the group of supposed potential victims? You've said yourself on multiple occasions that you like to play a bit dangerously when you're a baddie, just to keep things interesting. I think it's just the sort of move you might make. Again though, and to be clear, you're talking less than at the beginning, which means I have less to go on, and all I can work with is the actual lack of conversation itself.

quote:

---

Originally posted by fwybwed:

Yes Liq has been hacked....good analysis...I suspected as much...I figured the kill this round would be far and away from anything been talked about in all discussions...

Voting WCF...

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This strikes me as 100% disingenuous. If you figured the kill would be far away from what anyone was discussing, why didn't you mention it BEFORE the kill happened? And further, since a large majority of the discussion was fueled by you, is it not fair to say that NOT discussing certain people pushed them closer to the chopping block, thereby making you indirectly responsible for their deaths (since you so strongly suspected that the kill would be a more quiet/obscure player)?

quote:

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Originally posted by dakrum:

What is your opinion of OGB and MAB? They've posted enough to "appear" active at this point, right?

In addition to that, how can two info lynches help the town over taking shots in the dark? All of the villagers/MOTLers votes are essentially shots in the dark anyway (although every MOTLer tries to make the best vote that they can of course).

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To answer your first question, OGB and MAB. OGB to me has been pretty much par for the course for OGB. I've never noticed him to be a particularly heavy poster in previous games, though I can't put my finger on how many he and I have played together now (4 maybe?). He seems to offer some useful insights and the questions he has asked seem well-crafted and to the point, though if anything were to stick out as suspicious to me regarding OGB at this point it would be just how carefully crafted his posts seem to be. He had kind of skipped under my radar until you brought this up, but looking back I don't see much that stands out.

There is even less to go on with MAB, though what's there is interesting. He seems very confrontational this game in the two or three posts his made, saying essentially "this is what I have to offer and if you don't like it you can just suck it up and cope." Almost flagrantly non-contributory, if that's even possible. I'm thinking he joined as a gag and was caught with his pants down when the game actually started up, but the question is does he have a role or not? I feel that since this has been a pseudo-gag game from the start, the trolls might be taking bigger risks playstyle-wise than they normally would, just for the sheer fun of it. MAB's current style would certainly fit that bill. I realize this is all WIFOM, but that's about all I have to go on with him :/

As to the info lynches, I don't advocate two this late in the game. If ryan gets lynched regardless at some point (as Liq should have been last game and wasn't), then we're going to have a lot to go on from there. The problem is, we're coming up on crunch time soon enough. I almost feel like if an info lynch, or a "this player is too dangerous to be left alive" lynch is gonna happen, it needs to happen this round or not at all. As to my reference that lynching you or ryan at that point in time would have been a shot in the dark, I was simply saying that the amount of evidence/suspicion against the two of you at that point in time was greatly outweighed by your general usefulness to the town as generators of conversation. Conversation is still useful later in the round, of course, but it begins to become an exponentially more dangerous and less affordable luxury as time goes on.

quote:

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Originally posted by fwybwed:
You call those 2 measly posts....one which was not even individually directed towards Bernek77 WAGONING....

oh man that is weak...

Show me where i stated I would be the NK....I know you cant..yet you say I did...

as for the rest of your post...nice try to reverse the role hahaha

I am so voting you....

and you know who my other suspects are...so why ask...

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Again, completely disingenuous post here. Two posts up you say that you hate the idea that the back and forth between you and WCFmo is bad for the town, but you just can't let these few niggling questions go. WCFmo responds immediately with a post wherein he essentially tries to bow out gracefully and give you the same option (though still can't resist a few jabs, I'll admit), and then you respond with this, the nature of which makes it seem as though you had never even noted that this kind of bickering is anti-town. Though I may find later examples in the thread of this back and forth escalating and getting even WORSE for the town, it's at this point that I think I need to point something out. WCFmo is a relative "rookie" to these games. This is what, his 3rd? 4th? We've seen from him so far a very eager player who wants to get down and dirty, mix it up, challenge precedents and stimulate conversation. That's exactly what he's done this round. He knows fundamentally that this kind of bickering is anti-town, but he's still green enough (in my opinion) to where it would be difficult for him to abstain from rising to the challenge when baited. You have no such excuse Fwyb. You are a damned seasoned veteran of many, many games. It might be more entertaining for you to get in there and throw some curveballs, but your experience should show you unequivocally that this sort of behavior is 100% anti-town. You are tunneling and you are provoking pointless arguments, and since you have to know better, that leads me to believe that you must be doing it purposefully. Major, major suspicion points garnered for Fwyb in my book at this point. Probably where my vote is going.

quote:

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Originally posted by MAB_Rapper:
I will state this one last time. Real life is just a little bit more important than this game. I check when I can, but the past week and change has been beyond nuts, most of it out of my control. My previous statements were good for everyone else and now you want to rip me for it?

You know what, I don't care, vote me off if you really have a problem with me being at least minimally vocal compared to those who have done nothing.

My vote is submitted. If I'm in the mood, I'll share it.

{Summary: Get off my back for my play style and lack of posting due to real life}

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Thought I would just point this out as an example of what I was talking about regarding MAB earlier. Patently friggin' unhelpful. If you're so busy that you have to throw sand in people's faces when they call you out on a lack of posting, then just seek a replacement man, because this right here is just useless at best, and downright effin' scummy at worst.

quote:

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Originally posted by fwybwed:

Question 2: My suspicion of You and Gawain is that both you and WCF voted for him because he had some bad arguments and logic. but now you both have dropped him off your radar...he did come back after that with a clean post of defense which seems he may have had a coach...

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Ok, I can't let this one go. It's a completely personal, purposefully out of character (but genuinely me) response that has nothing to do with the game, and which I will not allow to color my list of suspects one bit, but I just can't let it go. You've played with me for how many games Fwyb? Do you take me for an idiot? Do you think I NEED a coach to formulate a well-thought out defensive response to an attack or suspicion against me? Or that I would accept someone's attempt to handle me? I'm frankly insulted by this post, and though I don't want to start a fight, I do want to make it clear that my posts and responses are 100% my own, 100% of the time.

quote:

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Originally posted by dakrum:

However, the case I presented against Gawain from round one still holds. I don't know the Gawain that would not have looked back at Bernek's posts (and even if he didn't have much time, I don't see how at least mentioning it would have taken much of it). This is rather worrisome. On a gut level basis (which is just that - a gut level thought) I think that something is very fishy about the way he has generated his reasoning.

Another thing that I saw was that he ALSO mentioned that Zakman86 was mirroring multiple posts. It might be an honest mistake, but it's something to note.

To make this short, I'm not as suspicious of Zakman86 as I was but my suspicion of Gawain is a tad bit higher. I am not declaring a vote right now since there have very few posts so far this round, but I think that it is better that I say this now.

{SUMMARY: explains suspicions of Zak/Gaw}

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Once again, I don't have much I can say except that I've just been insanely busy. I did not look back at Bernek's posts when I should have, and I did not read back through Zak's posts to see just exactly how many of them were mirroring, because I just didn't have the time or energy. My post count has been much lower than usual for the same reasons. I'm not the sort of person or player who would lie about real life time constraints to buy myself breathing room in this game. The amount of time and energy I have been able to dedicate thus-far is the amount of time and energy I can spare, and it will continue to be so. The only thing I can add is that I'm back from North Carolina now, so that 3-4 day lull in my posting is over, and you'll be hearing from me at least once a day again.

And I also have to briefly apologize for not posting this last night, but the drive took longer than expected and we didn't get home 'till almost 2:00 AM, at which point I was too exhausted to do anything but collapse.

So in summary, Fwyb has really jumped out to me in the last few days' worth of posting. I just really don't like the stubborness with which he is hammering away at WCFmo, despite that fact that he should really know better than to mire the town in a back and forth tunnel-fest. My other suspects still remain essentially the same, with a few minor fluctuations. I had hoped to have time for a player by player analysis at the end of this post, but I have to head off to work here in just a few minutes. I might have a chance to do it after work, elsewise it will have to wait until after the NK. My apologies if I missed anyone's questions, feel free to re-post or remind.

jes took one person to insight some bad logic and they jumped for it...but unlike WCF I am willing to fall for MOTL...

My vote is for MAB this round. His posts always come off as confrontational and it seems like he really isn't paying attention to the thread. We all have real lives, but it seems that only his is a problem.

{VOTING: MAB}

Page 6 thru part of 7

OGB
MM troll framing Ryan (typical jaz)
Weed out silents, but way too many.
? regarding whether we should policy lynch

Ryan
If MM framed, he'd let someone else stumble upon it
Trand may be lackey, not leader

Dak
Policy lynch bad of ryan, he's a good cit
Who did B77 scry?

ZAK
Don't underestimate trolls ryan
Trand - good policy lynch, not contributing
Ryan and VOlc are suspicoius

OGB
Dak - are you implying trolls knew B77 was cop

TRAN***
Ryan and WCF where ryan overreacted
Three no votes including TRAN
No explanation of vote by JAZ
VOL voted B77 after ban
Worried by no Jaz explanation & VOL vote

ZAK
Jaz always votes R1

MAB ***
Angry, I have a real life
VOLC - no posts, no value

DAK ***
Why aren't we scratching every bit of data of his posts?
Responds MAB, Coolio's vote was bad

TRAN
I overreact to bad arguments
Asks MM why he mentioned JUN/COOL thing (MM is suspicious)

GAW
Discuss B77 possible action
Agrees to look back at B77's posts

MM ***
Short response - Ryan changed positions quicly

ZAK ***
ILIKETRAIN doesn't have knowledge of older players

ZAK
Re: Ryan - could be a double bluff

Dak
Responds to ZAK ^^^, ILI hasn't posted

RYAN
Responds MM, I wanted to see commentary
Calls MM out for opinion (quit defelcting/stalling)

ZAK
Resp Dak, what does whether he posts effect opinion on him

VOL
Troll is TRAN, he's hiding something

DAK
How can Zak know ILI, ILI told us not very good at game

WCFMO
Zak's posts suspicious
MM is way too active v. last game
Gaw is suspicious
VOLC last post is wolfy
Re: Ryan, he might be cit
Leaning VOL/Zak

MM ***
Resp to WCF, get blasted for last game now I try
Resp to Ryan, WIFOM/double bluffs are common

ZAK
Resp to WCF about Salvation post

FWY ***
Quotes GAW/ZAK - Zak mirroring GAW

DAK
No input Jaz, she might be troll
Leading suspect - Zak, still suspicoius GAW

MAB ***
Resp to Dak, go after ILI b/c posted 3 times since 4/7
Get off my back for my playstyle, I've got a life

BoT ***
I must resign (finals)

OGB ***
Resp to MAB, ILI has posted in PFS, H/W
Ref' me when I was mafia - People who make non-sensical posts
Voting VOL - "and I am keeping all the silents on my suspect list."

WCFMO
Asks OGB about FWY playing OOC
Tells tran, jaz vote isn't good
Resp to Zak, pro tip don't live in Alabama

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Well, I'll get back to that later, I'm assuming you can guess that the posts I don't like have *** next to them. I don't know whether I like GAW going after FWY, or DAK backing off ZAK. As it stands, I got a metric ton of stuff to do, but I think that we really need to get ZAK.

I've seen Zak post, none of his posts this game resemble anything like that. I'm going to vote him. While I understand he's busy (hey, me too bro), I think all of us can find the time to make a post that is longer at least once in a while (even GAW did it). Also, I've added a couple of people to my suspect list.

{VOTE: ZAK}
{SUSPECT: GAW, MM, OGB, ILI}
{SUMMARY: Not enough time, voting zak, new suspects}

Of everything I re-read these are the things that still stand out:

1.) MM's mentioning the coolio/junichi thing without formulating an opinion. Gut still says this is shady.
2.) Gawain makes an extremely good point about zakman and WIFOM. It's almost completely pointless mentioning.
3.) I agree that fwy has been falling back into his old habits of posting, without any continuity to his posts. However, he has been under a lot of heat. Not making excuses, just my take on it.
4.) I agree I don't like Mab's response. Extremely confrontational. Again I don't think people use RL as an excuse to win when mafia, but it just happens where they do have RL and react like Mab to it.

For the record, I don't like hili's playing so far. Lacking compared to normal.

Above all, what bothers me most is fwy's most recent string of posts.
In addition, like said before, extreme lack of posting by Trand, MM, ILT, and OGB. I am almost completely sold that there is no way for the MOTLers to win this, but I will still try my damndest to find scum.

Of everything, the only thing I am sure about is this:
I find it highly unlikely gawain is a troll.

However, I still can't get my gut past what MM said and hasn't said. This is where my vote is going.

{SUSPECT: ILT, fwy, MM, MAB}
{VOTING: MM}